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External
Since: Nov 13, 2007
Posts: 74
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:19 am
Post subject: Looking for ways to improve my Paladin Tank
Archived from groups: alt>games>warcraft (more info?)
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Hello,
I'm still looking for ways to improve my Paladin in terms of tanking.
He's Prot specced, dinged level 64 yesterday evening with halfway decent
gear (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Vek%27lor&n=Mulder).
I tanked Blood Furnace yesterday (at that time still level 63) with the
following group: Holy Priest (63), Rogue (66), Shadow Priest (64) and
Warlock (63).
Was a pretty smooth run, no wipe with only the rogue dying once but I
still wasn't impressed with my performance. The group was a pug and
didn't make my live very easy. No focus fire, the warlock liked fearing
(How of Terror when I was fighting 3 mobs - couldn't manage to get them
all back after that) and the rogue kept stunning everything despite me
telling him not to.
I had to use the highest rank of consecration and still some mobs
escaped me. The group always killed the casters last, sapped the melee
target and I was really struggling to keep aggro.
Mid fight the mobs started running towards the shadow priest (not
always, but often enough), who must have done some nice damaged. The
warlock also got his fair share but overall his damage was still far
below mine - maybe he was casting searing pain all the time? Righteous
Defense didn't help at all, as they kept hitting the target pretty hard
so that I also had to judge Righteousness and cast Consecration to get
them back. When either one was on cooldown I could just stun the target
and hope it goes down fast.
It was the same with bosses, despite me starting with Avenger's Shield,
judging crusader and then continuing with Righteousness. In every boss
fight the mob at least once looked at the shadow priest, even if I got
aggro back very fast.
I noticed that it was much easier for me with big groups. When there
were mainly melee mobs I sometimes "accidentally" pulled two groups at
once. I needed more healing but received more mana this way and managed
to get solid aggro on all mobs.
The Felguard Annihilator were a nightmare, constantly changing targets
and charging into our cloth wearers. Enslavement lasted only a few
seconds and the warlock seemed to be unaware that he could re-enslave
the target. Had a really hard time with them even with using Exorcism.
Do I need more spell damage for my gear? I have around 120 with Wizard
Oil applied on the weapon, maybe I should get some enchants for the
gear? Money is an issue currently as I just bought an epic flyer and two
epic land mounts, so I'm broke right now. Where are the areas I can
improve?
Dirk |
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Since: Apr 30, 2007
Posts: 27
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:19 am
Post subject: Re: Looking for ways to improve my Paladin Tank [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On May 9, 10:19 am, Dirk <newsp... RemoveThis @cubeworld.net> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'm still looking for ways to improve my Paladin in terms of tanking.
> He's Prot specced, dinged level 64 yesterday evening with halfway decent
> gear (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Vek%27lor&n=Mulder).
>
> I tanked Blood Furnace yesterday (at that time still level 63) with the
> following group: Holy Priest (63), Rogue (66), Shadow Priest (64) and
> Warlock (63).
>
> Was a pretty smooth run, no wipe with only the rogue dying once but I
> still wasn't impressed with my performance. The group was a pug and
> didn't make my live very easy. No focus fire, the warlock liked fearing
> (How of Terror when I was fighting 3 mobs - couldn't manage to get them
> all back after that) and the rogue kept stunning everything despite me
> telling him not to.
>
> I had to use the highest rank of consecration and still some mobs
> escaped me. The group always killed the casters last, sapped the melee
> target and I was really struggling to keep aggro.
>
> Mid fight the mobs started running towards the shadow priest (not
> always, but often enough), who must have done some nice damaged. The
> warlock also got his fair share but overall his damage was still far
> below mine - maybe he was casting searing pain all the time? Righteous
> Defense didn't help at all, as they kept hitting the target pretty hard
> so that I also had to judge Righteousness and cast Consecration to get
> them back. When either one was on cooldown I could just stun the target
> and hope it goes down fast.
>
> It was the same with bosses, despite me starting with Avenger's Shield,
> judging crusader and then continuing with Righteousness. In every boss
> fight the mob at least once looked at the shadow priest, even if I got
> aggro back very fast.
>
> I noticed that it was much easier for me with big groups. When there
> were mainly melee mobs I sometimes "accidentally" pulled two groups at
> once. I needed more healing but received more mana this way and managed
> to get solid aggro on all mobs.
> The Felguard Annihilator were a nightmare, constantly changing targets
> and charging into our cloth wearers. Enslavement lasted only a few
> seconds and the warlock seemed to be unaware that he could re-enslave
> the target. Had a really hard time with them even with using Exorcism.
>
> Do I need more spell damage for my gear? I have around 120 with Wizard
> Oil applied on the weapon, maybe I should get some enchants for the
> gear? Money is an issue currently as I just bought an epic flyer and two
> epic land mounts, so I'm broke right now. Where are the areas I can
> improve?
>
> Dirk
Sounds like you did a good job keeping agro under these circumstances.
More spell dmg will give you more threat, so that will help hold some
agro.
Quick questions:
Did you have holy shield up?
Did you have Rigteous Fury up at all times?
Did the priest PW:shield you before the fight? - if so take that off,
as you generate agro when you get hit.
Sounds like you did well though, some people just don't understand
working as a group. You can tell the people who haven't done much
instancing as they still fight the mob the same way they do when they
are solo (Howl of Terror is a perfect example)
What I do sometimes when one person in the group is always stealing
agro, and not learning to control their output, is to Blessing of
Protection on them, hopefully they will notice the wings on their head
and stop doing as much dmg.
People need to realise that it's not a race to see who can do the most
agro but who has the most control, balance dmg output to tank threat
generation.
Forseti
Protection Pally
Not Enough Rage - Bronzebeard EU |
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Since: Nov 19, 2004
Posts: 1401
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:19 am
Post subject: Re: Looking for ways to improve my Paladin Tank [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 9 May, 10:19, Dirk <newsp....TakeThisOut@cubeworld.net> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'm still looking for ways to improve my Paladin in terms of tanking.
> He's Prot specced, dinged level 64 yesterday evening with halfway decent
> gear (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Vek%27lor&n=Mulder).
>
> I tanked Blood Furnace yesterday (at that time still level 63) with the
> following group: Holy Priest (63), Rogue (66), Shadow Priest (64) and
> Warlock (63).
>
> Was a pretty smooth run, no wipe with only the rogue dying once but I
> still wasn't impressed with my performance. The group was a pug and
> didn't make my live very easy. No focus fire, the warlock liked fearing
> (How of Terror when I was fighting 3 mobs - couldn't manage to get them
> all back after that) and the rogue kept stunning everything despite me
> telling him not to.
Paladins are good at holding aggro on multiple targets but that still
requires one target to be chosen as the main focus of your threat
generation. You can easily keep aggro against healing threat on
secondary targets but if someone goes and starts significantly hurting
them then they are going to go for them instead of you.
> I had to use the highest rank of consecration and still some mobs
> escaped me.
They would if people were hurting them - I guess that they never
actually went for the healer? Always went after the DPS?
> The group always killed the casters last, sapped the melee
> target and I was really struggling to keep aggro.
This is a leadership problem rather than a tanking problem I think.
Was there any marking done? The leader - and this is usually the tank
in my experience - should choose who to use CC on and they should also
decide the kill order. Mark the sap target, mark the first to die,
second to die etc. Explain the marking system at the start and again
when they ignore it. If they continue to ignore the marks then it's
up to you to decide whether to soldier on or leave them.
> It was the same with bosses, despite me starting with Avenger's Shield,
> judging crusader and then continuing with Righteousness. In every boss
> fight the mob at least once looked at the shadow priest, even if I got
> aggro back very fast.
If it was only the shadow priest that got aggro from the boss then
that's his fault. He needs to tone it down a little in order to not
get aggro.
A lot of people say that if one person pulls aggro then it's his fault
if everyone pulls aggro then it's the tanks fault. This is often a
good sign as to where the problem is but if all the dps are rubbish
and go all out on the wrong targets then there's not much the tank can
do.
It certainly seems like you did well - no wipes and only one death
despite the problems mentioned is a good result.
steve.kaye >> Stay informed about: Looking for ways to improve my Paladin Tank |
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Since: Apr 21, 2006
Posts: 697
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:19 am
Post subject: Re: Looking for ways to improve my Paladin Tank [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On May 9, 10:34 am, Kedge <Richard.Har... RemoveThis @arval.co.uk> wrote:
> On May 9, 10:19 am, Dirk <newsp... RemoveThis @cubeworld.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hello,
>
> > I'm still looking for ways to improve my Paladin in terms of tanking.
> > He's Prot specced, dinged level 64 yesterday evening with halfway decent
> > gear (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Vek%27lor&n=Mulder).
>
> > I tanked Blood Furnace yesterday (at that time still level 63) with the
> > following group: Holy Priest (63), Rogue (66), Shadow Priest (64) and
> > Warlock (63).
>
> > Was a pretty smooth run, no wipe with only the rogue dying once but I
> > still wasn't impressed with my performance. The group was a pug and
> > didn't make my live very easy. No focus fire, the warlock liked fearing
> > (How of Terror when I was fighting 3 mobs - couldn't manage to get them
> > all back after that) and the rogue kept stunning everything despite me
> > telling him not to.
>
> > I had to use the highest rank of consecration and still some mobs
> > escaped me. The group always killed the casters last, sapped the melee
> > target and I was really struggling to keep aggro.
>
> > Mid fight the mobs started running towards the shadow priest (not
> > always, but often enough), who must have done some nice damaged. The
> > warlock also got his fair share but overall his damage was still far
> > below mine - maybe he was casting searing pain all the time? Righteous
> > Defense didn't help at all, as they kept hitting the target pretty hard
> > so that I also had to judge Righteousness and cast Consecration to get
> > them back. When either one was on cooldown I could just stun the target
> > and hope it goes down fast.
>
> > It was the same with bosses, despite me starting with Avenger's Shield,
> > judging crusader and then continuing with Righteousness. In every boss
> > fight the mob at least once looked at the shadow priest, even if I got
> > aggro back very fast.
>
> > I noticed that it was much easier for me with big groups. When there
> > were mainly melee mobs I sometimes "accidentally" pulled two groups at
> > once. I needed more healing but received more mana this way and managed
> > to get solid aggro on all mobs.
> > The Felguard Annihilator were a nightmare, constantly changing targets
> > and charging into our cloth wearers. Enslavement lasted only a few
> > seconds and the warlock seemed to be unaware that he could re-enslave
> > the target. Had a really hard time with them even with using Exorcism.
>
> > Do I need more spell damage for my gear? I have around 120 with Wizard
> > Oil applied on the weapon, maybe I should get some enchants for the
> > gear? Money is an issue currently as I just bought an epic flyer and two
> > epic land mounts, so I'm broke right now. Where are the areas I can
> > improve?
>
> > Dirk
>
> Sounds like you did a good job keeping agro under these circumstances.
> More spell dmg will give you more threat, so that will help hold some
> agro.
>
> Quick questions:
>
> Did you have holy shield up?
> Did you have Rigteous Fury up at all times?
> Did the priest PW:shield you before the fight? - if so take that off,
> as you generate agro when you get hit.
>
> Sounds like you did well though, some people just don't understand
> working as a group. You can tell the people who haven't done much
> instancing as they still fight the mob the same way they do when they
> are solo (Howl of Terror is a perfect example)
>
> What I do sometimes when one person in the group is always stealing
> agro, and not learning to control their output, is to Blessing of
> Protection on them, hopefully they will notice the wings on their head
> and stop doing as much dmg.
>
> People need to realise that it's not a race to see who can do the most
> agro but who has the most control, balance dmg output to tank threat
> generation.
Exactly.
And Dirk, I hope you put BoS on everyone else? >> Stay informed about: Looking for ways to improve my Paladin Tank |
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Since: May 28, 2007
Posts: 194
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:19 am
Post subject: Re: Looking for ways to improve my Paladin Tank [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On May 9, 12:54 pm, Dirk <newsp....RemoveThis@cubeworld.net> wrote:
> Mark (newsgroups) wrote:
> > And Dirk, I hope you put BoS on everyone else?
>
> No, should have done this I think but then everyone is usually
> complaining. I only it on the rogue because of the level advantage he had.
I didn't tank much when I was lvl 64, but I always cast BoS on DPS
people on lvl 70. This gets more important on lvl 70, when DPS people
start getting better gear (while your gear concentrates on avoidance
and stamina). Hunters can be an exception, since they can clear aggro
and trapping is also easier if they can out-aggro the tank when
necessary.
You can do this after couple of pulls though. Buff people with their
favorite buffs and if they steal aggro often, cast BoS on them. BoS is
very important for shadow priests, because they are insane threat
generators. >> Stay informed about: Looking for ways to improve my Paladin Tank |
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Since: Apr 21, 2006
Posts: 697
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:19 am
Post subject: Re: Looking for ways to improve my Paladin Tank [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On May 9, 10:54 am, Dirk <newsp....DeleteThis@cubeworld.net> wrote:
> Mark (newsgroups) wrote:
> > And Dirk, I hope you put BoS on everyone else?
>
> No, should have done this I think but then everyone is usually
> complaining. I only it on the rogue because of the level advantage he had.
You're the tank, you call the shots as far as I'm concerned. Tanks are
hard to find for exactly the sort of reasons described in your
original post. Less than cooperative/intelligent PUG dps players make
life hard for tanks. Therefore, I recommend being more assertive. If
people want certain blessings except BoS, let them know that if they
pull aggro then you will switch to BoS on them. In any case, Shadow
priests are notorious for generating a lot of threat so it's not
surprising you lost aggro. Feral druid tanks generate very high threat
(I play one) and I have lost aggro to shadow priests at times. So BoS
should definitely be on a shadow priest because it allows them to do
more damage, they should be thankful.
The same applies to other things like the rogue opening with CS when
you've asked him not to.
Sounds like you did a good job though. If I had more time I'd level a
paladin to try out the tanking style. The only thing that doesn't
appeal to me is the downtime drinking after pulls. >> Stay informed about: Looking for ways to improve my Paladin Tank |
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Since: May 04, 2008
Posts: 7
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:19 am
Post subject: Re: Re: Looking for ways to improve my Paladin Tank [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Since: May 28, 2007
Posts: 194
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:19 am
Post subject: Re: Looking for ways to improve my Paladin Tank [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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> Have I understanded correctly that for paladin its better to have def(more parry & shield) than agi(more dodge) as an "tanking stats"?
>
> So mobs that hit you take damage and that generates more agro.
Defense is very important, yes. Agility can be useful sometimes, but
the more you advance, the less agility you'll find in items, because
pure dodge is more useful for paladins. Paladins generally want a lot
of +block rating, but it can be hard to find items with that stat,
especially before lvl 70.
Too much dodge doesn't usually cause aggro problems. It causes mana
problems, because you aren't taking enough damage. >> Stay informed about: Looking for ways to improve my Paladin Tank |
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Since: Nov 19, 2004
Posts: 1401
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:19 am
Post subject: Re: Looking for ways to improve my Paladin Tank [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 9 May, 10:52, Dirk <newsp... DeleteThis @cubeworld.net> wrote:
> Kedge wrote:
> > Quick questions:
>
> > Did you have holy shield up?
>
> Yes, I make sure to keep that up all the time.
>
> > Did you have Rigteous Fury up at all times?
>
> You notices pretty fast when that is not up. I sometimes tend to forget
> it when I was joining a group as healer and then have to switch to tank,
> but yesterday I had it up all the time.
I'm currently levelling my Paladin as Retribution in a group of three
with a Rogue and a Hunter. I use Righteous Fury to act as semi-tank
then the Rogue can stab things in the back. You *really* notice when
it goes then - when it drops you lose the 60% extra threat plus you
get back the Retribution Paladin's 30% threat reduction from the
Fanaticism talent.
steve.kaye >> Stay informed about: Looking for ways to improve my Paladin Tank |
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Since: Nov 13, 2007
Posts: 74
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:52 am
Post subject: Re: Looking for ways to improve my Paladin Tank [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Kedge wrote:
> Quick questions:
>
> Did you have holy shield up?
Yes, I make sure to keep that up all the time.
> Did you have Rigteous Fury up at all times?
You notices pretty fast when that is not up. I sometimes tend to forget
it when I was joining a group as healer and then have to switch to tank,
but yesterday I had it up all the time.
> Did the priest PW:shield you before the fight? - if so take that off,
> as you generate agro when you get hit.
No, the priest didn't use the shield for me.
> Sounds like you did well though, some people just don't understand
> working as a group. You can tell the people who haven't done much
> instancing as they still fight the mob the same way they do when they
> are solo (Howl of Terror is a perfect example)
It didn't help that the rogue always started with cheap shot, so the mob
wasn't hitting me but the others unloaded already. The warlock also
liked to dot up the sapped target. He learned pretty fast not to do that
when I ignored his mob - but he then started feared mobs around.
> What I do sometimes when one person in the group is always stealing
> agro, and not learning to control their output, is to Blessing of
> Protection on them, hopefully they will notice the wings on their head
> and stop doing as much dmg.
Totally forgot about that one yesterday. It will also drop agro for as
long as the shield is active. Will have to remember that!
> People need to realise that it's not a race to see who can do the most
> agro but who has the most control, balance dmg output to tank threat
> generation.
You can't expect much from a PuG. They also kept posting damage meters,
which encourages these things.
Funny incident was that the shadow priest was an enchanter, who rolled
need on every blue item that no one else needed and suggested to
distribute the shards after the run. As soon as we killed the last boss
he left the group and was gone  .
Dirk >> Stay informed about: Looking for ways to improve my Paladin Tank |
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Since: Nov 13, 2007
Posts: 74
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:54 am
Post subject: Re: Looking for ways to improve my Paladin Tank [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Since: Nov 13, 2007
Posts: 74
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 12:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Looking for ways to improve my Paladin Tank [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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steve.kaye wrote:
>> I had to use the highest rank of consecration and still some mobs
>> escaped me.
>
> They would if people were hurting them - I guess that they never
> actually went for the healer? Always went after the DPS?
Yes, they always went for the DPS.
>> The group always killed the casters last, sapped the melee
>> target and I was really struggling to keep aggro.
>
> This is a leadership problem rather than a tanking problem I think.
> Was there any marking done? The leader - and this is usually the tank
> in my experience - should choose who to use CC on and they should also
> decide the kill order. Mark the sap target, mark the first to die,
> second to die etc. Explain the marking system at the start and again
> when they ignore it. If they continue to ignore the marks then it's
> up to you to decide whether to soldier on or leave them.
The shadow priest was the leader and we tried to mark targets but it
didn't work (despite explaining it). He gave up marking targets pretty
fast. I considered leaving after the second or third pull, when the
sapped target was dotted up and they feared the remaining mobs but I
normally won't leave when I've decided to do the instance as it's very
hard to find groups on my server.
> It certainly seems like you did well - no wipes and only one death
> despite the problems mentioned is a good result.
The run was smoother than the ones I did before with other PuGs but I
still wasn't really satisfied. I've done instances before that were much
easier for me. Yesterday I really had to work for it.
BTW: the rogue only died because of the engineering bombs (which I set
of with consecration I think).
Dirk >> Stay informed about: Looking for ways to improve my Paladin Tank |
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Since: Nov 13, 2007
Posts: 74
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 12:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Looking for ways to improve my Paladin Tank [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Mark (newsgroups) wrote:
> If I had more time I'd level a
> paladin to try out the tanking style. The only thing that doesn't
> appeal to me is the downtime drinking after pulls.
As a paladin tank you have a drinking problem for sure . I needed more
water than the healer yesterday and often was the only one sitting and
drinking after a pull. They constantly kept complaining that we are
moving too slow. At least they waited, I had other groups that already
started pulling the next group.
Dirk >> Stay informed about: Looking for ways to improve my Paladin Tank |
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Since: Dec 15, 2007
Posts: 164
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 5:01 am
Post subject: Re: Looking for ways to improve my Paladin Tank [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Fri, 9 May 2008 02:34:15 -0700 (PDT), Kedge
<Richard.Harvey.TakeThisOut@arval.co.uk> wrote:
>Did the priest PW:shield you before the fight? - if so take that off,
>as you generate agro when you get hit.
PW:Shield doesn't interfere with a paladin's reactive threat (getting
hit) at all. It just absorbs the damage. You (the paladin) get all
the aggro with none of the damage. In contrast shielding a warrior or
druid tank before the pull is a big no-no, ofcourse. But for paladins
it works great, so priests shield away on those pally tanks.
----
Gnuthulhu, Undead Warlock
Fthagn, Undead Warrior
Rhyleya, Troll Hunter
Wydefoote, Tauren Shaman
Curwen, Blood Knight
Thunderhorn,US >> Stay informed about: Looking for ways to improve my Paladin Tank |
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Since: Dec 15, 2007
Posts: 164
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 5:01 am
Post subject: Re: Looking for ways to improve my Paladin Tank [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Fri, 9 May 2008 11:08:32 -0700 (PDT), Jason Tinling
<jason.tinling.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>Bad poster, read the tooltip yourself 
>
>> One handed weapon spec - read the tooltip on it, it's +1/2/3/4/5% to ALL
>> damage (this includes spell) while you have a 1h weapon equipped.
>> It's 5% extra threat, period.
>
>Sigh, I read gud.
>
I'll second your recommendation though - One-Handed Weapon
Specialization is an *excellent* Protection talent for paladins. The
OP should pick up Spell Warding too, IMO. Combined with Improved
Righteous Fury, that's a 10% reduction in all incoming spell damage.
Also, you need better trinkets - Smokey's Lighter is a gimmick at
best. At the very least you should have the blue trinket from the HFP
questline to kill Arazzius the Cruel.
My paladin:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Thunderhorn&n=Curwen
----
Gnuthulhu, Undead Warlock
Fthagn, Undead Warrior
Rhyleya, Troll Hunter
Wydefoote, Tauren Shaman
Curwen, Blood Knight
Thunderhorn,US >> Stay informed about: Looking for ways to improve my Paladin Tank |
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