new and upcoming

> Is it just me or is anyone else worried about the dearth of Gurps
> releases? Nothing new on the Horizon for 4e other than a few small
> pdfs? I remember Mr Jackson stated the Munchkin was their primary
> product now, but is it becoming their only product?

Worried? No. The basic set and the Magic book are all I need to run the
campaigns I run. I get the others out of curiosity (and, for me, making
vehicles with GURPS Vehicles is a whole other hobby).

Do I think GURPS is going away? Yes. Slowly, but yes. SJGames has figured
out that the money is in Munchkin and similar products, and it's a business,
so wanting to stay in business will pull them that way. I predict that
they'll say it ain't so for a while (likely to be a few years) and then
they'll announce that GURPS is going away.

At that point, I'll start using my own system, which friends and I have
already started to create.

FWIW
 >> Stay informed about: new and upcoming 

Wylie wrote:
> Is it just me or is anyone else worried about the dearth of Gurps
> releases? Nothing new on the Horizon for 4e other than a few small

I'm not worried, since I don't GM or play GURPS. I've waited and waited
for new and better Martial Arts, and a new and much better High-Tech,
and I finally got those.

A new and better Low-Tech would be great, and some kind of Modern
Campaigns genre book, but I don't need those the way I needed High-Tech.

> pdfs? I remember Mr Jackson stated the Munchkin was their primary
> product now, but is it becoming their only product?

Looks that way.

There are still PDFs coming out, but the *fact* is that PDFs do *not*
receive the *same* *amount* of tender, loving care as printed books do.

Also, splitting up Bestiary into several separate PDFs, instead of one
hardcover 240 page magnum opus on creatures in GURPS. Big mistake!

Anyway, my take on it is that things started going downhill when the
playtest procedure was changed, which is by now several years ago.
Secret playtest of the very core of 4E, Characters and Campaigns, was
one thing, but closed playtests that you have to apply for...? That was
just stupid.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
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On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:25:59 -0800 (PST), Wylie <wylie72 DeleteThis @gmail.com>
wrote:

>Is it just me or is anyone else worried about the dearth of Gurps
>releases? Nothing new on the Horizon for 4e other than a few small
>pdfs?

This is the first time I've ever seen anyone call a 270-page hardcover a
"small pdf".

(See http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/ , under "2008: Looking Ahead", for
details.)

> I remember Mr Jackson stated the Munchkin was their primary
>product now, but is it becoming their only product?

Hardly - they just don't usually talk about products that aren't
anywhere near shipping.

--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"There's always somebody who's going to hate your work, no matter
how good it is. DON'T LET HIM CHASE YOU AWAY FROM WRITING, BECAUSE
THAT WAY HE WINS." - Robert M. Schroeck, 18 July 2006
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Max Wilson <wilson.max.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 22, 10:25?am, Wylie <wyli....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Is it just me or is anyone else worried about the dearth of Gurps
>> releases? ?Nothing new on the Horizon for 4e other than a few small
>> pdfs? ?I remember Mr Jackson stated the Munchkin was their primary
>> product now, but is it becoming their only product?
>
> I haven't looked at the schedule, but every few months I'll pass by a
> bookshop and decide to look at GURPS products. In the last year or so
> I've bought several (four?) books this way, and they were all of high
> and enjoyable quality. I've also enjoyed what I've seen on E23, and I
> may end up purchasing some of those as well.

I don't think anybody disputes the quality of GURPS books. And even
the quality of the e23 pdfs is often very high. Higher than many
print publications for other RPGs. And yet, it's nice to have physical
books on your shelf. I've got about a hundred centimeters of 3rd
edition books, but only a handful of 4th edition. My most recent
addition, Martial Arts, is absolutelly brilliant, much better than
the third edition version, but I would really like to see that kind
of treatment for more subjects. Vehicles, for example. Alien races,
perhaps. Low Tech. Source books, background stuff, more material for
Traveller and other settings.


mcv.
--
Science is not the be-all and end-all of human existence. It's a tool.
A very powerful tool, but not the only tool. And if only that which
could be verified scientifically was considered real, then nearly all
of human experience would be not-real. -- Zachriel
 >> Stay informed about: new and upcoming 

Wylie <wylie72.RemoveThis@gmail.com> writes:

> Is it just me or is anyone else worried about the dearth of Gurps
> releases? Nothing new on the Horizon for 4e other than a few small
> pdfs?

You're not the only one worrying, to be sure. There *are* hardcover
releases coming out, but the promises in the GURPS 4e Basic Set of
"one hardback release every month" proved to be too optimistic.

I can't deny the business realities they're operating under, and in
the choice between "release as PDF or don't release at all" I'm glad
they're choosing to keep new material coming out. I benefit indirectly
because the GURPS community keeps going rather than getting no support
at all.

However, regardless of whether it makes sense for SJ Games to produce
PDFs of gaming material that I'm forbidden to share, they're no good
to me personally. Paying for the PDF and *then* paying to get them
printed and bound makes them far more expensive to actually use than a
hardback for me.

The irony is that in response to "PDFs r teh suxx" comments, SJ Games
(again, quite reasonably) point out that if a PDF sells well, they're
more likely to release it as a short-run hard copy. This, too, is no
good to me, because if I pay for the PDF and *then* pay again for the
hard copy when it eventually comes out, it's obviously more expensive
than just buying the hard copy which is all I actually want anyway.

Fortunately the lower rate of releases has, if anything, *increased*
the already-high page count and (IMHO) quality of the few hardcovers
that do come out.

> I remember Mr Jackson stated the Munchkin was their primary product
> now, but is it becoming their only product?

That's an understandable impression, but it's far from true. They do
still produce GURPS, and they're producing a lot more (and of
consistently high-quality) hard copy RPG material than most other
companies I know of.

It has, of course, reduced in absolute terms over the last several
years. But it makes more sense to compare how much (and what quality)
they're now producing against the same measure for everyone else.
Apart from the obvious 800-pound gorilla, I think you'll find that
everyone else's quality/volume output of RPG hard copy material is as
low or lower.

--
\ "If you go flying back through time and you see somebody else |
`\ flying forward into the future, it's probably best to avoid eye |
_o__) contact." -- Jack Handey |
Ben Finney
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On Jan 23, 7:41 am, mcv <mcv....RemoveThis@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> I don't think anybody disputes the quality of GURPS books. And even
> the quality of the e23 pdfs is often very high. Higher than many
> print publications for other RPGs. And yet, it's nice to have physical
> books on your shelf. I've got about a hundred centimeters of 3rd
> edition books, but only a handful of 4th edition. My most recent
> addition, Martial Arts, is absolutelly brilliant, much better than
> the third edition version, but I would really like to see that kind
> of treatment for more subjects. Vehicles, for example. Alien races,
> perhaps. Low Tech. Source books, background stuff, more material for
> Traveller and other settings.

Yes. I wonder if E23 has considered collaborating with some of the
print-on-demand presses to get those PDFs out in hardback? Perhaps it
hasn't been considered, or perhaps it turned out to be uneconomic, but
I understand it's been getting cheaper these last few years.

-Max
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mcv <mcvmcv DeleteThis @xs4all.nl> writes:

> My most recent addition, Martial Arts, is absolutelly brilliant,
> much better than the third edition version, but I would really like
> to see that kind of treatment for more subjects. Vehicles, for
> example. Alien races, perhaps. Low Tech. Source books, background
> stuff, more material for Traveller and other settings.

Obviously we'd all like more good stuff from SJ Games. But every
decision to do one thing is also a decision to *not* spend that same
effort on countless other things one could have done with it. What, in
your assessment, should SJ Games *not* spend their efforts on in order
to have the resources available to do what you ask for?

--
\ "Oh, I realize it's a penny here and a penny there, but look at |
`\ me: I've worked myself up from nothing to a state of extreme |
_o__) poverty." -- Groucho Marx |
Ben Finney
 >> Stay informed about: new and upcoming 

Max Wilson <wilson.max RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 23, 7:41?am, mcv <mcv... RemoveThis @xs4all.nl> wrote:
>> I don't think anybody disputes the quality of GURPS books. And even
>> the quality of the e23 pdfs is often very high. Higher than many
>> print publications for other RPGs. And yet, it's nice to have physical
>> books on your shelf. I've got about a hundred centimeters of 3rd
>> edition books, but only a handful of 4th edition. My most recent
>> addition, Martial Arts, is absolutelly brilliant, much better than
>> the third edition version, but I would really like to see that kind
>> of treatment for more subjects. Vehicles, for example. Alien races,
>> perhaps. Low Tech. Source books, background stuff, more material for
>> Traveller and other settings.
>
> Yes. I wonder if E23 has considered collaborating with some of the
> print-on-demand presses to get those PDFs out in hardback? Perhaps it
> hasn't been considered, or perhaps it turned out to be uneconomic, but
> I understand it's been getting cheaper these last few years.

The more successful e23 books (GURPS Mysteries at least) have been
released as print-on-demand, though on paperback.


mcv.
--
Science is not the be-all and end-all of human existence. It's a tool.
A very powerful tool, but not the only tool. And if only that which
could be verified scientifically was considered real, then nearly all
of human experience would be not-real. -- Zachriel
 >> Stay informed about: new and upcoming 

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:41:34 +0000, mcv wrote:

> I don't think anybody disputes the quality of GURPS books. And even the
> quality of the e23 pdfs is often very high. Higher than many print
> publications for other RPGs. And yet, it's nice to have physical books
> on your shelf. I've got about a hundred centimeters of 3rd edition
> books, but only a handful of 4th edition.

I have all the 4e hardbounds, and that comes to 21cm, 22cm if you count /
Dragons/. I don't have any of the softback PODs, but I expect they'll add
another 3-4cm, so while it's nothing on 3e, it's not exactly a trivial
amount of material.

--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn.DeleteThis@paradise.net.nz>
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Max Wilson wrote:
> On Jan 23, 7:41 am, mcv <mcv... RemoveThis @xs4all.nl> wrote:
>> I don't think anybody disputes the quality of GURPS books. And even
>> the quality of the e23 pdfs is often very high. Higher than many
>> print publications for other RPGs. And yet, it's nice to have physical
>> books on your shelf. I've got about a hundred centimeters of 3rd
>> edition books, but only a handful of 4th edition. My most recent
>> addition, Martial Arts, is absolutelly brilliant, much better than
>> the third edition version, but I would really like to see that kind
>> of treatment for more subjects. Vehicles, for example. Alien races,
>> perhaps. Low Tech. Source books, background stuff, more material for
>> Traveller and other settings.
>
> Yes. I wonder if E23 has considered collaborating with some of the
> print-on-demand presses to get those PDFs out in hardback? Perhaps it
> hasn't been considered, or perhaps it turned out to be uneconomic, but
> I understand it's been getting cheaper these last few years.
>
> -Max

Actually, I don't want them in Hardback anymore. I'll print the PDF, put
the pages in top loading polypropylene sheet protectors, index chapters
with tabbed sheets, and put it all in a 3-ring notebook. Then, If I need
to annotate changes, indicate house rules, etc. it's very easy to change.

I've been advocating this as the way to go for printed books that I'm
going to need for reference frequently since 1983.

I would especially like the Spells and Beastry to have 1 spell or beast
per page -makes it far easier to index or add material. One can always
wish!

Oh, and bye the way, using foam board or the plastic "cardboard" with
the poly sheet protectors and cloth tape makes a very good GM shield,
readily customizable to different genre needs.
Regards,
Roger
 >> Stay informed about: new and upcoming 

Ben Finney wrote:
> Wylie <wylie72.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Is it just me or is anyone else worried about the dearth of Gurps
>> releases? Nothing new on the Horizon for 4e other than a few small
>> pdfs?
>
> You're not the only one worrying, to be sure. There *are* hardcover
> releases coming out, but the promises in the GURPS 4e Basic Set of
> "one hardback release every month" proved to be too optimistic.
>
> I can't deny the business realities they're operating under, and in
> the choice between "release as PDF or don't release at all" I'm glad
> they're choosing to keep new material coming out. I benefit indirectly
> because the GURPS community keeps going rather than getting no support
> at all.
>
> However, regardless of whether it makes sense for SJ Games to produce
> PDFs of gaming material that I'm forbidden to share, they're no good
> to me personally. Paying for the PDF and *then* paying to get them
> printed and bound makes them far more expensive to actually use than a
> hardback for me.
>
> The irony is that in response to "PDFs r teh suxx" comments, SJ Games
> (again, quite reasonably) point out that if a PDF sells well, they're
> more likely to release it as a short-run hard copy. This, too, is no
> good to me, because if I pay for the PDF and *then* pay again for the
> hard copy when it eventually comes out, it's obviously more expensive
> than just buying the hard copy which is all I actually want anyway.
>
> Fortunately the lower rate of releases has, if anything, *increased*
> the already-high page count and (IMHO) quality of the few hardcovers
> that do come out.
>
>> I remember Mr Jackson stated the Munchkin was their primary product
>> now, but is it becoming their only product?
>
> That's an understandable impression, but it's far from true. They do
> still produce GURPS, and they're producing a lot more (and of
> consistently high-quality) hard copy RPG material than most other
> companies I know of.
>
> It has, of course, reduced in absolute terms over the last several
> years. But it makes more sense to compare how much (and what quality)
> they're now producing against the same measure for everyone else.
> Apart from the obvious 800-pound gorilla, I think you'll find that
> everyone else's quality/volume output of RPG hard copy material is as
> low or lower.
>


Cost of HP C5280 All-in-One printer $130.00
Cost of HP Ink cartridges for above 74XL/75XL combo @ $60.00
Cost of Regular Inkjet paper HP 24lb, 96 bright 500 sheets @ $10.00
Cost of Staples Standard Top Loading Sheet protectors 100 sheets @ $10
Cost of Staples Better Binder D-ring View Binder 1-1/2" (400 sheet
capacity) $8.00

I can print, protect, & looseleaf bind for a total cost of about $40 per
PDF. I could get fancier of course, but why should I need to? But, more
to the point, in a number of instances, I don't need to print it, just
look up something on the computer. And carrying a 2GB USB flash drive
with the volumes in PDF is very convenient!

Unfortunately for SJGames, those of us with a long history of GURPS and
other RPG games already have the vast majority of the necessary
references. Only occasionally will something be produced now that will
fit with my gaming campaigns, or be of interest to start a different
campaign. The ONLY volume I'm likely to purchase in the foreseeable
future is GURPS Vorkosigan. And if it isn't published within the next
6-8 months, I'll have already finished my preparations for that as well,
making it unnecessary.

What I would pay for in the future: Additional spells, particularly
building on those from MI1 & MI2 that are lost, unique, and recognized
"variations" as well as new ideas -Antiteleport, Laser eyes, Gain ST
from inanimate objects, for example; a list of plot ideas with some
introductory descriptions; Space Atlas with 3d maps of the other
quadrants, descriptions of worlds, new aliens, new drugs, new foods;
Battlearmor; Spaceships; Background books on Andre Norton's Zacathian
universe, the Witchworld universe, and others such as Brust's Jhereg
series. These should expand on the book info with maps, descriptions of
customs, holidays, famous places, inns, restaurants, foods, job tables,
creatures, and perhaps minor dignitaries.

(For the record, I have for 1st & 2e: Basic, Fantasy, Tredroy, Hawkwood,
Magic, Bestiary, FBestiary.

3e: Basic, CI, CII, Magic, Grimoire, Psionics, MI1, MI2, Fantasy, F2,
FAdv, Bestiary, FB, FFolk, Modern Firepower, HT, LT, MArts, UT, UT2,
Space, Space Atlas: Old Frontier Sector, Space Bestiary, Aliens,
BioTech, Age of Steel, Japan, Vikings, Celtic Myth, Egypt, Arabian
Nights, Russia, China, Conan, Time Travel, Calahans CS, Fairie,
Atlantis, Humanx, Shapeshifters, Horror, CotN, Vehicles, Ice Age,
Authentic Thaumaturgy, Lensman, Cyberpunk, Swashbucklers.

4e: Basic Set, Magic, Fantasy, Banestorm, Infinite Worlds, Powers.

as well as other odds & ends to support my habit.)

Here's to continued, enjoyable, FRP gaming, preferably in GURPS!
Roger

Roger Connor
night-hunter.TakeThisOut@earthlink.net
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Night-hunter <night-hunter.RemoveThis@earthlink.net> writes:

> I can print, protect, & looseleaf bind for a total cost of about
> [US]$40 per PDF [plus a significant inventment in equipment to do
> so]. I could get fancier of course, but why should I need to?

Right. Add in the cost of downloading a copy of the PDF and you're up
to about US$60-80 for a self-printed-and-bound the average interesting
thing on e23.

And I can buy a durable, nicely-printed, delivered to my door,
hardback book for far less than that. So, it's not worth it to me to
pay the above prices for PDFs to turn them into something I'll
actually use.

> Here's to continued, enjoyable, FRP gaming, preferably in GURPS!

I'll drink to that.

--
\ "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love |
`\ not freedom, but license." -- John Milton |
_o__) |
Ben Finney
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On Jan 27, 6:48 pm, Ben Finney <bignose+hates-s...@benfinney.id.au>
wrote:
> Night-hunter <night-hun... RemoveThis @earthlink.net> writes:
> > I can print, protect, & looseleaf bind for a total cost of about
> > [US]$40 per PDF [plus a significant inventment in equipment to do
> > so]. I could get fancier of course, but why should I need to?
>
> Right. Add in the cost of downloading a copy of the PDF and you're up
> to about US$60-80 for a self-printed-and-bound the average interesting
> thing on e23.
>
> And I can buy a durable, nicely-printed, delivered to my door,
> hardback book for far less than that. So, it's not worth it to me to
> pay the above prices for PDFs to turn them into something I'll
> actually use.
>
> > Here's to continued, enjoyable, FRP gaming, preferably in GURPS!
>
> I'll drink to that.
>
> --
> \ "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love |
> `\ not freedom, but license." -- John Milton |
> _o__) |
> Ben Finney

two points here:

1) My opinion of GURPS players (Gurpsers?) are that we are not
exactly a young lot. Most of us I imagine have the funds to buy just
about every Gurps release just for nostalgia. And regarding the added
cost of PDFs, I assume too many people get them free off the
newgroups. So the differences in cost between three ring binding self
printed pages vs buying hardcovers is minimal. The time involved in
doing this involved is actually the greatest cost. So although I love
the idea, I could never see myself doing it.

2) My problem with PDFs is all it takes is a computer crash and poor
back-up habits and it's gone. I'll always prefer hardcopy because it
will take a housefire or vengeful divorce to loose my books.

-wylie
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