A tricky legal question about GURPS.

On 22 Mar 2006 11:10:40 -0800, "Mark Sebree" <sebree RemoveThis @infionline.net>
wrote:

[...]
>And, if you still have questions or are not sure, you can always gather
>the material together as you intend to present it, as well as the
>intended use, and then send it to SJG and ask them if they have any
>problems with it.

I'll do it, thanks!

>Include scans of printed material as well as copies
>of websites. Also ask them to specify any problems they have and
>suggestions to fix them. Be sure to state that you are in Italy.

According to what I know of Italian (our) laws, it shouldn't be much
different than USA, in this particular case.
I'll ask for details, however... Since GURPS stuff for 3rd edition had
an official Italian translator and distributor.

[...]
>Keep in mind that the comic that you are referring to is a separate
>copyright issue, as they mention in the above link. That could require
>a separate permission from the comic's copyright holder.

It happens I'm making this for the original holder of said copyright,
so no problem. Thank you very much for all suggestions. They're most
appreciated, I'll follow all of them. ^_______^

Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."
 >> Stay informed about: A tricky legal question about GURPS. 

The general answer to any question about "Can I publish [via Web, print,
or other media] something to do with GURPS?" [or any other SJG property]
is "To be safe, e-mail licensing RemoveThis @sjgames.com and explain *clearly* and
*in detail* what you want to do." Particularly note if you have a
deadline, and recognize that if the deadline is next week, you're
probably not going to get an answer in time.

--
Andrew Hackard
hackard RemoveThis @speakeasy.net
 >> Stay informed about: A tricky legal question about GURPS. 

On 22 Mar 2006 14:06:07 -0800, "Mark Sebree" <sebree RemoveThis @infionline.net>
wrote:

[...]
>> According to what I know of Italian (our) laws, it shouldn't be much
>> different than USA, in this particular case.
>
>You never know. Copyright, trademark, and patent laws can be
>convoluted, especially when you are talking about the international
>laws.

I will check. However, I feel safe in that, having permission from
both SJ Games -AND- the one and only owner of the series, I'm "on the
safe side"!

[...]
>> It happens I'm making this for the original holder of said copyright,
>> so no problem.
>
>You might want to include this fact when you are relating the
>information for the intended use. Since it is for the original
>copyright holder or the comic, they may in turn have some restrictions
>for his use of it.

I have written an e-mail to SJ Games, including everything I thought
it could be useful.

Thanks again! ^_____^

Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."
 >> Stay informed about: A tricky legal question about GURPS. 

Korin Duval wrote:
>
> Then, about d20 System, I can do this because of OGL.

SJG should really take note of the OGL.

Especially with 4E. It feels a lot like extortion to say "Oh, and the
hundreds you've spent on source books is now worthless unless you spend
another hundred on the 4E basic edition which doesn't actually include
everything..."

(And don't even mention GURPS Lite...)

Jeffs
 >> Stay informed about: A tricky legal question about GURPS. 

Jeffs wrote:
> Korin Duval wrote:
> >
> > Then, about d20 System, I can do this because of OGL.
>
> SJG should really take note of the OGL.
>
> Especially with 4E. It feels a lot like extortion to say "Oh, and the
> hundreds you've spent on source books is now worthless unless you spend
> another hundred on the 4E basic edition which doesn't actually include
> everything..."
>
> (And don't even mention GURPS Lite...)
>
> Jeffs

GURPS has the Powered By GURPS licence. they don't got the OGL rout
dimple because they do no want their reputation for quality tarnished.
coupled with a liberal on-line policy....
 >> Stay informed about: A tricky legal question about GURPS. 

On 24 Mar 2006 20:08:06 -0800, "Jeffs" <jeff_suzuki.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Korin Duval wrote:
>>
>> Then, about d20 System, I can do this because of OGL.
>
>SJG should really take note of the OGL.

I suspect that they have.

>Especially with 4E. It feels a lot like extortion to say "Oh, and the
>hundreds you've spent on source books is now worthless unless you spend
>another hundred on the 4E basic edition which doesn't actually include
>everything..."

First, I'm having no problems using my GURPS Third Edition source books
with Fourth Edition rules. I'm having no problems using my Second
Edition sourcebooks with Fourth Edition rules. (I had substantial
problems trying to use my D&D supplements with AD&D rules, or my AD&D
supplements with D&D3 rules.)

Second, aside from setting-specific items which have never been in basic
rules no matter who publishes the game, what does the Fourth Edition
Basic Set not contain?

>(And don't even mention GURPS Lite...)

Why not? It's an introductory subset of the rules, enough to get people
interested in the game and try it out without having to spend a small
fortune on rules; that's sound advertising practice which apparently
increases sales. Other games also have similar stripped-down free
rulesets, presumably to increase their sales. (I suspect the only
reason d20 doesn't is becasue they can't present a subset of the rules
that's actually playable.)

--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"As far as Doug is concerned, "dignity" is just a tragic disease that
other people suffer from."
- Bob Schroeck, talking about his V&V character, 15 March 2005
 >> Stay informed about: A tricky legal question about GURPS. 

On 24 Mar 2006 20:08:06 -0800, "Jeffs" <jeff_suzuki.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Korin Duval wrote:
>>
>> Then, about d20 System, I can do this because of OGL.
>
>SJG should really take note of the OGL.
>
>Especially with 4E. It feels a lot like extortion to say "Oh, and the
>hundreds you've spent on source books is now worthless unless you spend
>another hundred on the 4E basic edition which doesn't actually include
>everything..."

?_?
4th Edition is not THAT different, and 3rd Ed.books converts easily.
Attributes are roughly the same, a part from ST (there's a conversion
table, or a GM can re-assign it "by ear"... And ST scores in the 8-15
range can be kept at same level with almost no problem).
Many advantages have the same name, and there's a .PDF for converting,
should anyone be fool enough to use GURPS manual for raw game
statistics, and not as base for campaing suggestions...

However, if you have 3rd ed. manuals, you can still use them... They
won't erase themselves. ^___________^

>(And don't even mention GURPS Lite...)

Well, we should.
I feel that GURPS Lite is a GREAT idea... but on the legal point of
view, it's quite a puzzle. Any clarification on it?

Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."
 >> Stay informed about: A tricky legal question about GURPS. 

Rob Kelk wrote:

> Second, aside from setting-specific items which have never been in basic
> rules no matter who publishes the game, what does the Fourth Edition
> Basic Set not contain?

Orthodox Judaism has an interesting concept called "kosher." The
relevance here is that if X is not kosher, then anything X touches is
not kosher (I'm not OJ, so pardons if I get the theology incorrect).

In the context of 4E, this means that if a single rule _anywhere_ in 4E
conflicts with a single rule _anywhere_ in a source book, that entire
source book is suspect. (Perhaps you've never been involved in a
situation where a player used a rule from one book and the GM used a
rule from another book...and they conflicted. If so, you've been very
lucky, or have had/been a GM with sole access to the books)

For example: the thing that got me annoyed enough to consider changing
systems was the maneuvers list. There's enough in there to take up
10-20 pages (I don't have 4E in front of me)...but you still need to
buy (if you don't have it) _Martial Arts_, since the maneuvers list is
incomplete. But there's also a rules change: the point costs are
different. So now my _Martial Arts_ book is suspect, since I don't
know what other rules changes there have been.

As another example: the shotgun rules have changed. Which means that
_High Tech_ is now suspect. That's two of the books I used most
commonly, both of which are now (to use another term from Judaism,
which I might misspell or misunderstand the theology of) traif.

The fact that two of my books are now suspect leads me to wonder if the
rest of my books are also suspect. So my entire investment in 3rd
edition source books is now of dubious value.

Jeffs
 >> Stay informed about: A tricky legal question about GURPS. 

Rogue the Bronze Firelizard wrote:

> GURPS has the Powered By GURPS licence.

Which is sort of the opposite of the open source philosophy. As nearly
as I can tell, the d20 philosophy is "first one is free...", and they
make their money on the source books.

Given the number of source books out there, and the fact that you could
have, essentially, an unlimited number of them...it makes sense. Get
people addicted to the system, then make things that go with it that
they'll be certain to buy. (Anyone remember back in the day when every
computer came with MS Office preloaded? They don't do that
anymore...they have everyone addicted.)

Jeffs
 >> Stay informed about: A tricky legal question about GURPS. 

Jeffs wrote:
> Rob Kelk wrote:
>
> > Second, aside from setting-specific items which have never been in basic
> > rules no matter who publishes the game, what does the Fourth Edition
> > Basic Set not contain?
>
> Orthodox Judaism has an interesting concept called "kosher." The
> relevance here is that if X is not kosher, then anything X touches is
> not kosher (I'm not OJ, so pardons if I get the theology incorrect).
>
> In the context of 4E, this means that if a single rule _anywhere_ in 4E
> conflicts with a single rule _anywhere_ in a source book, that entire
> source book is suspect. (Perhaps you've never been involved in a
> situation where a player used a rule from one book and the GM used a
> rule from another book...and they conflicted. If so, you've been very
> lucky, or have had/been a GM with sole access to the books)

Not quite. A source book that contains a lot of background data is
still very useful. However, if you are using something designed for
one edition, and you are playing the game under rules for another
edition, then you have to expect to have to adapt things.

>
> For example: the thing that got me annoyed enough to consider changing
> systems was the maneuvers list. There's enough in there to take up
> 10-20 pages (I don't have 4E in front of me)...but you still need to
> buy (if you don't have it) _Martial Arts_, since the maneuvers list is
> incomplete. But there's also a rules change: the point costs are
> different. So now my _Martial Arts_ book is suspect, since I don't
> know what other rules changes there have been.

Or, you just have to work to adapt the old rules to the new. SJG
admitted that book that are very "crunchy" in nature, i.e. ones that
relied heavily on the existing rules such as the Compendium books and
expanded on them, would become effectively worthless. They never hid
that fact. And the changes in the point costs come as no surprise to
anyone. The use of 1/2 points for some things was a bit contrived to
start with, and very unusual for an RPG in any case.

>
> As another example: the shotgun rules have changed. Which means that
> _High Tech_ is now suspect. That's two of the books I used most
> commonly, both of which are now (to use another term from Judaism,
> which I might misspell or misunderstand the theology of) traif.

However, not necessarily all of High Tech is suspect. A few numbers
are likely to need rework, some stats may need to be refigured for many
items, but most of the information is likely to remain the same.
Again, you need to expect changes, and rework the stats for the new
rules..

>
> The fact that two of my books are now suspect leads me to wonder if the
> rest of my books are also suspect. So my entire investment in 3rd
> edition source books is now of dubious value.
>
> Jeffs

Some are, most are not. You can figure that the Compendium books are
not going to work in GURPS 4e, as well as GURPS Magic and a few others.
Your general background books are going to work for the most part.

If you are ambitious about it, you can always create an adaptation for
your books to 4E, and submit it to SJG for sanity checking,
publication, and general availability. This could be as simple as a
few general changes that affect everything, such as a simple formula
for a change to ranges, or as complex as recomputing NPCs' skills and
costs under the new rules as well as new stats for different
encounters, creatures, and weapons.

Mark Sebree
 >> Stay informed about: A tricky legal question about GURPS. 

Korin Duval wrote:
> On 24 Mar 2006 20:08:06 -0800, "Jeffs" <jeff_suzuki DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Korin Duval wrote:
> >>
> >> Then, about d20 System, I can do this because of OGL.
> >
> >SJG should really take note of the OGL.
> >
> >Especially with 4E. It feels a lot like extortion to say "Oh, and the
> >hundreds you've spent on source books is now worthless unless you spend
> >another hundred on the 4E basic edition which doesn't actually include
> >everything..."
>
> ?_?
> 4th Edition is not THAT different, and 3rd Ed.books converts easily.
> Attributes are roughly the same, a part from ST (there's a conversion
> table, or a GM can re-assign it "by ear"... And ST scores in the 8-15
> range can be kept at same level with almost no problem).
> Many advantages have the same name, and there's a .PDF for converting,
> should anyone be fool enough to use GURPS manual for raw game
> statistics, and not as base for campaing suggestions...
>
> However, if you have 3rd ed. manuals, you can still use them... They
> won't erase themselves. ^___________^
>
> >(And don't even mention GURPS Lite...)
>
> Well, we should.
> I feel that GURPS Lite is a GREAT idea... but on the legal point of
> view, it's quite a puzzle. Any clarification on it?
>
> Korin Duval
>
> --
>
> "Truth requires a great amount of courage;
> Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."

GURPS Lite is published by SJG, which owns the copyright to GURPS to
start with. It is an advertising tool, a "teaser", if you will. It is
supposed to get people interested in the game and provide basic rules,
but not the complete rules. When people get interested, they are more
likely to shell out the bigger buck on the rulebooks and supplements.

There is no copyright infringement, because the copyright holder of the
original work is publishing the condensed version as well.

This, however, might not answer your question. If not, could you
please explain what you consider to be the "puzzle", and what you need
clarification on?

Mark Sebree
 >> Stay informed about: A tricky legal question about GURPS. 

Jeffs wrote:
[...]
> The fact that two of my books are now suspect leads me to wonder if the
> rest of my books are also suspect. So my entire investment in 3rd
> edition source books is now of dubious value.

Those of your books that contain rules are more or less suspect, but the
majority if the many GURPS books that I own do not contain rules. They
are therefore not suspect. They are as easy to use with GURPS 4th
Edition as with GURPS 3rd Edition. Or indeed with non-GURPS systems,
which is why I've bought them.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
 >> Stay informed about: A tricky legal question about GURPS. 

On 27 Mar 2006 13:57:24 -0800, "Mark Sebree" <sebree.DeleteThis@infionline.net>
wrote:

[...]
>> I feel that GURPS Lite is a GREAT idea... but on the legal point of
>> view, it's quite a puzzle. Any clarification on it?

[...]
>GURPS Lite is published by SJG, which owns the copyright to GURPS to
[...]
>There is no copyright infringement, because the copyright holder of the
>original work is publishing the condensed version as well.

There's not, of course. ^__^

>This, however, might not answer your question. If not, could you
>please explain what you consider to be the "puzzle", and what you need
>clarification on?

I'll try to be clear.
GURPS Lite is "free". But what does it means by "free"?
Free to distribute, of course.
But what about use? It's free for private use, or can it be used as
base for some other non-SJG material?


Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."
 >> Stay informed about: A tricky legal question about GURPS.