what's with all the talk about "Kara" ?

On Feb 3, 9:37 pm, chocolatemalt <myothern....DeleteThis@dim.com.removethis>
wrote:
> In article <qd28q3tk9mlag7fdgg1ioi73r7gat55....DeleteThis@4ax.com>,
>  Catriona R <catrionarNOS....DeleteThis@totalise.co.uk> wrote:

> > >I hadn't realized that. Which encounters more or less require threat
> > >meters to successfully complete them, as opposed to "They're nice to
> > >have, and probably would save a few tries during the learning process"?

> Prince Malchezar is a good example pointed out by some others here.  You
> get 101% of the tank's threat level and how would you even know?  You
> haven't pulled aggro since you haven't breached the 110% or 130% level
> required, but when Enfeeble hits the tank... thanks a lot bud!

He's an example, but not really a very strong example IMO. All that
is necessary is for DPS-ers to take it very easy in Phase 1, and use
any threat-dumping abilities they have towards the end of it, as
Prince approaches 60% (how easy they have to take it beforehand
depends on how much threat they can dump). Assuming they have BoS,
they can safely go all out from then on, which is the only time it
matters.

So I would put threat meters in the 'nice to have' category for this
encounter, as there is a straightforward strategy that can be adopted
to get through it without one. I don't think a slow Phase 1 would be
a problem for anything but the most marginal raid. DPS casters who
run out of mana might perform better if they adopted this strategy
anyway!

- Gerry Quinn
 >> Stay informed about: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? 

lcpltom <lcpltom DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:

>On Feb 1, 9:09 am, Dan <no.spam.here.invalid> wrote:
>> pv+use...@pobox.com (PV) wrote:
>> >The reason threatmeters exist is because blizzard forgot to include some
>> >in-game method to determine how pissed mobs are at you.
>>
>> I don't think they 'forgot', I think they chose not to. They
>> deliberately kept the threat mechanics under a cloak of secrecy
>> until determined players reverse-engineered what they must be.
....[snipped]...

>Except threat mechanics aren't behind some curtain somewhere, its well
>known how they work.

It is *now*. Because as I said, determined players
reverse-engineered how it worked. Blizzard never released any
information about how threat worked until after it had been worked
out anyway and it took quite a long time for all the details to be
hammered out (e.g. different healing threat for different classes,
exactly how much extra threat you got various abilities, etc.)

>You idea for changing the way the threat system definitely would lead
>to some interesting encounters, but would make a lot of content too
>hard for anyone but the most hardcore organized players to attempt.
>Pugs and poorly organized groups and raids probably wouldn't survive
>long with encounters like that.

It would definitely shake things up a bit. I'd be much more
interested in raiding if it wasn't just fighting to a script.

Dan
 >> Stay informed about: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? 

pv+usenet@pobox.com (PV) wrote:

>usenet5@stormbringer.clara.co.uk writes:
>>effectiveness. It's no coincedence that the hardest fights tend to
>>be ones with non-standard threat mechanics - e.g. some scripted
>>action that wipes the threat list.
>Actually, that's not true at all.

I think it is, in general. A mob that does nothing special with
threat is a straightforward tank/heal fight. A mob that has
abilities which drop or temporarily ignore the tank's threat
requires more complicated tactics - i.e. the fight is harder.

I'm not very familiar with TBC raids, but a simple example from ZG
- the spider boss has an ability where she webs all the nearby
meleers, including tanks, then ignores them and charges into the
raid. The fight is dead easy with a feral druid tank, because he
can't be webbed and so doesn't get ignored and the rest of the raid
never gets charged.

>>The fact that they are considering adding a built-in threatmeter now
>>is probably just a grudging acknowledgement of the fact that
>>everyone is using them anyway, to the point where they now assume
>
>That is 100% the opposite of what the blue post said. Having threat level
>exposed lets them make more interesting encounters, such as DPS races,
>where going all out would have been an instant wipe.

Well, they would say that, wouldn't they. I don't think it's the
opposite of what I said, just possibly PR spin to put a positive
face on it. Personally I don't think "do damage as fast as possible"
makes for an interesting encounter, but that's just my opinion.

>>You do know the monster has you on his hate list, you can tell
>>because it puts you in combat. Why does it make more sense to know
>>that one more fireball will be exactly the right number to make the
>>monster angry enough to come eat you, taking into account what
>
>It doesn't work that way, since you don't know how much damage "one more
>fireball" would add, and there are other complicating factors.

If you know a fireball does 500-700 damage and might crit for
1000-1400 damage (fictional numbers) then the threatmeter can tell
you how likely it is to cause you to take aggro.

>>It would make large fights more interesting, rather than just
>>following a known static recipe as perfectly as you can.
>
>Except that's not how raids work.

Which boss fights cannot be done using the same strategy each time?

>>Soon we'll have add-ons that stop your attacks/heals if they think
>>you'll gain aggro by carrying them out, just to make life even
>>easier.
>
>Now you see, that's a strawman argument, because such action HAVE been
>specifically disallowed for addons to perform. You can't do it. *

That was kind of tongue-in-cheek. They've covered the obvious
ways of doing it - intelligent buttons, cancelling your target, etc.
There may well be a less obvious way of doing it. What about
disabling/hiding a button? Or a bar of buttons? What about popping
up a non-click-through invisible frame over the top of the button or
button bar? I know that can be done, because I've had broken add-ons
do it unintentionally.

Dan
 >> Stay informed about: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? 

usenet5.DeleteThis@stormbringer.clara.co.uk writes:
>I think it is, in general. A mob that does nothing special with
>threat is a straightforward tank/heal fight. A mob that has

Not necessarily.

>I'm not very familiar with TBC raids, but a simple example from ZG
>- the spider boss has an ability where she webs all the nearby
>meleers, including tanks, then ignores them and charges into the
>raid. The fight is dead easy with a feral druid tank, because he

Do some TBC raids. There's a lot of interesting fights that don't do aggro
dumps. Personally, I think aggro dumps are stupidly nonsensical. *
--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.
 >> Stay informed about: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? 

In article <014fq31607tdhufr3tef1io1m3aq001a1t.DeleteThis@4ax.com>,
Marcel <marcel.DeleteThis@marcel.invalid> wrote:

> On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 14:23:00 -0700, chocolatemalt
> <myothername.DeleteThis@dim.com.removethis> wrote:

> > It not only affects regular
> >hits, Shield Slams, etc, but also Taunt, Mocking Blow, Shield Bash (for
> >critical interrupts, e.g. channelers at Magtheridon) and so on. The
> >miss rate against raid bosses is 9%, which is radically unacceptable
> >when 24 other people might be depending on you to minimize the screw ups
> >and prevent a wipe. Getting 142 hit rating may be unrealistic but
> >something most of the way there is reasonable.
> >
> You only reach the 9% with the full 142 hit if you would ever reach
> that with gear up to T4.
> Above T5 it gets much easier to stack +hit and you will get it anyway
> with the gear.
> Below that it's unacceptable to gimp your stamina with 24 others
> depending on you for just a bit more hit rating because that's what
> your talking about with T4, a bit more.

Getting an unlucky miss or two on crucial Shield Slams at the beginning
of a fight is a far more common cause of wipes due to loss of aggro than
a couple hundred HP. Likewise for Taunts... the raw 9% miss rate is an
enormous (and enormously ignored) problem, particularly with spawned
adds that will one-shot your healers if you're getting RESIST due to
your terrible hit rate.

> >Achieving uncritability and extra stamina is important, but relatively
> >easy with all the hybrid gems, enchants, and armor kits.
> >
> Most tanks I know including me go for the +12 blue stamina gem for
> most gem slots while aiming for 490+ defense.

This is the Nothing But Stamina approach that is pretty popular but
still unwise. With T4 gear you're looking at 14k-ish unbuffed HP. For
the vast majority of fights at that level it's not going to make a
difference if you have 500 HP less, but it will make a big difference if
your Taunts and Shield Slams are landing reliably.

Speaking of the Nothing But Stamina issue, a real common boss fight
experience I've seen is good healers that have no trouble keeping a tank
at 40%-90% health but then go completely /oom at 20% or so of boss HP
and a wipe is inevitable. This is usually blamed on the healers but the
tank ought to be examined as well -- did he go full-stamina at the
expense of everything else, dodge/block/parry? In a 10-minute fight
that's a giant burden on the healers.

> >> Most stuff up to kara and you're talking stacking +hit a bit earlier ?
> >> Makes me wonder what gear we're talking about since there isn't much
> >> making it easy to stack +hit at that moment in the game.
> >
> >Yep, it's tough. Only a head glyph and a boot enchant to help in the
> >enchantment area, but there are many yellow and orange gems that can do
> >the majority of the work.
> >
> The head glyph is +16 hit which is 1%
> The tank glyphe however is +16 defense and +17 dodge.
> No way I'm taking the hit one over the defense glyph.
> Boots are enchanted with +12 stamina at the moment and you're
> suggesting to change that for +10 hit rating ?
> Regarding the yellow and orange, they will do some work, they will
> gimp your stamina so you loose like a couple of hundred HP pretty
> fast.

The enchants are there only if you're desperate for the +hit. I'm not
saying they're a good choice. However the gems are reasonable if your
HP and defense are already good enough. The socket bonuses are small
but can add up.
 >> Stay informed about: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? 

On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 14:40:31 -0700, chocolatemalt
<myothername RemoveThis @dim.com.removethis> wrote:

>In article <6n98q359o0snqlp6ujjg6hl2jgk81u9opk RemoveThis @4ax.com>,
> Alphawolf <gnuthulhu RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:39:40 -0000, pv+usenet@pobox.com (PV) wrote:
>>
>> >gerryq <gerryq RemoveThis @indigo.ie> writes:
>> >>provide in game cues that players could use (somewhere around 120% on
>> >>a ranged character, a mob might be likely to snarl at the character,
>> >>for example).
>> >
>> >I would be totally cool with that, and would drop Omen in a second if it
>> >came up. We use omen because there ISN'T such a thing right now, just like
>> >we use timers because there isn't a way to tell that boss is about to use a
>> >special ability that must be countered immediately. *
>>
>> The snarling bit would be quite cool, but in the mean time I like
>> Omen's "Drums O'Doom". I have the audible warning turned on, and it
>> can make quite a rukus, pretty much sounds like a John Bohnam drum
>> solo sometimes.
>
>I like it! The tank threat bar at the top of the meter is the "levee",
>and the dps'er bars piling against it from below are the waters
>threatening to break it. And a bad tank is a mean ole levee that taught
>us to weep and moan.

LOL!

----
Gnuthulhu, Undead Warlock
Fthagn, Undead Warrior
Rhyleya, Troll Hunter
Wydefoote, Tauren Shaman
Curwen, Blood Knight
Thunderhorn,US
 >> Stay informed about: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? 

Dan wrote:
> pv+usenet@pobox.com (PV) wrote:
> > usenet5.TakeThisOut@stormbringer.clara.co.uk writes:
> > >
> > > Soon we'll have add-ons that stop your attacks/heals
> > > if they think you'll gain aggro by carrying them out, just
> > > to make life even easier.
> >
> > Now you see, that's a strawman argument, because
> > such action HAVE been specifically disallowed for
> > addons to perform. You can't do it. *
>
> That was kind of tongue-in-cheek. They've covered
> the obvious ways of doing it - intelligent buttons,
> cancelling your target, etc. There may well be a less
> obvious way of doing it. What about disabling/hiding
> a button? Or a bar of buttons? What about popping
> up a non-click-through invisible frame over the top of
> the button or button bar? I know that can be done,
> because I've had broken add-ons do it unintentionally.

None of those are actions an AddOn may perform during combat. There
are *very* strong restrictions on what actions are available to AddOns
during combat, for precisely that reason.

--
Nik
 >> Stay informed about: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? 

On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 19:16:13 -0700, chocolatemalt
<myothername DeleteThis @dim.com.removethis> wrote:

>In article <014fq31607tdhufr3tef1io1m3aq001a1t DeleteThis @4ax.com>,
> Marcel <marcel DeleteThis @marcel.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 14:23:00 -0700, chocolatemalt
>> <myothername DeleteThis @dim.com.removethis> wrote:
>
>> > It not only affects regular
>> >hits, Shield Slams, etc, but also Taunt, Mocking Blow, Shield Bash (for
>> >critical interrupts, e.g. channelers at Magtheridon) and so on. The
>> >miss rate against raid bosses is 9%, which is radically unacceptable
>> >when 24 other people might be depending on you to minimize the screw ups
>> >and prevent a wipe. Getting 142 hit rating may be unrealistic but
>> >something most of the way there is reasonable.
>> >
>> You only reach the 9% with the full 142 hit if you would ever reach
>> that with gear up to T4.
>> Above T5 it gets much easier to stack +hit and you will get it anyway
>> with the gear.
>> Below that it's unacceptable to gimp your stamina with 24 others
>> depending on you for just a bit more hit rating because that's what
>> your talking about with T4, a bit more.
>
>Getting an unlucky miss or two on crucial Shield Slams at the beginning
>of a fight is a far more common cause of wipes due to loss of aggro than
>a couple hundred HP. Likewise for Taunts... the raw 9% miss rate is an
>enormous (and enormously ignored) problem, particularly with spawned
>adds that will one-shot your healers if you're getting RESIST due to
>your terrible hit rate.
>
Which doesn't happen that much or my guild and me have to have been
extremely lucky since the start of WoW.
Besides that, if you wipe at the start of a fight IF the tank misses a
shield slam all dps deserve a huge kick in the behind for starting too
soon and not giving the tank time to build up aggro.
In the old days it was something like don't start dps before 3
sunders, these days it's don't start dps before a certain amount on
the threatmeter.
Regarding the taunt, loads of mobs/bosses are immnune anyway and on
those that aren't it hardly ever misses.
The loose of a couple of hundreds of HP however is a big issue.
Eg the first boss in Zul'Aman hits like a freight train and every bit
of extra stamina is more than welcome on him.
At the moment my hit rating is 29 and so far I haven't noticed the big
issues you seem to be talking about.
Normal/heroic instances, karazhan, gruul, ssc can all be tanked
without big problems with such a low hit rate.


>> >Achieving uncritability and extra stamina is important, but relatively
>> >easy with all the hybrid gems, enchants, and armor kits.
>> >
>> Most tanks I know including me go for the +12 blue stamina gem for
>> most gem slots while aiming for 490+ defense.
>
>This is the Nothing But Stamina approach that is pretty popular but
>still unwise. With T4 gear you're looking at 14k-ish unbuffed HP. For
>the vast majority of fights at that level it's not going to make a
>difference if you have 500 HP less, but it will make a big difference if
>your Taunts and Shield Slams are landing reliably.
>
If the T4 set isn't complete yet you're talking about much lower HP.
You should be thinking about 12.5K with kara gear and maybe 2 T4
items. (unbuffed, no stamina gems)
Stacking up stamina gems ( 9 is doable ) will give an extra 1K of
health.
And like I said before, I have no big problems at all with shield slam
and taunt landing reliably with a hit rating of 29.
Sometimes taunt misses but then there's always mocking blow to use
right after it.
Regarding the 500HP, like I said before, wouldn't want to miss it on
Nalorakk in Zul'Aman.

>Speaking of the Nothing But Stamina issue, a real common boss fight
>experience I've seen is good healers that have no trouble keeping a tank
>at 40%-90% health but then go completely /oom at 20% or so of boss HP
>and a wipe is inevitable. This is usually blamed on the healers but the
>tank ought to be examined as well -- did he go full-stamina at the
>expense of everything else, dodge/block/parry? In a 10-minute fight
>that's a giant burden on the healers.
>
Our healers have no problem to keep up tanks for the full 10 minutes,
sometimes an innervate is needed and pots will be used but that's
about it.

>> >> Most stuff up to kara and you're talking stacking +hit a bit earlier ?
>> >> Makes me wonder what gear we're talking about since there isn't much
>> >> making it easy to stack +hit at that moment in the game.
>> >
>> >Yep, it's tough. Only a head glyph and a boot enchant to help in the
>> >enchantment area, but there are many yellow and orange gems that can do
>> >the majority of the work.
>> >
>> The head glyph is +16 hit which is 1%
>> The tank glyphe however is +16 defense and +17 dodge.
>> No way I'm taking the hit one over the defense glyph.
>> Boots are enchanted with +12 stamina at the moment and you're
>> suggesting to change that for +10 hit rating ?
>> Regarding the yellow and orange, they will do some work, they will
>> gimp your stamina so you loose like a couple of hundred HP pretty
>> fast.
>
>The enchants are there only if you're desperate for the +hit. I'm not
>saying they're a good choice. However the gems are reasonable if your
>HP and defense are already good enough. The socket bonuses are small
>but can add up.
>
For most of the gear socket bonuses are a total waste compared to what
you can get by putting in the gems of your own choice.
Eg, 6 stamina, 3 dodge, 4 block.
With a free choice of gems you can get much better than those kind of
bonuses.
 >> Stay informed about: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? 

I think it was Marcel <marcel.TakeThisOut@marcel.invalid> that wrote something
like...

>On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 19:16:13 -0700, chocolatemalt
><myothername.TakeThisOut@dim.com.removethis> wrote:
>
>>In article <014fq31607tdhufr3tef1io1m3aq001a1t.TakeThisOut@4ax.com>,
>> Marcel <marcel.TakeThisOut@marcel.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 14:23:00 -0700, chocolatemalt
>>> <myothername.TakeThisOut@dim.com.removethis> wrote:
>>
>>> > It not only affects regular
>>> >hits, Shield Slams, etc, but also Taunt, Mocking Blow, Shield Bash (for
>>> >critical interrupts, e.g. channelers at Magtheridon) and so on. The
>>> >miss rate against raid bosses is 9%, which is radically unacceptable
>>> >when 24 other people might be depending on you to minimize the screw ups
>>> >and prevent a wipe. Getting 142 hit rating may be unrealistic but
>>> >something most of the way there is reasonable.
>>> >
>>> You only reach the 9% with the full 142 hit if you would ever reach
>>> that with gear up to T4.
>>> Above T5 it gets much easier to stack +hit and you will get it anyway
>>> with the gear.
>>> Below that it's unacceptable to gimp your stamina with 24 others
>>> depending on you for just a bit more hit rating because that's what
>>> your talking about with T4, a bit more.
>>
>>Getting an unlucky miss or two on crucial Shield Slams at the beginning
>>of a fight is a far more common cause of wipes due to loss of aggro than
>>a couple hundred HP. Likewise for Taunts... the raw 9% miss rate is an
>>enormous (and enormously ignored) problem, particularly with spawned
>>adds that will one-shot your healers if you're getting RESIST due to
>>your terrible hit rate.
>>
>Which doesn't happen that much or my guild and me have to have been
>extremely lucky since the start of WoW.
>Besides that, if you wipe at the start of a fight IF the tank misses a
>shield slam all dps deserve a huge kick in the behind for starting too
>soon and not giving the tank time to build up aggro.
>In the old days it was something like don't start dps before 3
>sunders, these days it's don't start dps before a certain amount on
>the threatmeter.
>Regarding the taunt, loads of mobs/bosses are immnune anyway and on
>those that aren't it hardly ever misses.
>The loose of a couple of hundreds of HP however is a big issue.
>Eg the first boss in Zul'Aman hits like a freight train and every bit
>of extra stamina is more than welcome on him.
>At the moment my hit rating is 29 and so far I haven't noticed the big
>issues you seem to be talking about.
>Normal/heroic instances, karazhan, gruul, ssc can all be tanked
>without big problems with such a low hit rate.

Diminishing returns.

It doesn't take all that much +hit to get a few % going. With my 65
warriors current tanking set she's got around 42 +hit which is enough
for something on the order of 3.5% or so. That's almost halfway
(percentage wise) to what she needs for mobs 3 levels higher than
herself (like raid bosses). Sure, the last half would take a *lot*
more +hit, but even that little +hit to halve how often you're missing
is sure to be a fair difference from having no +hit.

But as you say, it depends on who you're running with. In a guild at
post Kara level, you can be fairly safe in assuming the dps aren't
going to be so stupid as to ignore all common sense and nuke right
from the start. When you're pugging 5 man's though, common sense goes
*right* out the window, and if you want to get through to the end of
the run successfully, you'd better be ready to pull out all the stops.

Ashen Shugar
--
The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule!
 >> Stay informed about: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? 

In article <vj8hq3posd74rlv3lmvod45mr4jipdkacm RemoveThis @4ax.com>,
Marcel <marcel RemoveThis @marcel.invalid> wrote:

> The loose of a couple of hundreds of HP however is a big issue.
> Eg the first boss in Zul'Aman hits like a freight train and every bit
> of extra stamina is more than welcome on him.

Yep, I've tanked that guy. It's funny you should bring him up since the
standard tactic in that fight is dual-tanks with Taunt being critical to
shift his aggro after shapeshifts. If a Taunt is resisted it's a dicey
situation and a possible wipe. Of course you stance dance to get in a
Mocking Blow, hopefully in time, and then you race back into Defensive
Stance before you die from lack of mitigation and Shield Block. Any
glitches due to lag, healer delay, bad luck with crushing blows... bad
news.

And Mocking Blow has a huge drawback (in addition to the normal
stance-dance-and-GCD delay that might kill your tank buddy): It has no
permanent effect, unlike Taunt. If you have a 10,000+ threat deficit
you're going to have a real hard time making that up via standard Shield
Slams and Devastates before the Mocking Blow debuff wears off. Imp
Taunt helps, but there may still be a gap where you lose aggro and thus
a raid mate. The easiest solution is just to avoid Taunt resists as
much as possible, and +hit is the only method.

> At the moment my hit rating is 29 and so far I haven't noticed the big
> issues you seem to be talking about.
> Normal/heroic instances, karazhan, gruul, ssc can all be tanked
> without big problems with such a low hit rate.

I'm tanking the same stuff at the moment. A 29 hit rating seems pretty
low, but much better than the 0 (zilch, squat) that I've seen some tanks
flaunting. What is Recount (or similar) telling you about your
Taunt resist rate?

BTW you can get 22 hit rating in one item alone, the Brooch of Deftness
(http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33296) and a good chunk of expertise to
boot.

Another thing to consider is your TPS -- it's subject to the same
problems as any Rogue, Mage, Warlock, etc is with their DPS relative to
their hit rating. For most classes +hit is their most effective raid
stat, and the same applies to tanks and their Shield Slams. If you're
missing, your TPS suffers and everyone else in the raid has to dial back
their DPS to accommodate you.

> >This is the Nothing But Stamina approach that is pretty popular but
> >still unwise. With T4 gear you're looking at 14k-ish unbuffed HP. For
> >the vast majority of fights at that level it's not going to make a
> >difference if you have 500 HP less, but it will make a big difference if
> >your Taunts and Shield Slams are landing reliably.
> >
> If the T4 set isn't complete yet you're talking about much lower HP.
> You should be thinking about 12.5K with kara gear and maybe 2 T4
> items. (unbuffed, no stamina gems)

Yeah, I may have been including the Gruul gear and standard stamina
enchants.

> Regarding the 500HP, like I said before, wouldn't want to miss it on
> Nalorakk in Zul'Aman.

HP is always good but it seems to me there's a point of diminishing
returns where an extra 500 HP at the expense of avoidance, +hit, or
expertise is going to hurt you. Since most gear enchants have nice
stamina options and not much else, gems are the good place to look at
hybrids. You'll still get a decent chunk of stamina but also lots of
other useful stats. Most heroic epic gems are hybrids anyway, and the
green/orange/purple colors do a nice job of unlocking slot bonuses with
little effort, so it's a reasonable way to leverage the limited number
of gem slots you have.
 >> Stay informed about: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? 

gerryq wrote:
> On Feb 3, 9:37 pm, chocolatemalt <myothern....DeleteThis@dim.com.removethis>
> wrote:
>> In article <qd28q3tk9mlag7fdgg1ioi73r7gat55....DeleteThis@4ax.com>,
>> Catriona R <catrionarNOS....DeleteThis@totalise.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>> I hadn't realized that. Which encounters more or less require threat
>>>> meters to successfully complete them, as opposed to "They're nice to
>>>> have, and probably would save a few tries during the learning process"?
>
>> Prince Malchezar is a good example pointed out by some others here. You
>> get 101% of the tank's threat level and how would you even know? You
>> haven't pulled aggro since you haven't breached the 110% or 130% level
>> required, but when Enfeeble hits the tank... thanks a lot bud!
>
> He's an example, but not really a very strong example IMO. All that
> is necessary is for DPS-ers to take it very easy in Phase 1, and use
> any threat-dumping abilities they have towards the end of it, as
> Prince approaches 60% (how easy they have to take it beforehand
> depends on how much threat they can dump). Assuming they have BoS,
> they can safely go all out from then on, which is the only time it
> matters.
>
> So I would put threat meters in the 'nice to have' category for this
> encounter, as there is a straightforward strategy that can be adopted
> to get through it without one. I don't think a slow Phase 1 would be
> a problem for anything but the most marginal raid. DPS casters who
> run out of mana might perform better if they adopted this strategy
> anyway!

there are just a few real DPS races in 5man or Kara. And mostly you just
handle them by outgearing them - i.e. Prince in Kara is the "last" boss.
Or Nightbane, depending on how you see it.
Other DPS races are hidden - the "Time for fun" boss in Shadow Labs for
example. Most of these also have some random aggro component, yo threat
meters aren't really useful.

When you go further in content and get to enemies who have hard enrage
timers and are not easily outgeared, then the value of threat meters
comes to the foreground.

Examples:
- Hydross, pulling aggro on switchover. Stopping at the right moment,
but doing your best DPS.
- Even Lurker, when he comes up from a dive and looks in the wrong
direction, it gets really uncomfortable.
- I wouldn't want to see Tidewalker port the MT
- Leotheras must be catched anyway, but pulling aggro from his demon
isn't recommended.

Nearly all the bosses in ZA - you're running against time anyway if you
want some chest loot. You have to maximize DPS in order to have a chance.

Urs

--
Mano - Orc Shaman 70 - Mining & Jewelcrafter
Myno - Tauren Bear 70 - Skinning & Herbalism
Ratoma- Troll Rogue 28 - (Dis)Enchantress
Melony - Human Mage 16
and various others
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