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Since: May 18, 2006
Posts: 4130
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(Msg. 166) Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:20 pm
Post subject: Re: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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gerryq <gerryq RemoveThis @indigo.ie> writes:
>I don't believe a threat meter is needed at all for the Maulgar
>encounter.
Mostly, I agree. Because of how the adds work you're not likely to pull
aggro for most of them. On the other hand, Krosh is deadly if the mage
hasn't had a chance to build up a huge head of aggro. One aggro pull, one
fireball to the face, one dead raider. Well, not quite, but pretty close. I
think I got hit by one on a wipe and was left with 200 health or something
like that - 11k damage.
>By the time you get to the other adds and Maulgar himself, threat will
>be well established.
For Maulgar, yep - the tanks very likely have a huge lead on the raid.
>> Pull aggro even for a second on one of the brute ogres, and you'll see why
>> knowing threat level is a good thing. *
>
>Yes, but there are only three adds before Maulgar, and it's not a wipe
>if some dps die, so long as the tank gets the mob back.
It depends on what the player who pulled aggro does. If they run to the
tank and die, it's probably OK. If they run, it can get really ugly. Of
course, only a nitwit runs when they pull aggro at any time in a raid.
>For Gruul himself, a threat meter might be important. We are still
>having trouble with Maulgar, and wiping very early when we try Gruul,
>so we aren't at the point where I can give an opinion on the matter...
He's actually more forgiving than Prince, who kills the raid if you go even
one point over the tanks. DPSers have to run and hide periodically, which
helps a bit on staying below the tanks. But you have to throw everything
you have at him! *
--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews. |
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Since: Jan 23, 2008
Posts: 203
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(Msg. 167) Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:03 pm
Post subject: Re: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Since: Oct 11, 2007
Posts: 145
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(Msg. 168) Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:55 pm
Post subject: Re: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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PV <pv+usenet@pobox.com> wrote:
> >You do know the monster has you on his hate list, you can tell
> >because it puts you in combat. Why does it make more sense to know
> >that one more fireball will be exactly the right number to make the
> >monster angry enough to come eat you, taking into account what
>
> It doesn't work that way, since you don't know how much damage "one more
> fireball" would add, and there are other complicating factors.
Who said dots? 
--
Candido >> Stay informed about: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? |
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Since: Sep 28, 2007
Posts: 54
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(Msg. 169) Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:24 pm
Post subject: Re: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 10:59:53 +0000, Barry Freeman <bazz.TakeThisOut@nospam.co.uk>
wrote:
>On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:33:08 +0100, Marcel <marcel.TakeThisOut@marcel.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>Taunt gives the tank just enough threat to pull the mob of the person
>>who stole aggro.
>
>No, it give the tank the SAME threat as the current top of the threat
>list.
>
The same AND attention, have it that way then 
>The tank must do something to increase his threat to pull the mob off
>it's current target.
>
Not true, there's nothing else besides taunt a tank needs to do to
gain attention.
Which can be seen with target of target as soon as taunt has been
used.
Offcourse you need to do something with that attention to avoid
loosing it again. >> Stay informed about: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? |
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Since: Sep 28, 2007
Posts: 54
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(Msg. 170) Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:53 pm
Post subject: Re: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 02:59:10 GMT, deathsabyss DeleteThis @yahoo.com.au (Ashen
Shugar) wrote:
>I think it was Marcel <marcel DeleteThis @marcel.invalid> that wrote something
>like...
>
>>On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:22:43 GMT, deathsabyss DeleteThis @yahoo.com.au (Ashen
>>Shugar) wrote:
>>>
>>>Heheh, yup, threat meter's only take the fun out of the game if you
>>>let em! Trash fights, it shouldn't matter if you steal agro. The
>>>tank should be able to taunt the mob back soon enough, and it'll give
>>>the tanks threat a boost too, so the other dps can let lose a bit
>>>more. The only time you really want to pay *serious* attention to a
>>>threat meter is if the mob can't be taunted. Or if you're in a
>>>totally anal guild that's going to freak if you pull agro no matter
>>>what the situation. ; )
>>>
>>Taunt gives the tank just enough threat to pull the mob of the person
>>who stole aggro.
>>Besides that it doesn't really boost and/or create threat.
>>It's more like getting attention back from a mob for three seconds in
>>which you need to build up aggro asap again.
>
>Not exactly. You get *complete* attention back from the mob after
>which you only need to keep in front of everyone else.
>
Only ?
Depending on the people/classes in the party/raid staying in front
might not be that easy as it sounds here.
>Now if a mage
>got right to the limit of pulling agro them PoM Pyro-critted the mob,
>then the tank would get the threat of 5K or whatever damage for the
>low low cost of 0 rage if you're a warrior (and taunt wasn't resisted,
>but who in their right mind isn't stacking +hit and making that rather
>unlikely? And unless we're talking bosses, where the dps is likely to
>be more careful, there are still thing's like concussion blow,
>hamstring and mocking blow if you're up for stance dancing to keep the
>mobs busy while you're waiting for another chance to taunt)
>
Who in their right mind IS stacking +hit as a tank ?
Unless your above T4 level a tank will be focussing on defense and
stamina.
>Anyway, while yeah, the mage will still only need another 30% threat
>to pull agro again (though that 30% is going to be more real threat
>than it was before) all the other dps are going to need a LOT more
>real threat to pull agro that they did just seconds ago.
>
Dots anyone ?
>>Biggest downside of loosing aggro to someone in a raid/party is the
>>time between loosing the mob and getting it back.
>>In that little bit of time especially the ranged people will most
>>likely continue to attack increasing their threat as well.
>
>But once you do successfully taunt, it doesn't matter how much threat
>you missed out on generating by yourself, as you've stolen all the
>threat that the person that pulled agro had generated, which was
>obviously more than you were generating. ; )
>
Dots anyone ?
You're just talking about that one person but in a party/raid there's
more people involved.
Depending on how lucky/unlucky you are and what you're facing that bit
of time might be enough for eg a warlock to come real close.
Put in some crits and you have another one pulling more aggro just
after the taunt.
>>And last but not least, mobs can resist taunt as well and it has at
>>least 8 sec cooldown (depending on the spec)
>
>Answered that above. Any situation where it's going to be a big deal,
>boss fights, heroics, raids, then the dps are likely to be paying more
>attention. But in my experience, (that being most stuff up to Kara),
>it's not likely to be a serious problem.
>
Most stuff up to kara and you're talking stacking +hit a bit earlier ?
Makes me wonder what gear we're talking about since there isn't much
making it easy to stack +hit at that moment in the game. >> Stay informed about: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? |
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Since: May 18, 2006
Posts: 4130
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(Msg. 171) Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:56 pm
Post subject: Re: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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lcpltom <lcpltom.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> writes:
>The great thing about dots is their threat generation is very slow.
>Its the DD spells which push the threat to a point where the dots
>might pull aggro. If aggro is pulled and the only spells I have on
It all depends on timing. If I drop all 4 of my dots on the mob at the same
time as the pull, or if I'm within a couple thousand threat of the tank,
I'll still pull aggro after a couple ticks. They HURT when you have +1300
buffed shadow damage (not counting totem and other in-combat damage buffs).
When I've gotten to the top of the threat list, I juggle dots and take
non-instant shadowbolts out of the rotation until I'm in a safer place. If
the boss is under 75% health, I'll soulshatter and keep on blasting
instead.
>the target are dots, I'm still doing damage, but at such a slow rate
>that the tank has an easier time pulling aggro back off me.
Just don't put your dot on a secondary target accidentally - that will ruin
your whole day. *
--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews. >> Stay informed about: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? |
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Since: May 02, 2005
Posts: 157
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(Msg. 172) Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:07 pm
Post subject: Re: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Dan wrote:
> The fact that they are considering adding a built-in threatmeter now
> is probably just a grudging acknowledgement of the fact that
> everyone is using them anyway, to the point where they now assume
> you have them when they design the raid encounters.
I hadn't realized that. Which encounters more or less require threat
meters to successfully complete them, as opposed to "They're nice to
have, and probably would save a few tries during the learning process"?
--
"Sorry, but I consider lack of a 'pause me' command [in World of
Warcraft] to be a bug. At the very least, a lack of needed feature.
fwiw, I am a programmer by profession."
-Burt Johnson, alt.games.warcraft, 11 Jan 2006 >> Stay informed about: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? |
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Since: Dec 15, 2007
Posts: 186
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(Msg. 173) Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:16 am
Post subject: Re: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:39:40 -0000, pv+usenet@pobox.com (PV) wrote:
>gerryq <gerryq.RemoveThis@indigo.ie> writes:
>>provide in game cues that players could use (somewhere around 120% on
>>a ranged character, a mob might be likely to snarl at the character,
>>for example).
>
>I would be totally cool with that, and would drop Omen in a second if it
>came up. We use omen because there ISN'T such a thing right now, just like
>we use timers because there isn't a way to tell that boss is about to use a
>special ability that must be countered immediately. *
The snarling bit would be quite cool, but in the mean time I like
Omen's "Drums O'Doom". I have the audible warning turned on, and it
can make quite a rukus, pretty much sounds like a John Bohnam drum
solo sometimes. 
----
Gnuthulhu, Undead Warlock
Fthagn, Undead Warrior
Rhyleya, Troll Hunter
Wydefoote, Tauren Shaman
Curwen, Blood Knight
Thunderhorn,US >> Stay informed about: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? |
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Since: Dec 15, 2007
Posts: 186
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(Msg. 174) Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:16 am
Post subject: Re: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 17:02:22 -0000, pv+usenet@pobox.com (PV) wrote:
>
>That is 100% the opposite of what the blue post said. Having threat level
>exposed lets them make more interesting encounters, such as DPS races,
>where going all out would have been an instant wipe. DPS races in the days
>before meters were a guild-breaking mess - part of the reason raiding
>didn't progress much pre-BC was Vael, who killed raids dead if even one
>player grabbed aggro for a second.
Just a quick funny story, but the same thing can happen if the MT has
a mental lapse and pulls Vael with his back to the raid instead of the
throne. Poof! Fastest and funniest Vael wipe ever.
----
Gnuthulhu, Undead Warlock
Fthagn, Undead Warrior
Rhyleya, Troll Hunter
Wydefoote, Tauren Shaman
Curwen, Blood Knight
Thunderhorn,US >> Stay informed about: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? |
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Since: Dec 15, 2007
Posts: 186
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(Msg. 175) Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:16 am
Post subject: Re: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:46:39 +0100, candido2k.TakeThisOut@gmail.com (Candido)
wrote:
>Dale <abuse.TakeThisOut@webeye.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Neither is spending 1 hour killing trash mobs and a wipe occurs because
>> the healer slips off a ledge and dies. Does that mean there should be
>> an add-on to tell you how close you are to a ledge? LBRS is a nightmare
>> for ledges!
>
>SCC too But 1 healer less is not a wipe, talking about raids. An
>overaggro could be, talking about raids.
>
>Try to overaggro at the wrong time with hydross... 4 more adds... tank
>get the boss back: 4 more adds... another one overaggro: 4 more adds....
>yey!
Ah but here again a threat meter doesn't help due to the aggro wipe at
the transition. The key is doing absolutely *nothing* during the
move, and if at all possible move to the side the tank is on (well
that's not really possible but you can always hope that if someone
does do something to get aggro they're on the "right" side).
----
Gnuthulhu, Undead Warlock
Fthagn, Undead Warrior
Rhyleya, Troll Hunter
Wydefoote, Tauren Shaman
Curwen, Blood Knight
Thunderhorn,US >> Stay informed about: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? |
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Since: Aug 14, 2005
Posts: 4810
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(Msg. 176) Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:14 am
Post subject: Re: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 1 Feb 2008 20:07:41 GMT, Yeechang Lee <ylee DeleteThis @pobox.com> wrote:
>Dan wrote:
>> The fact that they are considering adding a built-in threatmeter now
>> is probably just a grudging acknowledgement of the fact that
>> everyone is using them anyway, to the point where they now assume
>> you have them when they design the raid encounters.
>
>I hadn't realized that. Which encounters more or less require threat
>meters to successfully complete them, as opposed to "They're nice to
>have, and probably would save a few tries during the learning process"?
There's none in 5-man or 10-man groups, anyway, as I've cleared all of Kara
and ZA without one installed. Likewise I've killed Gruul without one,
although I can well see that it would be a strong recommendation, if not
requirement, for the tanks and higher-threat dps to have one on Gruul, to
stop him one-shotting any non-tank who gets 2nd on threat.
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 70)
Naomh - Draenei Priest (lvl 70)
Rosad - Human Warlock (lvl 70)
Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 70)
Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 70)
Eilnich - Blood Elf Warlock (lvl 60)
Beag - Dwarf Paladin (lvl 60)
Sgoildubh - Human Mage (lvl 53)
Cathach - Gnome Warrior (lvl 30) >> Stay informed about: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? |
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Since: May 18, 2006
Posts: 4130
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(Msg. 177) Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:56 pm
Post subject: Re: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Alphawolf <gnuthulhu DeleteThis @gmail.com> writes:
>Just a quick funny story, but the same thing can happen if the MT has
>a mental lapse and pulls Vael with his back to the raid instead of the
>throne. Poof! Fastest and funniest Vael wipe ever.
My favorite Vael wipe was a hunter that accidentally left growl on
autocast. Tank pulls, flame pulse hits pet, who autoattacks, growls, and
Vael takes out every last healer in one breath when he turns to attack the
pet. *
--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews. >> Stay informed about: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? |
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Since: Mar 26, 2007
Posts: 293
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(Msg. 178) Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:23 pm
Post subject: Re: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article <uvo6q314h6op1al0g5i202qihi996h37ma.DeleteThis@4ax.com>,
Marcel <marcel.DeleteThis@marcel.invalid> wrote:
> On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 02:59:10 GMT, deathsabyss.DeleteThis@yahoo.com.au (Ashen
> Shugar) wrote:
> >Now if a mage
> >got right to the limit of pulling agro them PoM Pyro-critted the mob,
> >then the tank would get the threat of 5K or whatever damage for the
> >low low cost of 0 rage if you're a warrior (and taunt wasn't resisted,
> >but who in their right mind isn't stacking +hit and making that rather
> >unlikely? And unless we're talking bosses, where the dps is likely to
> >be more careful, there are still thing's like concussion blow,
> >hamstring and mocking blow if you're up for stance dancing to keep the
> >mobs busy while you're waiting for another chance to taunt)
> >
> Who in their right mind IS stacking +hit as a tank ?
> Unless your above T4 level a tank will be focussing on defense and
> stamina.
Only ignorant tanks are not stacking +hit. It not only affects regular
hits, Shield Slams, etc, but also Taunt, Mocking Blow, Shield Bash (for
critical interrupts, e.g. channelers at Magtheridon) and so on. The
miss rate against raid bosses is 9%, which is radically unacceptable
when 24 other people might be depending on you to minimize the screw ups
and prevent a wipe. Getting 142 hit rating may be unrealistic but
something most of the way there is reasonable.
Achieving uncritability and extra stamina is important, but relatively
easy with all the hybrid gems, enchants, and armor kits.
> Most stuff up to kara and you're talking stacking +hit a bit earlier ?
> Makes me wonder what gear we're talking about since there isn't much
> making it easy to stack +hit at that moment in the game.
Yep, it's tough. Only a head glyph and a boot enchant to help in the
enchantment area, but there are many yellow and orange gems that can do
the majority of the work. >> Stay informed about: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? |
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Since: Mar 26, 2007
Posts: 293
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(Msg. 179) Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:37 pm
Post subject: Re: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article <qd28q3tk9mlag7fdgg1ioi73r7gat55fam.TakeThisOut@4ax.com>,
Catriona R <catrionarNOSPAM.TakeThisOut@totalise.co.uk> wrote:
> On 1 Feb 2008 20:07:41 GMT, Yeechang Lee <ylee.TakeThisOut@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> >Dan wrote:
> >> The fact that they are considering adding a built-in threatmeter now
> >> is probably just a grudging acknowledgement of the fact that
> >> everyone is using them anyway, to the point where they now assume
> >> you have them when they design the raid encounters.
> >
> >I hadn't realized that. Which encounters more or less require threat
> >meters to successfully complete them, as opposed to "They're nice to
> >have, and probably would save a few tries during the learning process"?
>
> There's none in 5-man or 10-man groups, anyway, as I've cleared all of Kara
> and ZA without one installed. Likewise I've killed Gruul without one,
> although I can well see that it would be a strong recommendation, if not
> requirement, for the tanks and higher-threat dps to have one on Gruul, to
> stop him one-shotting any non-tank who gets 2nd on threat.
Yeah, it's far too easy for rogues and other dps'ers to overtake the
secondary tank on Gruul. After all, that off-tank (if warrior or bear
druid) is getting no rage from incoming hits and therefore struggling
with TPS unless they're standing in cave-ins the whole time. This is
where the dps'ers and the off-tank together need to watch the threat
meter closely.
Void Reaver is another fight where threat levels can't be guessed at.
The boss is constantly squelching the aggro that the tanks have on him
and it's very easy for a dps'er to win the insta-death contest.
Prince Malchezar is a good example pointed out by some others here. You
get 101% of the tank's threat level and how would you even know? You
haven't pulled aggro since you haven't breached the 110% or 130% level
required, but when Enfeeble hits the tank... thanks a lot bud! >> Stay informed about: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? |
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Posts: 293
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(Msg. 180) Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:40 pm
Post subject: Re: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article <6n98q359o0snqlp6ujjg6hl2jgk81u9opk RemoveThis @4ax.com>,
Alphawolf <gnuthulhu RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:39:40 -0000, pv+usenet@pobox.com (PV) wrote:
>
> >gerryq <gerryq RemoveThis @indigo.ie> writes:
> >>provide in game cues that players could use (somewhere around 120% on
> >>a ranged character, a mob might be likely to snarl at the character,
> >>for example).
> >
> >I would be totally cool with that, and would drop Omen in a second if it
> >came up. We use omen because there ISN'T such a thing right now, just like
> >we use timers because there isn't a way to tell that boss is about to use a
> >special ability that must be countered immediately. *
>
> The snarling bit would be quite cool, but in the mean time I like
> Omen's "Drums O'Doom". I have the audible warning turned on, and it
> can make quite a rukus, pretty much sounds like a John Bohnam drum
> solo sometimes.
I like it! The tank threat bar at the top of the meter is the "levee",
and the dps'er bars piling against it from below are the waters
threatening to break it. And a bad tank is a mean ole levee that taught
us to weep and moan. >> Stay informed about: what's with all the talk about "Kara" ? |
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