Which system?

M C wrote:
> Hello Shawn,
> > Well, the obvious answer is the obvious answer- Mutants and
> > Masterminds, which is d20 based. It's not identical to DnD (in more
> > ways than a different subject), but it is fundamentally the same
> > system.
> Well, Silver Age Sentinels has a d20 flavor, too, and I know it would be
> easier to transition as the core system is familliar but I was not sure if
> it (d20) is a good system for superheroes.
>
> I am not really sure of my choices, though:
> M&M, Silver Age Sentinels, Champions/HERO, GURPS(?), Heroes Unlimited....
> Are there any other currently in print superhero systems?
>
> MC

GURPS handling of the supers genre is a bit cumbersome, and I
personally would avoid it. I personally tend to use and prefer the
Champions/Hero system. I do not have any familiarity with any of the
other systems.

Mark Sebree
 >> Stay informed about: Which system? 

<sebree.RemoveThis@infionline.net> wrote in message
news:1129571299.323336.256610@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> M C wrote:
>> Hello Shawn,
>> > Well, the obvious answer is the obvious answer- Mutants and
>> > Masterminds, which is d20 based. It's not identical to DnD (in more
>> > ways than a different subject), but it is fundamentally the same
>> > system.
>> Well, Silver Age Sentinels has a d20 flavor, too, and I know it would be
>> easier to transition as the core system is familliar but I was not sure
>> if
>> it (d20) is a good system for superheroes.
>>
>> I am not really sure of my choices, though:
>> M&M, Silver Age Sentinels, Champions/HERO, GURPS(?), Heroes Unlimited....
>> Are there any other currently in print superhero systems?
>>
>> MC
>
> GURPS handling of the supers genre is a bit cumbersome, and I
> personally would avoid it. I personally tend to use and prefer the
> Champions/Hero system. I do not have any familiarity with any of the
> other systems.
>
> Mark Sebree
>
I agree with Mark. Another vote for Champions/Hero.
 >> Stay informed about: Which system? 

Hello Shawn,
> Well, the obvious answer is the obvious answer- Mutants and
> Masterminds, which is d20 based. It's not identical to DnD (in more
> ways than a different subject), but it is fundamentally the same
> system.
Well, Silver Age Sentinels has a d20 flavor, too, and I know it would be
easier to transition as the core system is familliar but I was not sure if
it (d20) is a good system for superheroes.

I am not really sure of my choices, though:
M&M, Silver Age Sentinels, Champions/HERO, GURPS(?), Heroes Unlimited....
Are there any other currently in print superhero systems?

MC
 >> Stay informed about: Which system? 

On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:20:01 GMT, M C <hawaiianpunch_66.TakeThisOut@mail.com>
wrote:

>Hello Shawn,
>> Well, the obvious answer is the obvious answer- Mutants and
>> Masterminds, which is d20 based. It's not identical to DnD (in more
>> ways than a different subject), but it is fundamentally the same
>> system.
>Well, Silver Age Sentinels has a d20 flavor, too, and I know it would be
>easier to transition as the core system is familliar but I was not sure if
>it (d20) is a good system for superheroes.
>
>I am not really sure of my choices, though:
>M&M, Silver Age Sentinels, Champions/HERO, GURPS(?), Heroes Unlimited....
> Are there any other currently in print superhero systems?

Heros Unlimited is a tacked together ungainly game that combines the
worst features of design driven and random.

The Tri-stat Silver Age Sentinels is superb for an easy to use
alternative. The mechanics for character design and combat are simpler
than those for M&M, Hero and GURPS. But I'd actually recommend Big
Eyes Small Mouth in preference because it is cheaper and not much
different.

Hero is excellent for people who like to control character design and
combat pretty much down to the last detail. However it does tend to
require a lot of bookkeeping and is best suited to GMs with good
organisational skills. Large fights can be brutally slow so it is
better suited to small groups of players.

Mutants and Masterminds, 2nd edition, is rather elegant, less finicky
and faster moving than Hero, but more detailed than Tri-stat SAS.
I've never seen d20 SAS but from what I've heard, M&M does the same
thing better. However SAS does have a better gallery of pregenerated
villains, for what that's worth.

The new edition of GURPS has corrected almost all of the systemic
flaws that have given it a bad reputation as a superhero system.
Character design and combat are less finicky than that of Hero, but it
is still more detailed than the other competitors. However, until
GURPS Powers comes out and that still seems to be a few months away,
it won't really be a complete system for superheroic use.
 >> Stay informed about: Which system? 

On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:20:01 GMT, M C <hawaiianpunch_66 DeleteThis @mail.com>
wrote:


> Are there any other currently in print superhero systems?

Oops. There's also Living Legends, but I've never actually seen it.
It just came out and it's a revamped version of a game system that was
a true classic in it's day.
 >> Stay informed about: Which system? 

M C wrote:
> Hello Mark,
> > personally would avoid it. I personally tend to use and prefer the
> > Champions/Hero system.
> Mark, thanks for the feedback. What makes you prefer the Champions/HERO
> system?
>
> Thanks.
>
> MC

For starters, in my case, it is familiarity. I have been playing the
system for 20 years, since Second Edition. Another is flexibility.
Almost anything can be modeled if you use enough points and some
creativity. It is also usually easy to get a rough estimate of the
power levels of attacks and defenses, and thus determine how difficult
an opponent is relative to the heros. Also, complete immunity to
attacks is impossible to get. There are always ways around or through
the defenses, especially with "special" attacks. (usually, these are
ones that have No Normal Defense, and there is always something that
protects entirely from the attack.)

Mark Sebree
 >> Stay informed about: Which system? 

Hello Mark,
> personally would avoid it. I personally tend to use and prefer the
> Champions/Hero system.
Mark, thanks for the feedback. What makes you prefer the Champions/HERO
system?

Thanks.

MC
 >> Stay informed about: Which system? 

Hello Warren,
> I agree with Mark. Another vote for Champions/Hero.
Thanks for the feedback. What makes you vote the Champions/HERO system?

Thanks.

MC
 >> Stay informed about: Which system? 

"M C" <hawaiian_punch66 RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bf8af06e30548c7a1f7004e7798@news.usenetserver.com...
> Hello Warren,
>> I agree with Mark. Another vote for Champions/Hero.
> Thanks for the feedback. What makes you vote the Champions/HERO system?


Since people are voting for Champions, let me cast my vote AGAINST it. It
is too complicated and too cumbersome for relative newcomers to RPGs. M&M
covers most of the same bases, and is much easier. Besides, Champions,
while it has its points, isn't that good a game.
 >> Stay informed about: Which system? 

You are making the assumption that 'gamers are stupid'.

We first started champs around '81.

At that point most of the group had played only AD&D, and remember
it was a lot simpler back then.

And we figured it out without any problems. Sure once or twice at the
beginning we realized on a given week that on a prior week maybe we
should could have run something differently, or had to adjust the rules
for play balance. But there was no problem and we all had a lot of fun.

I had actually played Dragonquest a few times by then, which is IMO
a lot more complex than Champions.

At one stretch a few years later we went through a 'new RPG of the week'
phase
and played dozens of RPG's just to try them. Anyone remember 'Space
Opera'?

It is true that about half the group had done wargames in the past, and
there are probably no RPG rules IMO as overly complex as the old table-top
SPI game rules. But I think it's unfair to assume that gamers are brainless
and
can't figure out anything as simple as the Hero system.

And if they are that brainless, they probably ought not to be let out
of the monkey cage, let alone let down to the gaming store to
buy dice

DMU


"Shawn Wilson" <Ikonoqlast.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3wb5f.2705$UF4.1494@fed1read02...
>
> "M C" <hawaiian_punch66.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:bf8af06e30548c7a1f7004e7798@news.usenetserver.com...
>> Hello Warren,
>>> I agree with Mark. Another vote for Champions/Hero.
>> Thanks for the feedback. What makes you vote the Champions/HERO system?
>
>
> Since people are voting for Champions, let me cast my vote AGAINST it. It
> is too complicated and too cumbersome for relative newcomers to RPGs. M&M
> covers most of the same bases, and is much easier. Besides, Champions,
> while it has its points, isn't that good a game.
>
 >> Stay informed about: Which system? 

"David Union" <d.union@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:HGh5f.11383$f02.8231@trndny02...

> You are making the assumption that 'gamers are stupid'.


Uh, no...




> We first started champs around '81.


It was around '84 for me.




> At that point most of the group had played only AD&D, and remember
> it was a lot simpler back then.



Actually, AD&D was pretty complicated back then. It had different systems
for everything. It's much simpler now.




> And we figured it out without any problems. Sure once or twice at the
> beginning we realized on a given week that on a prior week maybe we
> should could have run something differently, or had to adjust the rules
> for play balance. But there was no problem and we all had a lot of fun.


Good for you.





> I had actually played Dragonquest a few times by then, which is IMO
> a lot more complex than Champions.


Every game had different systems for everything, what were people thinking?



> At one stretch a few years later we went through a 'new RPG of the week'
> phase
> and played dozens of RPG's just to try them. Anyone remember 'Space
> Opera'?


Fondly.



> It is true that about half the group had done wargames in the past, and
> there are probably no RPG rules IMO as overly complex as the old table-top
> SPI game rules. But I think it's unfair to assume that gamers are
> brainless and
> can't figure out anything as simple as the Hero system.


But I didn't make that assumption. I said is was too complicated and
cumbersome, not that it wasn't learnable. The problem with Champions is
that the game rules get in the way of the game. Specifically, the Speed
Table.
 >> Stay informed about: Which system? 

On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 01:53:43 GMT, "David Union" <d.union@verizon.net>
wrote:

>You are making the assumption that 'gamers are stupid'.
>
>We first started champs around '81.
>
>At that point most of the group had played only AD&D, and remember
>it was a lot simpler back then.
>
>And we figured it out without any problems.

I can say the same. But combat _never_ got fast and dramatic even
after I'd been using the system for years.
 >> Stay informed about: Which system? 

Shawn Wilson wrote:
>
> But I didn't make that assumption. I said is was too complicated and
> cumbersome, not that it wasn't learnable. The problem with Champions is
> that the game rules get in the way of the game. Specifically, the Speed
> Table.

Maybe in your experience but not so much in mine. My girlfriend, with
all of about a half-dozen sessions of D&D 3.5 as her entire RPG
experience, picked up the Hero System with no problem. She had the
basics of game play down within the first session. At least as quick
as she picked up D&D 3.5. Plus she's hardly an isolated case; just the
most recent for our group. One player's daughter joined our group at
the age of 15 as her first ever RPG and managed to pick it up quick
enough. Several members of our group run demos at cons and don't run
into problems teaching new players. Maybe we're all just really good
teachers.

As for the claims of combat taking forever (as someone on this thread
mentioned, but I don't remember exactly who), I've not found Hero
Combat to take much longer than other systems. Certainly not more than
D&D 3.x. In fact, the most common slow downs are the same as I've
found in any system: 1) player familiarity (which slowed us down a lot
in our recent venture into Harn as well as with Fading Suns a few years
ago) and 2) player indecision. In Hero, each action represents a few
seconds and if it's taking you more than a minute to decide what to do,
the GM isn't cracking the whip enough.

Now, you mentioned the Speed Chart slowing things down and I'm curious
as to how. Perhaps you've used it in a different fashion than we do.
Our GMs put together a list ahead of time containing the expected
combatants organized according to the speed chart. If anything changes
the order (unexpected parties showing up or events changing initiative
scores), it's a simple matter to make a note on the list. Then it's
just a matter of calling out who's action it is as the combat
progresses. Ten-fifteen minutes prep before the game seems to take
care of any speed chart slowdown.

Perhaps it would be more helpful to the original poster if you gave an
overview of your take on the Hero System's 5 biggest flaws. That way,
at least, he'll be able to tell if they're anything he cares about. Of
course, that would only work if you're willing to be specific about
them.
 >> Stay informed about: Which system?