Best system for balance between superpowered and unpowered..

In article <c7i422$9vf$1@news.cybercity.dk>,
Peter Knutsen <peter.RemoveThis@knutsen.dk> wrote:

> If some of the players want to make heroes with supernatural
> powers, and others want to make heroes without such powers,
> which character creation system works best to maximize fun and
> minimize frustration?
>
> Secondary question: Which superhero character creation system
> offers the widest selection of cool, non-supernatural abilities?
> The normals will need something to spend their points on, after
> all...

I'd recomend Champions (HERO System) in your case. It doesn't make a
distinction between "supernatural" and "conventional" abilities. The
trick is to think of the ability first, and then figure out how to build
it (not always a simple task).

--
Joe Claffey | "Make no small plans."
jrc3.RemoveThis@cox.net | -- Daniel Burnham
 >> Stay informed about: Best system for balance between superpowered and unpowered.. 

rgormannospam RemoveThis @telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote in message news:<409c8e51.570336955 RemoveThis @news.telusplanet.net>...
> On Sat, 08 May 2004 10:01:12 +0200, Peter Knutsen <peter RemoveThis @knutsen.dk>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >If some of the players want to make heroes with supernatural
> >powers, and others want to make heroes without such powers,
>
> Does a gadget hero have "supernatural" powers or not?
>
> >which character creation system works best to maximize fun and
> >minimize frustration?
> >
> >Secondary question: Which superhero character creation system
> >offers the widest selection of cool, non-supernatural abilities?
>
> GURPS. Mind you the supernatural abilities are not so great.

This is suposed to get better with the fourth edition due out in
August, but no word yet on how. The current version isn't terible,
but it requires a lot more experience on the part of the GM and
players in knowing which optional rules to use to make it work. Also,
the fact that gurps 3rd ed. Supers is beter suited to low power games
might actualy work well for a mixed group of supers and normals.
 >> Stay informed about: Best system for balance between superpowered and unpowered.. 

On Sat, 08 May 2004 10:01:12 +0200, Peter Knutsen <peter.DeleteThis@knutsen.dk>
wrote:

>
>If some of the players want to make heroes with supernatural
>powers, and others want to make heroes without such powers,
>which character creation system works best to maximize fun and
>minimize frustration?
>

Depends how broadly you define "super powers". Most superhero games
have the capacity to create avowedly normal characters who are
balanced with superhuman ones, but only in the sense that Batman and
many fictional martial artists are "normal". Otherwise I think it's
an oxymoron barring heavy GM screentime enforcement (and I think that
would require almost irrational levels of contrivance to work).

>Secondary question: Which superhero character creation system
>offers the widest selection of cool, non-supernatural abilities?
>The normals will need something to spend their points on, after
>all...

Again, depends on what you mean by non-supernatural.
 >> Stay informed about: Best system for balance between superpowered and unpowered.. 

Wayne Shaw <shaw.TakeThisOut@caprica.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 08 May 2004 10:01:12 +0200, Peter Knutsen <peter.TakeThisOut@knutsen.dk>
>wrote:

>>If some of the players want to make heroes with supernatural
>>powers, and others want to make heroes without such powers,
>>which character creation system works best to maximize fun and
>>minimize frustration?

>Depends how broadly you define "super powers". Most superhero games
>have the capacity to create avowedly normal characters who are
>balanced with superhuman ones, but only in the sense that Batman and
>many fictional martial artists are "normal".

I agree. A game like Champions allows you to create "normal"
characters who can easily play in the same league as the
super-powered types. The way it works, though, is essentially
to turn the normals into superheroes. Either they have gadgets
that mimic and fill in for superpowers, or they have capabilities
that are really just plain not possible for a normal human
being. For example, it's very easy to use the martial arts
rules to create a normal human who hits just as hard as
a guy who can lift a tank. But they're still normal, going
by the rules of the game and genre.

GURPS is similar. Normal characters either make use of
superpowered gadgets, or abilities that might as well
be supernatural such as Trained By A Master level
martial arts. As someone else said, GURPS might be
a better choice for a mixed normal/supers game since
the superpowers are in general not all that powerful.

Another thing I noticed long ago about GURPS is that
someone with the Guns skill and access to even commercially
available weapons and armor can easily be as powerful as
most super-types. This is good for some campaign concepts,
and very bad for others.

> Otherwise I think it's
>an oxymoron barring heavy GM screentime enforcement (and I think that
>would require almost irrational levels of contrivance to work).

Yeah. It works fine in comic books, because the writers can
easily manage that kind of contrivance. In a game where the
GM doesn't have complete control of all the characters, though,
it can easily be a recipe for disaster.

Pete
 >> Stay informed about: Best system for balance between superpowered and unpowered.. 

Wayne Shaw wrote:
> On Sat, 08 May 2004 10:01:12 +0200, Peter Knutsen <peter.RemoveThis@knutsen.dk>
> wrote:
>>If some of the players want to make heroes with supernatural
>>powers, and others want to make heroes without such powers,
>>which character creation system works best to maximize fun and
>>minimize frustration?
>
> Depends how broadly you define "super powers". Most superhero games
> have the capacity to create avowedly normal characters who are
> balanced with superhuman ones, but only in the sense that Batman and

Batman is a normal, as he has no supenatural powers. The same
goes for that martial artist from the 3000 AD Legion of
Superheroes or whatever it's called (I've only read about it in
Danish translations, so I'm not sure of the original name of the
team, but it's DC).

> many fictional martial artists are "normal". Otherwise I think it's
> an oxymoron barring heavy GM screentime enforcement (and I think that
> would require almost irrational levels of contrivance to work).

Hero attempts to achieve it with the "Normal Characteristics
Maxima" disad. Are there other superhero systems that strives
for something similar?

>>Secondary question: Which superhero character creation system
>>offers the widest selection of cool, non-supernatural abilities?
>>The normals will need something to spend their points on, after
>>all...
>
> Again, depends on what you mean by non-supernatural.

Not in violation of the laws of physics.

--
Peter Knutsen
 >> Stay informed about: Best system for balance between superpowered and unpowered.. 

Peter Knutsen wrote:

>
> Wayne Shaw wrote:
>
>> Again, depends on what you mean by non-supernatural.
>
> Not in violation of the laws of physics.

By that definition, Batman and Karate Kid (your examples of normals)
are on occassion supernatural.
 >> Stay informed about: Best system for balance between superpowered and unpowered.. 

On Sun, 09 May 2004 05:52:54 +0200, Peter Knutsen <peter.TakeThisOut@knutsen.dk>
wrote:

>> Depends how broadly you define "super powers". Most superhero games
>> have the capacity to create avowedly normal characters who are
>> balanced with superhuman ones, but only in the sense that Batman and
>
>Batman is a normal, as he has no supenatural powers. The same
>goes for that martial artist from the 3000 AD Legion of
>Superheroes or whatever it's called (I've only read about it in
>Danish translations, so I'm not sure of the original name of the
>team, but it's DC).

Karate Kid? The guy who demolished tanks with his bare hands?
If that's "normal" then any given system can handle normals
just as easily as guys with powers.
 >> Stay informed about: Best system for balance between superpowered and unpowered.. 

"Peter Knutsen" <peter RemoveThis @knutsen.dk> wrote in message
news:c7k9s4$p2b$1@news.cybercity.dk...
>
> Batman is a normal, as he has no supenatural powers. The same
> goes for that martial artist from the 3000 AD Legion of
> Superheroes or whatever it's called (I've only read about it in
> Danish translations, so I'm not sure of the original name of the
> team, but it's DC).

It is "The Legion of Superheroes" in English. And by the internal logic of
that comic, Val Armorr (Karate Kid) *must* have superpowers as the Legion
constitution states that members MUST have a unique super power. His "super
karate" is therefore, by definition, supernatural.


--
David Meadows
Heroes: www.heroes.force9.co.uk/scripts/
A comic book -- without the pictures
 >> Stay informed about: Best system for balance between superpowered and unpowered.. 

On 8 May 2004 17:59:44 GMT, Peter Meilinger <mellnger DeleteThis @bu.edu> wrote:

>Another thing I noticed long ago about GURPS is that
>someone with the Guns skill and access to even commercially
>available weapons and armor can easily be as powerful as
>most super-types. This is good for some campaign concepts,
>and very bad for others.

And that's why the default case in superheroic games in Hero is that
normal weapons are _not_ free; for a normal or low powered supers
game, the higher end ones (like shotguns) have as much or almost as
much combat power as many attack powers.

>
>> Otherwise I think it's
>>an oxymoron barring heavy GM screentime enforcement (and I think that
>>would require almost irrational levels of contrivance to work).
>
>Yeah. It works fine in comic books, because the writers can
>easily manage that kind of contrivance. In a game where the
>GM doesn't have complete control of all the characters, though,
>it can easily be a recipe for disaster.

And unless everyone is absolutely on board the idea, requires a
hideous amount of railroading.
 >> Stay informed about: Best system for balance between superpowered and unpowered.. 

On Sun, 09 May 2004 05:52:54 +0200, Peter Knutsen <peter RemoveThis @knutsen.dk>
wrote:

>> Depends how broadly you define "super powers". Most superhero games
>> have the capacity to create avowedly normal characters who are
>> balanced with superhuman ones, but only in the sense that Batman and
>
>Batman is a normal, as he has no supenatural powers. The same
>goes for that martial artist from the 3000 AD Legion of
>Superheroes or whatever it's called (I've only read about it in
>Danish translations, so I'm not sure of the original name of the
>team, but it's DC).

Then certainly, because you're willing to call impossible levels of
capability "normal".

>
>> many fictional martial artists are "normal". Otherwise I think it's
>> an oxymoron barring heavy GM screentime enforcement (and I think that
>> would require almost irrational levels of contrivance to work).
>
>Hero attempts to achieve it with the "Normal Characteristics
>Maxima" disad. Are there other superhero systems that strives
>for something similar?

But note that even NCM does not prevent a martial artist from having
enough martial damage classes to punch a hole in the side of a tank.
In the end, this is no more "normal" than a 50 Strength.

>
>>>Secondary question: Which superhero character creation system
>>>offers the widest selection of cool, non-supernatural abilities?
>>>The normals will need something to spend their points on, after
>>>all...
>>
>> Again, depends on what you mean by non-supernatural.
>
>Not in violation of the laws of physics.

How about biomechanics? Many things Batman does are essentially
impossible for the human body.
 >> Stay informed about: Best system for balance between superpowered and unpowered.. 

David Meadows wrote:

>
> It is "The Legion of Superheroes" in English. And by the internal logic of
> that comic, Val Armorr (Karate Kid) *must* have superpowers as the Legion
> constitution states that members MUST have a unique super power. His "super
> karate" is therefore, by definition, supernatural.

I'd phrase it more as "beyond normal human levels".
I always felt Val's martial skill was given a hand wave as
being "practically a super power" so they could let him in.
It's no more a standard "superpower" than Bullseye's targetting
ability, or to a different extent, Brainiac 5's "computer brain".
 >> Stay informed about: Best system for balance between superpowered and unpowered.. 

Wayne Shaw wrote:

> On Sun, 09 May 2004 05:52:54 +0200, Peter Knutsen <peter RemoveThis @knutsen.dk>
> wrote:
<snip>
>>>Again, depends on what you mean by non-supernatural.
>>
>>Not in violation of the laws of physics.
>
> How about biomechanics? Many things Batman does are essentially
> impossible for the human body.

Bats is a combo MArtist/Gadgeteer. Take away his toys and he's still
fairly kick-arse, and gets away with bending the laws of physics (and
yes, biomechanics) a fair amount. Without his toys, contacts and so on
he's /comparatively/ normal when you stack him up against the rest of
the Justice League frex.

I'd still back him in a fight against Lantern without his power ring
though :>

--
Corey Murtagh
The Electric Monk
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur!"
 >> Stay informed about: Best system for balance between superpowered and unpowered.. 

Sorcier wrote:

> David Meadows wrote:
>
>> It is "The Legion of Superheroes" in English. And by the internal
>> logic of
>> that comic, Val Armorr (Karate Kid) *must* have superpowers as the Legion
>> constitution states that members MUST have a unique super power. His
>> "super
>> karate" is therefore, by definition, supernatural.
>
> I'd phrase it more as "beyond normal human levels".
> I always felt Val's martial skill was given a hand wave as
> being "practically a super power" so they could let him in.
> It's no more a standard "superpower" than Bullseye's targetting
> ability, or to a different extent, Brainiac 5's "computer brain".

The ability to punch a hole through armour with your fist is quite
definitely a super power. Even assuming you could put enough power into
the hit to do that kind of damage to the target, how exactly do you stop
your fist from being turned into a bloody pulp on impact?

Similarly, Bullseye's targetting talent is far from 'natural'. He hits
what he aims at, even accounting for factors which a normal human isn't
even /capable/ of perceiving, with whatever object he has to hand.
Balance and aerodynamics don't matter a damn, so long as he can see the
target and throw the object that far. The only thing he /can't/ do is
predict the future to tell which way the target is going to dodge.

Brainiac I mostly agree with... except when compared to 'normal' for
humans. His processing ability far exceeds anything an unenhanced human
could do. When looked at as a representative of the 'mobile computer
AI' species however, he may be /exceptional/, but is not unnaturally so.

So just because a power doesn't /look/ spectactular, that doesn't mean
it's not a super power. And even if it /does/ look spectacular, that
doesn't mean it /is/ either :>

--
Corey Murtagh
The Electric Monk
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur!"
 >> Stay informed about: Best system for balance between superpowered and unpowered..