+1% spell crit chance or +spellpower?

Devast8or wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> I'm trying to find out when to choose +crit chance over +damage on my
> warlock.
>
> The +1% crit chance will make 1 in 100 shadowbolts do double damage, so
> what I'm looking for is the breakpoint where +X spellpower will make
> 100 shadowbolts combined do the same extra damage.
>
> I tried doing some calculations, but being a complete idiot when it
> comes to math I'm far from sure it's correct, and I can't even
> reproduce those calculations. At any rate, I arrived at ~15 spellpower.
> Does that sound about right, or am I way off base here?

A much easier way to think about it is this... Spread out over a long
time, +1% Crit is exactly the same as 1% extra total damage.

Of course that assumes you have a Ruin build, which makes Crits do 200%
damage. The default is actually 150% for all Casters btw. Ruin
"doubles" the 50% to make it an extra 100%. So if you aren't going for
a Ruin build that makes the decision easy for you.

Anyway, Rank 9 Shadow Bolt does about 480 damage. So 1% == about +5
Damage. But that's a little misleading because there are a lot of other
things like Talents that can boost the base damage. This includes all
your other gear too.

So, the main benefits of +% Crit are:

1) In theory Crit scales better with level, since it's a percentage.
But you're going to get better gear as you level anyway.

2) Certain build / gear combos are built around Crit. Like the Searing
Pain build if you have the Rank 8 gloves that make Searing Pain
essentially uninteruptable.

3) Crit isn't "weighted" based on casting time. So it's more beneficial
to your shortest Spells... again, like Searing Pain if you're a
Destruction Lock.

4) In PvP a big Crit on an openner like Soul Fire can be a 1 Hit Kill.

The main disadvantages of +% Crit are:

1) Warlocks have a bunch of spells, like DoT's that don't benefit from
Crit at all. I'm not even sure Nighfall or Death Coil are allowed to
Crit (?).

2) It can gets you sudden spikes in Threat / Aggro in dungeons.

3) It doesn't make sense with certain builds or if your gear isn't good
to begin with.

Bottom line: Most end-game Mages & Warlocks try to add +% Crit whenever
they can, because it's much harder to boost than +Spell Dmg. But if you
don't have either Ruin, or very good gear to start with, +Spell Dmg is
usually the better choice.
 >> Stay informed about: +1% spell crit chance or +spellpower? 

On 2006-10-03, Devast8or <deva1.DeleteThis@ofir.dk> wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> I'm trying to find out when to choose +crit chance over +damage on my
> warlock.
>
> The +1% crit chance will make 1 in 100 shadowbolts do double damage, so
> what I'm looking for is the breakpoint where +X spellpower will make
> 100 shadowbolts combined do the same extra damage.
>
> I tried doing some calculations, but being a complete idiot when it
> comes to math I'm far from sure it's correct, and I can't even
> reproduce those calculations. At any rate, I arrived at ~15 spellpower.
> Does that sound about right, or am I way off base here?

DAM = base damage of your shadowbolt rank


+1% chance => DAM * 0.99 + 2*DAM * 0.01
= 0.99 DAM + 0.02 DAM = 1.01 DAM

+SP Spellpower => (DAM + SP)


=> you search for

1.01*DAM * 100Bolts = (DAM + SP) * 100Bolts

<=> 1.01 * DAM = DAM + SP

you search SP:

SP = (1.01 * DAM) - DAM
= 0.01 * DAM


Meaning:
If your +Spellpower is 1/100 of your Base damage, that's your
break point.


It's slightly different, because above you see the difference between 0%
critchance to 1% critchance, at +0 Spellpower to +SP Spellpower.


Let's say you do a rough 15% crit and have +123 Spellpower "bevor"
your upgraded item:


here you have to think of the +123 base spellpower, +1% crit

+1% chance => ( (DAM+123) * 0.84) + (2*(DAM+123) * 0.16)
= 1.16 * (DAM+123)


here you have to think of 15% crit, +SP Spellpower

+SP Spellpower => ( (DAM+123+SP) * 0.85) + (2 * (DAM+123+SP) * 0.15)
= 1.15 * (DAM+123+SP)


=> you search for

1.16 * (DAM+123) = 1.15 * (DAM+123+SP)

<=> 1.16 * DAM + 142.68 = 1.15 * DAM + 141.45 + 1.15*SP

<=> 0.01*DAM + 1.23 = 1.15 * SP

<=> (0.01 * DAM + 1.23) / 1.15 = SP

<~> 0.0087 * DAM + 1.07 = SP


--
Marco Dieckhoff
 >> Stay informed about: +1% spell crit chance or +spellpower? 

"Devast8or" <deva1.TakeThisOut@ofir.dk> wrote in message
news:1159873842.122719.56310@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Hey all,
>
> I'm trying to find out when to choose +crit chance over +damage on my
> warlock.
>
> The +1% crit chance will make 1 in 100 shadowbolts do double damage, so
> what I'm looking for is the breakpoint where +X spellpower will make
> 100 shadowbolts combined do the same extra damage.
>
> I tried doing some calculations, but being a complete idiot when it
> comes to math I'm far from sure it's correct, and I can't even
> reproduce those calculations. At any rate, I arrived at ~15 spellpower.
> Does that sound about right, or am I way off base here?
>
> I know that in some situations like PVP the crit is invaluable, but for
> raiding where I stand there spamming SB I don't really see the big
> difference in doing that extra damage as a spike on shadowbolt versus
> spread out over a lot of them (except that a crit at the wrong time can
> get me killed, but it's usually not a very big threat. We're using KTM
> and we have some very good tanks).

I never played a lock so I dont know if any talents change this but..
+15 spell damage on a 3 second spell will result in 15*3/3.5=12.86 damage.
For 1% crit to result in 12.86 damage then your average shadowbolt
(non-crit) would have to be 1286.
So if you shadowbolt for less than 1286 then the +15 damage would be worth
more than the 1% crit. (for shadowbolts)
I'd have to know your average non crit bolt damage to tell you the break
even. Do you have recap?
 >> Stay informed about: +1% spell crit chance or +spellpower? 

Mel wrote:
> We have warlocks in our raid with that have chosen different paths;
> those that are heavy in the + crit gear and those that are heavy in the
> +damage gear (and then those that have both^^)
>
> The choices seems to go with a particular talent build, I'm not sure
> exactly what... and I don't know enough about Warlocks to help.
>
> What I do know is that there seems to be considerable variety in the
> different playing styles and talent builds of warlocks, and I suspect
> that your question will have different answers (which is best) depending
> on your build, the typical spells you use, their casting times and dot
> components.

Most of your warlocks there are very similarly geared, so I'd say that
any differences you notice are entirely playstyle related. Talents don't
really make a huge difference, except if you have Ruin and you crit 3
times in a row, perhaps you should slow down for a bit. Down ranking as
a warlock is nearly always useless, but sometimes I'll drop to SB4 for
just a few casts if I have to keep up damage.

My gear's about the level same as Damrok; I roll at around +600 damage
with 4% crit and 4% hit. Aggro can be a problem, although as I'm
Alliance-side "Blessing of Easy Mode" helps a lot. I'm also MD/Ruin and
usually have the imp out. Things like KTM help a lot if your tanks use it.

To the grandparent: Try installing the TheoryCraft mod, it gives a lot
of nice statistics (such as how much +dmg each crit% is "worth" on
average given your current gear). Some theorycrafters say there's no
real point stacking crit% until you have around +600 damage. Of course,
things do get really complicated as each shadowbolt crit directly
relates to extra DPS for your fellow warlocks, provided you have
improved shadow bolt (and what raiding warlock wouldn't. ).

David.
 >> Stay informed about: +1% spell crit chance or +spellpower? 

Marco Dieckhoff a écrit :

> On 2006-10-03, Babe Bridou <babebridou RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Marco Dieckhoff a écrit :
> >
> >> On 2006-10-03, Devast8or <deva1 RemoveThis @ofir.dk> wrote:
> >> > Hey all,
> >> >
> >> > I'm trying to find out when to choose +crit chance over +damage on my
> >> > warlock.
> >> >
> >> > The +1% crit chance will make 1 in 100 shadowbolts do double damage, so
> >> > what I'm looking for is the breakpoint where +X spellpower will make
> >> > 100 shadowbolts combined do the same extra damage.
> >> >
> >> > I tried doing some calculations, but being a complete idiot when it
> >> > comes to math I'm far from sure it's correct, and I can't even
> >> > reproduce those calculations. At any rate, I arrived at ~15 spellpower.
> >> > Does that sound about right, or am I way off base here?
> >>
> >> DAM = base damage of your shadowbolt rank
> >< ...
> >
> > Well, these numbers are all good and well, but in the end, +crit
> > doesn't help when life tapping & dotting... or does it?
>
> Well, that remark is good and well, but in the end, that was not
> the question of the OP... or was it?

yup yup, that was a new question
The OP is about spamming 100 shadowbolts, and well, as far as I know,
life tapping speed is concerned in that process of spamming 100
shadowbolts, eh? So my question is, what if you take into account the
lifetap speed when considering the dps upgrade with +crit% and +damage
?

(yay, more maths )
 >> Stay informed about: +1% spell crit chance or +spellpower? 

"gaf1234567890" <gaf1234567890.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:

> A much easier way to think about it is this... Spread out over a long
> time, +1% Crit is exactly the same as 1% extra total damage.
>
> Of course that assumes you have a Ruin build, which makes Crits do 200%
> damage. The default is actually 150% for all Casters btw. Ruin
> "doubles" the 50% to make it an extra 100%. So if you aren't going for
> a Ruin build that makes the decision easy for you.
>
> Anyway, Rank 9 Shadow Bolt does about 480 damage. So 1% == about +5
> Damage. But that's a little misleading because there are a lot of other
> things like Talents that can boost the base damage. This includes all
> your other gear too.
>
> So, the main benefits of +% Crit are:
>
> 1) In theory Crit scales better with level, since it's a percentage.
> But you're going to get better gear as you level anyway.

Small addition: This will change with the expansion. Relative values
like dodge% and crit% will be changed to ratings, which means that
an item with a +10 crit rating may mean 1% crit at level 50, and 0.5%
crit at level 70.

> 3) Crit isn't "weighted" based on casting time. So it's more beneficial
> to your shortest Spells... again, like Searing Pain if you're a
> Destruction Lock.

That's wrong. Crit% is "weighted" on casting time.
Example:
Spell1, takes 2 seconds to cast, 100 damage.
Spell2, takes 1 seconds to cast, 50 damage.

After 200 seconds:
Spell1: 99x 100 damage, 1x 200 damage
Spell2: 198x 50 damage, 2x 100 damage

Although the faster spell crits 2x as often, the damage
output of both spells is exactly the same.

Slow spells (attacks) crit slower, but higher. Given the same
DPS slow spells (attacks) profit as much from crits as fast
ones.

> 1) Warlocks have a bunch of spells, like DoT's that don't benefit from
> Crit at all. I'm not even sure Nighfall or Death Coil are allowed to
> Crit (?).

I'm not sure about this neither, I *think* I've seen my viper sting
crit once in a while. I'm not sure if DoTs can crit, but I'm not yet
convinced they can't

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (60) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Gwaith - Short beastmaster (60) on EN Scarshield L. [RPPvP]
Maethor - Best friend (60) on EN Scarshield L. [RPPvP]
Sian - Best friend (60) on EN Scarshield L. [RPPvP]
 >> Stay informed about: +1% spell crit chance or +spellpower? 

On 3 Oct 2006 04:10:42 -0700, "Devast8or" <deva1.DeleteThis@ofir.dk> wrote:

>Hey all,
>
>I'm trying to find out when to choose +crit chance over +damage on my
>warlock.
>
>The +1% crit chance will make 1 in 100 shadowbolts do double damage, so
>what I'm looking for is the breakpoint where +X spellpower will make
>100 shadowbolts combined do the same extra damage.
>
>I tried doing some calculations, but being a complete idiot when it
>comes to math I'm far from sure it's correct, and I can't even
>reproduce those calculations. At any rate, I arrived at ~15 spellpower.
>Does that sound about right, or am I way off base here?

Can't be done, at least not as cut and dried as that. Basically crit
chance becomes better as you get more +spelldamage (double damage on
682 to 738 damage is better than double on 482 to 538 damage).

It, of course, also depends on if you have the talent that makes crits
do 200% damage instead of 150% - and how much you use DoTs that can't
crit.


If we say that you have the talent for 200% on crit, then this is what
I can figure out:

Damage = (average + spelldamage*3/3.5) * (1 + crit%)


Now we say; damage(+1crit) = damage(+X spellpower) and see what comes
out:

(average + spelldamage * 3/3.5) * (1 + crit% + 0.01) =
(average + (spelldamage + X) * 3/3.5) * (1 + crit%)

<=> (multiply all the stuff out)

average * (1 + crit% + 0.01) +
spelldamage * 3/3.5 * (1 + crit% + 0.01)
=
average * (1 + crit%) +
spelldamage * 3/3.5 * (1 + crit%) +
X * 3/3.5 * (1 + crit%)

<=> (and again)

average * 1 + average * crit% + average * 0.01 +
spelldamage * 3/3.5 * 1 + spelldamage * 3/3.5 * crit% +
spelldamage * 3/3.5 * 0.01
=
average * 1 + average * crit% +
spelldamage * 3/3.5 * 1 + spelldamage * 3/3.5 * crit% +
X * 3/3.5 * (1 + crit%)

<=> (substract similar items on both sides - eg. "average * 1")

average * 0.01 + spelldamage * 3/3.5 * 0.01
=
X * 3/3.5 * (1 + crit%)

<=> (divide out the 3/3.5)

average * 0.01 / (3/3.5) +
spelldamage * 0.01
=
X * (1 + crit%)


Now, we can plug in some numbers - first Shadowbolt 10 (average
damage; (482+538)/2 = 510), 15% crit and 350 +damage:

510 * 0.01 / (3/3.5) + 350 * 0.01 = X * (1 + 0.15)
<=>
5.95 + 3.5 = X * 1.15
<=>
9.45 / 1.15 = X
<=>
8.22 = X


Then with Shadowbolt 10, 10% crit and 500 +damage:

510 * 0.01 / (3/3.5) + 500 * 0.01 = X * (1 + 0.10)
<=>
5.95 + 5 = X * 1.1
<=>
10.95 / 1.1 = X
<=>
9.95 = X

So, in the first case +1% crit was equal to 8.22 +damage while in the
second one it was equal to 9.95 +damage.


I hope that helps a bit (and that I didn't make any mistakes).

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
 >> Stay informed about: +1% spell crit chance or +spellpower? 

On Tue, 3 Oct 2006 15:28:26 +0200, "Christian Stauffer"
<wildcard666 RemoveThis @bluewin.ch> wrote:

>> 1) Warlocks have a bunch of spells, like DoT's that don't benefit from
>> Crit at all. I'm not even sure Nighfall or Death Coil are allowed to
>> Crit (?).
>
>I'm not sure about this neither, I *think* I've seen my viper sting
>crit once in a while. I'm not sure if DoTs can crit, but I'm not yet
>convinced they can't

DoTs generaly can't crit, and neither can channeled spells (apparently
mages Arcane Missiles is an exception to that rule, but generally they
can't).

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
 >> Stay informed about: +1% spell crit chance or +spellpower? 

On 2006-10-03, Babe Bridou <babebridou.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Marco Dieckhoff a écrit :
>
>> On 2006-10-03, Devast8or <deva1.TakeThisOut@ofir.dk> wrote:
>> > Hey all,
>> >
>> > I'm trying to find out when to choose +crit chance over +damage on my
>> > warlock.
>> >
>> > The +1% crit chance will make 1 in 100 shadowbolts do double damage, so
>> > what I'm looking for is the breakpoint where +X spellpower will make
>> > 100 shadowbolts combined do the same extra damage.
>> >
>> > I tried doing some calculations, but being a complete idiot when it
>> > comes to math I'm far from sure it's correct, and I can't even
>> > reproduce those calculations. At any rate, I arrived at ~15 spellpower.
>> > Does that sound about right, or am I way off base here?
>>
>> DAM = base damage of your shadowbolt rank
>< ...
>
> Well, these numbers are all good and well, but in the end, +crit
> doesn't help when life tapping & dotting... or does it?

Well, that remark is good and well, but in the end, that was not
the question of the OP... or was it?

--
Marco Dieckhoff
 >> Stay informed about: +1% spell crit chance or +spellpower? 

"gaf1234567890" <gaf1234567890 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> writes:
>1) Warlocks have a bunch of spells, like DoT's that don't benefit from
>Crit at all. I'm not even sure Nighfall or Death Coil are allowed to
>Crit (?).

Nightfall isn't a cast spell - it's an effect that gives you an instant
shadowbolt cast. That shadowbolt can crit as normal. This can get you in
trouble - if your shadowbolt crits, and then you immediately cast a
nightfall bolt and THAT crits, you'll be delivering 4000+ damage in less
than a second and a half. In PvP you just killed something. In PvE you have
grabbed aggro unless you've been careful.

>Bottom line: Most end-game Mages & Warlocks try to add +% Crit whenever
>they can, because it's much harder to boost than +Spell Dmg. But if you
>don't have either Ruin, or very good gear to start with, +Spell Dmg is
>usually the better choice.

Conventional wisdom is that more than +5% crit is wasted. My base crit rate
is already 16% or so with my gear - I don't see much point in raising it
further. +damage is king in my book. *
--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.
 >> Stay informed about: +1% spell crit chance or +spellpower? 

"Christian Stauffer" <wildcard666.RemoveThis@bluewin.ch> writes:
>I'm not sure about this neither, I *think* I've seen my viper sting
>crit once in a while. I'm not sure if DoTs can crit, but I'm not yet
>convinced they can't

DoTs in general don't crit. However, if a DoT has an initial damage spike
(immolate for instance), THAT can crit. *
--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.
 >> Stay informed about: +1% spell crit chance or +spellpower? 

We have warlocks in our raid with that have chosen different paths;
those that are heavy in the + crit gear and those that are heavy in the
+damage gear (and then those that have both^^)

The choices seems to go with a particular talent build, I'm not sure
exactly what... and I don't know enough about Warlocks to help.

What I do know is that there seems to be considerable variety in the
different playing styles and talent builds of warlocks, and I suspect
that your question will have different answers (which is best) depending
on your build, the typical spells you use, their casting times and dot
components.


I don't know if this will help, but you can check out our guild Warlocks
talents and equipment at CT profiles.
Damrok has the highest crit rate, but very very rarely aggros over a
tank; Ezhekiel on the other hand does so spectacularly form time to
time. Nazga has a build and equipment designed to maximise his hit
points (a pvp thing). The Warlocks all say that Vrak is "discreet" in
the sense that he does efficient damage without ever risking taking
aggro of a tank...

Zuglok : http://ctprofiles.net/9183
Ezhekiel : http://ctprofiles.net/14954
Natterfrost : http://ctprofiles.net/3912599
Damrok : http://ctprofiles.net/29246
Nazganadunar : http://ctprofiles.net/3926566
Onimicra : http://ctprofiles.net/3953826
Vrak : http://ctprofiles.net/592020
Khalein : http://www.ctprofiles.net/3900631






Devast8or a écrit :
> Hey all,
>
> I'm trying to find out when to choose +crit chance over +damage on my
> warlock.
>
> The +1% crit chance will make 1 in 100 shadowbolts do double damage, so
> what I'm looking for is the breakpoint where +X spellpower will make
> 100 shadowbolts combined do the same extra damage.
>
> I tried doing some calculations, but being a complete idiot when it
> comes to math I'm far from sure it's correct, and I can't even
> reproduce those calculations. At any rate, I arrived at ~15 spellpower.
> Does that sound about right, or am I way off base here?
>
> I know that in some situations like PVP the crit is invaluable, but for
> raiding where I stand there spamming SB I don't really see the big
> difference in doing that extra damage as a spike on shadowbolt versus
> spread out over a lot of them (except that a crit at the wrong time can
> get me killed, but it's usually not a very big threat. We're using KTM
> and we have some very good tanks).
>
> TIA for any input.
>
> Devast8or
>
 >> Stay informed about: +1% spell crit chance or +spellpower? 

On 2006-10-03 13:10:42 +0200, "Devast8or" <deva1.RemoveThis@ofir.dk> said:

> I'm trying to find out when to choose +crit chance over +damage on my
> warlock.
>
> The +1% crit chance will make 1 in 100 shadowbolts do double damage, so
> what I'm looking for is the breakpoint where +X spellpower will make
> 100 shadowbolts combined do the same extra damage.

It depends on how much +spell damage you already have. I will assume
you have both ruin and improved shadowbolt specced.

The amount of dps increase by a crit = (1 / (100 - Chance To Get
Resisted)) * (1 + 4 * 0.15) -> Note that this is simplified as critting
while shadow vulnerable will just reset the counter to 4 and other
shadow sources can consume the boost as well.

Grab your miss % from recap or anything. On my shadowbolt that is an
average of 10% resisted during raiding, giving roughly 1.75 % damage
increase from +1% crit chance.

+spell damage is added before any modifiers, so we can use the base
damage of the shadow bolt spell for calculating our stuff.

Shadow Bolt Rank X does 482 to 538 damage, averaging 510 damage, so the
+spell damage needed to be better than 1% crit chance is (510 + current
+spelldmg) * 0.0175. This is +9 spell damage if you have 0 damage gear.

It is obvious that the effect of +spell crit increases as your
+spelldamage goes up.

It might be interesting to put the iLevel next to this. The good folks
at nurfed figured out a way to compare item value with each other.
http://brutsoft.com/nurfed-dkp.doc contains the full explanation of how
they come up with their 'value' for a piece of gear.

For warlocks, +1% crit chance = 0.4969, +1 spell damage = 0.04596,
meaning that in game terms, a piece of kit with +11 damage has roughly
the same iLevel as that piece with +1% crit chance, which makes sense
due to the stuff we just figured out

Feel free to point out any flaws in my deductions here!
--
Nerghal - Undead Warlock L60 - Bloodscalp EU
Chasey - Undead Priest L46 - Bloodscalp EU

-:- http://www.dagon-roots.com/ -:-
- Recruitment Status: Priest & Druid -
 >> Stay informed about: +1% spell crit chance or +spellpower?