rogue is the most difficult character to level....

On Oct 24, 5:05 pm, pv+use...@pobox.com (PV) wrote:
> Majestick <xuldi....RemoveThis@gmail.com> writes:
> >well if spending half your time eating or bandaging sounds fun, then
> >yeah its an easy class. I personally think its all about the persons
> >play style.
>
> If you spend half your time eating or bandaging, you're not playing a rogue
> very well. *
> --
> * PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
> like corkscrews.

ah yes, I expected the taunts and naysaying from the elitists, thanks
for not letting me down. Since I was commenting on lvl 1-20, I stand
by my opinion. Having laughable armor and life with a normal leveled
toon makes melee precarious at best. I state the term "normal" because
my rouge is not the typical twink rogue I have seen the majority of
blues on and 2 flaming weapons, all before level 20. All the gear and
gold she has is hers, she earned it all as opposed to inheriting it
from my main. While I agree at the amazing explosiveness of rogues,
they remind me of a melee version of mage. Lots of DPS packaged in a
"glass cannon". (Still speaking about lvl 1-20) Most of the time you
can get away with not having to refill on life after killing a mob,
but its usually mandatory after killing two.
 >> Stay informed about: rogue is the most difficult character to level.... 

On 24 Oct, 17:52, Yoink <postmas....TakeThisOut@magiclemurs.com> wrote:
> steve.kaye <nos....TakeThisOut@giddy-kippers.co.uk> wrote:
> > The best thing about levelling a feral druid is that there is no
> > stopping to get health or mana back. You use energy or rage to kill
> > and when you are hurt you use your mana to pop a heal and carry on
> > straight away. By the time you need to heal again your mana is full.
> > It takes a really tough fight to make you stop to eat/drink/bandage
> > (in fact, I very rarely bandage, don't even carry food and only look
> > to replace my water when I get less than 10 left)
>
> > I reckon that I could get a feral druid to 70 faster than any other
> > class.
>
> Again, I didn't have a 60 paladin when the expansion hit, but I did
> my rogue and hunter faster than the druid. Hunters (BM) are the fastest
> to 60-70, no question.
>
> > It has the rogue's advantage of stealthing to objectives to
> > solo quests other classes can't. (with vanish there will be things
> > that a rogue can do that a druid can't but with healing there will be
> > things that a druid can do that a rogue can't)
>
> I'm not 100% sure I agree. I think a rogue's DPS doesn't make up for
> the druid's healing. The advantage a rogue has is he can SURVIVE any
> fight he wants, even if he doesn't win. A druid has to play smarter
> to win and doesn't have Vanish as a reset button.

An example where a rogue would be able to complete a quest that a
druid couldn't (without dieing) would be one where you can stealth to
the guy to kill but that guy has a few friends that you couldn't solo
all at once. The rogue pops out with evasion and whatever other
cooldowns he has and then finishes with a vanish as soon as the job is
done. If the targets are humanoid then that's an added bonus. The
druid might not be able to solo all of the targets and has no get out
strategy when the main target is down. A druid doesn't have the
cooldowns to burn to up is burst DPS so might even struggle to get the
main target at all if it is too high a level for him. He also has no
CC that would enable him to still start from stealth.

A similar example where a druid would be able to do it where a rogue
wouldn't would be if you can get the end guy on his own but he's an
elite that's too high for the rogue. I think that a druid in bear
form popping heals could take a higher level elite than a similar
level/geared rogue could.

steve.kaye
 >> Stay informed about: rogue is the most difficult character to level.... 

On 25 oct, 14:28, Majestick <xuldi... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 24, 5:05 pm, pv+use...@pobox.com (PV) wrote:
>
> > Majestick <xuldi... RemoveThis @gmail.com> writes:
> > >well if spending half your time eating or bandaging sounds fun, then
> > >yeah its an easy class. I personally think its all about the persons
> > >play style.
>
> > If you spend half your time eating or bandaging, you're not playing a rogue
> > very well. *
> > --
> > * PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
> > like corkscrews.
>
> ah yes, I expected the taunts and naysaying from the elitists, thanks
> for not letting me down. Since I was commenting on lvl 1-20, I stand
> by my opinion. Having laughable armor and life with a normal leveled
> toon makes melee precarious at best. I state the term "normal" because
> my rouge is not the typical twink rogue I have seen the majority of
> blues on and 2 flaming weapons, all before level 20. All the gear and
> gold she has is hers, she earned it all as opposed to inheriting it
> from my main. While I agree at the amazing explosiveness of rogues,
> they remind me of a melee version of mage. Lots of DPS packaged in a
> "glass cannon". (Still speaking about lvl 1-20) Most of the time you
> can get away with not having to refill on life after killing a mob,
> but its usually mandatory after killing two.

That's where having add-ons help. People saying that rogues are fast
or slow actually have no idea what "fast" or "slow" are for others

In my opinion the damage rogues and shamans deal is rather low during
the levelling phase, but they always have options open to increase
their speed. When they go fast, they have a lot of downtime, and when
they go slow, they have no downtime.

It's not the case for mages who have downtime "per pull", priests
whose downtime decrease when they kill faster, or warlocks, hunters,
paladins and druids who have downtime whenever they feel like having a
break.

The last class, warrior, is special: they can have no downtime at very
high speed, no downtime at very slow speed, or high downtime at medium
speed.
 >> Stay informed about: rogue is the most difficult character to level.... 

On Oct 26, 4:42 pm, "Mark Rimer" <winterm... RemoveThis @dishmailnot.net> wrote:
> "steve.kaye" <nos... RemoveThis @giddy-kippers.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:1193316930.882528.66010@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> > A similar example where a druid would be able to do it where a rogue
> > wouldn't would be if you can get the end guy on his own but he's an
> > elite that's too high for the rogue. I think that a druid in bear
> > form popping heals could take a higher level elite than a similar
> > level/geared rogue could.
>
> Yeah...I dunno what I'm doing "wrong," but an elite at anywhere
> near my level just eats me alive. Evasion only lasts so long, and
> after that I gotta hope that either blind or Vanish is up. Quite a
> few "clear the trash, summon the elite" quests are impossible for
> me to solo because I just can't take down the elite fast enough
> even with poisons or blind/bandage.

If that elite is stunnable you gotta work your resources. If not then
its more understandable. Between gouge, kidney shot, blind and evasion
surely that gives you enough time?
 >> Stay informed about: rogue is the most difficult character to level.... 

"steve.kaye" <nospam DeleteThis @giddy-kippers.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1193316930.882528.66010@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> A similar example where a druid would be able to do it where a rogue
> wouldn't would be if you can get the end guy on his own but he's an
> elite that's too high for the rogue. I think that a druid in bear
> form popping heals could take a higher level elite than a similar
> level/geared rogue could.

Yeah...I dunno what I'm doing "wrong," but an elite at anywhere
near my level just eats me alive. Evasion only lasts so long, and
after that I gotta hope that either blind or Vanish is up. Quite a
few "clear the trash, summon the elite" quests are impossible for
me to solo because I just can't take down the elite fast enough
even with poisons or blind/bandage.
 >> Stay informed about: rogue is the most difficult character to level.... 

"Dan" <no.spam.here.invalid> wrote in message
news:kdduh3lcfhptjfq58u5n90er58qk03fncs@4ax.com...
> Blinding power isn't a problem at L70 - 10 minutes sneaking around
> pickpocketting the orcs etc in the bone waste south of Shattrath
> will net you 30-40 blinding powder from junkboxes and that's plenty
> for a day's PvP. I won't complain about them removing the reagent
> for Blind in 2.3, but it hasn't been a big issue for me. It's more
> of an issue below L40 since you only start getting it in junkboxes
> on L42+ mobs.

I'll just be happy to not have to waste space to carry blinding
powder in my bags. Getting it hasn't been a problem since the
mobs started carrying it in junkboxes before TBC came out...
 >> Stay informed about: rogue is the most difficult character to level.... 

On 27 oct, 01:28, Catriona R <catrionarNOS....DeleteThis@totalise.co.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 23:02:57 -0000, Aboo <jhemph....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> >This is the only problem I had while leveling my rogue as well. Hell,
> >at 70 I couldn't solo elites either... until I went combat maces.
> >NOW I stun enough to do it, sometimes . With Hemo, if it was a
> >caster I could do it. But I can't image trying to solo elites with a
> >dagger rogue. All the time getting behind the enemy leaves you almost
> >no time to bandage. And if you can't heal, your going to die. They
> >simply hit to hard and have to many hit points to survive them. Other
> >classes can "solo" them because of pets or healing, period.
>
> Yup, I always had trouble with elites too, some are soloable while
> levelling, with evasion+adrenaline rush+thistle tea+health pot, but a lot
> aren't, like pretty much all the ones in outland. Or at least not with the
> gear I had while levelling, maybe a better-geared rogue can acheive more!
> Rogues are great for most things but elites just hit too hard and there's
> no pet, no healing, no fear, no kiting... you just have to take the hits

A couple days ago I soloed Torgos (65 elite and his adds, in terrokar)
at 66, hemo/adrenaline rush, with maybe two blues from ramparts and
green AH weapons. All it took was AR/evasion + preparation + AR/
evasion, throw in a cloak of shadow and a blade flurry in the middle.
No trouble at all.
 >> Stay informed about: rogue is the most difficult character to level.... 

On Oct 26, 4:56 pm, Hornet <jforbe....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 26, 4:42 pm, "Mark Rimer" <winterm....DeleteThis@dishmailnot.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "steve.kaye" <nos....DeleteThis@giddy-kippers.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> >news:1193316930.882528.66010@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > A similar example where a druid would be able to do it where a rogue
> > > wouldn't would be if you can get the end guy on his own but he's an
> > > elite that's too high for the rogue. I think that a druid in bear
> > > form popping heals could take a higher level elite than a similar
> > > level/geared rogue could.
>
> > Yeah...I dunno what I'm doing "wrong," but an elite at anywhere
> > near my level just eats me alive. Evasion only lasts so long, and
> > after that I gotta hope that either blind or Vanish is up. Quite a
> > few "clear the trash, summon the elite" quests are impossible for
> > me to solo because I just can't take down the elite fast enough
> > even with poisons or blind/bandage.
>
> If that elite is stunnable you gotta work your resources. If not then
> its more understandable. Between gouge, kidney shot, blind and evasion
> surely that gives you enough time?


This is the only problem I had while leveling my rogue as well. Hell,
at 70 I couldn't solo elites either... until I went combat maces.
NOW I stun enough to do it, sometimes . With Hemo, if it was a
caster I could do it. But I can't image trying to solo elites with a
dagger rogue. All the time getting behind the enemy leaves you almost
no time to bandage. And if you can't heal, your going to die. They
simply hit to hard and have to many hit points to survive them. Other
classes can "solo" them because of pets or healing, period.
 >> Stay informed about: rogue is the most difficult character to level.... 

On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 23:02:57 -0000, Aboo <jhemphill.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:

>This is the only problem I had while leveling my rogue as well. Hell,
>at 70 I couldn't solo elites either... until I went combat maces.
>NOW I stun enough to do it, sometimes . With Hemo, if it was a
>caster I could do it. But I can't image trying to solo elites with a
>dagger rogue. All the time getting behind the enemy leaves you almost
>no time to bandage. And if you can't heal, your going to die. They
>simply hit to hard and have to many hit points to survive them. Other
>classes can "solo" them because of pets or healing, period.

Yup, I always had trouble with elites too, some are soloable while
levelling, with evasion+adrenaline rush+thistle tea+health pot, but a lot
aren't, like pretty much all the ones in outland. Or at least not with the
gear I had while levelling, maybe a better-geared rogue can acheive more!
Rogues are great for most things but elites just hit too hard and there's
no pet, no healing, no fear, no kiting... you just have to take the hits
:-/
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 70)
Naomh - Draenei Priest (lvl 70)
Rosad - Human Warlock (lvl 70)
Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 70)
Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 62)
Sgoildubh - Human Mage (lvl 53)
Beag - Dwarf Paladin (lvl 53)
Cathach - Gnome Warrior (lvl 30)
Eilnich - Blood Elf Warlock (lvl 26)
 >> Stay informed about: rogue is the most difficult character to level.... 

"Mark Rimer" <wintermute.RemoveThis@dishmailnot.net> wrote:

>"Dan" <no.spam.here.invalid> wrote in message
>news:kdduh3lcfhptjfq58u5n90er58qk03fncs@4ax.com...
>> I won't complain about them removing the reagent
>> for Blind in 2.3, but it hasn't been a big issue for me. It's more
>> of an issue below L40 since you only start getting it in junkboxes
>> on L42+ mobs.
>
>I'll just be happy to not have to waste space to carry blinding
>powder in my bags. Getting it hasn't been a problem since the
>mobs started carrying it in junkboxes before TBC came out...

That's a good point, it'll free up 3 or 4 slots in my bags!

Dan
 >> Stay informed about: rogue is the most difficult character to level.... 

"Mark Rimer" <wintermute.DeleteThis@dishmailnot.net> wrote:

>"steve.kaye" <nospam.DeleteThis@giddy-kippers.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:1193316930.882528.66010@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>> A similar example where a druid would be able to do it where a rogue
>> wouldn't would be if you can get the end guy on his own but he's an
>> elite that's too high for the rogue. I think that a druid in bear
>> form popping heals could take a higher level elite than a similar
>> level/geared rogue could.
>Yeah...I dunno what I'm doing "wrong," but an elite at anywhere
>near my level just eats me alive. Evasion only lasts so long, and
>after that I gotta hope that either blind or Vanish is up. Quite a
>few "clear the trash, summon the elite" quests are impossible for
>me to solo because I just can't take down the elite fast enough
>even with poisons or blind/bandage.

You need different tactics for an elite really - you have to fight
much more defensively and wear him down rather than going to a fast
burst kill. Some tips:

Open with cheap shot and follow it with kidney shot once you have 5
combo points. That gives you nearly 10 seconds without taking any
damage. Then hit evasion - hopefully you'll then take little damage
for the next 15 seconds. In the meantime, hit blade flurry if you
have it, and adrenalin rush/cold blood if you have it, and do as
much damage as you can before evasion wears off - slice'n'dice also
helps and if he has tough armour, rupture will probably do more
damage than eviscerate. Use 5-point kidney shots whenever you can to
keep him from hitting you. When your health starts to get low, blind
him and bandage (use the best bandage possible, obviously.) If you
are quick, just before the blind wears off you can vanish and
immediately cheap-shot him, then follow up with kidney shot again to
keep him busy. If you have preparation, hit it - it helps a lot,
resetting your cooldowns and letting you fire evasion again, and
adrenalin rush/cold blood again. Keep stunning him whenever you can.
He should be pretty low health by this point, you might need to
quaff a health potion before he dies.

Pick appropriate poisons. If he's a caster, mind numbing poison. If
he heals himself, wounding poison (but an elite that heals himself
is going to be *very* hard anyway).

Another method I've used with some success is rupture kiting.
Basically, you need crippling poison on both weapons and keep
running away - in circles, obviously, so he doesn't reset. Burst a
few hits from full energy, land a rupture, run away while it ticks
down and your energy recharges. It takes a while, but can be
surprisingly effective.

Dan
 >> Stay informed about: rogue is the most difficult character to level.... 

"Dan" <no.spam.here.invalid> wrote in message
news:hld6i316n6ami0jv74a0srg3bol8kjv95r@4ax.com...
> You need different tactics for an elite really - you have to fight
> much more defensively and wear him down rather than going to a fast
> burst kill. Some tips:

Probably my problem. I think of _nothing_ defensive when I'm
playing my rogue...it's all about the offense, baby!!!

> Open with cheap shot and follow it with kidney shot once you have 5
> combo points. That gives you nearly 10 seconds without taking any
> damage. Then hit evasion - hopefully you'll then take little damage
> for the next 15 seconds. In the meantime, hit blade flurry if you
> have it, and adrenalin rush/cold blood if you have it, and do as
> much damage as you can before evasion wears off - slice'n'dice also
> helps and if he has tough armour, rupture will probably do more
> damage than eviscerate. Use 5-point kidney shots whenever you can to
> keep him from hitting you. When your health starts to get low, blind
> him and bandage (use the best bandage possible, obviously.) If you
> are quick, just before the blind wears off you can vanish and
> immediately cheap-shot him, then follow up with kidney shot again to
> keep him busy. If you have preparation, hit it - it helps a lot,
> resetting your cooldowns and letting you fire evasion again, and
> adrenalin rush/cold blood again. Keep stunning him whenever you can.
> He should be pretty low health by this point, you might need to
> quaff a health potion before he dies.

Great tips, I just have to remember them. Basically, if I have to
vanish away from a mob it's for good...I use the vanish to escape
the elite no matter how much life he has left. I've never really thought
about using Vanish defensively (aside from dungeons when I mess up
and pull aggro with a couple of backstabs)...again, if I _have_ to
Vanish I just quit and look for a way to sneak out. Also, I HATE
having to use a healing potion. I have like 20 on my person but only
use 'em when I'm taking on a group of 3 mobs or more trying to
clear out a camp and get a "rotation" going.

> Pick appropriate poisons. If he's a caster, mind numbing poison. If
> he heals himself, wounding poison (but an elite that heals himself
> is going to be *very* hard anyway).

Yeah, I've actually had MUCH better luck with caster elites because
I can use my cooldown stuns (kick/gouge/kidney shot) to keep him
from casting on me. A caster in full melee mode equals one dead
caster elite .

> Another method I've used with some success is rupture kiting.
> Basically, you need crippling poison on both weapons and keep
> running away - in circles, obviously, so he doesn't reset. Burst a
> few hits from full energy, land a rupture, run away while it ticks
> down and your energy recharges. It takes a while, but can be
> surprisingly effective.

That sounds too much like PvP fighting for me, and I just don't
have the latency for it with my satellite connection. I can stand
and whale at a mob for a while, but any movement during a fight
besides gouge+backstab means I'm going to spend several seconds
whiffing with my daggers as the mob repositions itself and my
computer/Blizzard's computer don't match up :-\
 >> Stay informed about: rogue is the most difficult character to level.... 

On Oct 29, 6:16 pm, Babe Bridou <babebri....TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 29 oct, 16:31, Smid <smids....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I got the impression, backed up from another rogue who had been 60 for
> > a few years, that rogues were nerfed heavily back around December last
> > year. I was levelling one at the time, and all of a sudden all the
> > mobs were much harder. It came around the talent tree rebuild...
>
> > Warlocks are reported to be easy now, by the sounds of things that has
> > changed then.... Mines hasn't hit 10 yet...
>
> It wasn't so much the talent trees as the nasty debuffs, bleed
> effects, poisons, diseases and other "spikes" (damage dealt to melee
> attackers, high damage instant spells, etc) that outland mobs were
> given. I think.

While it seemed as if 3/4s of the mobs in Outlands were anti rogue
(can't be sapped, no poisons, 2 minute dot poisons), this nerf was
noticed around level 54 all the way to 60.

I was grinding along, killing equal to +2 mobs ok. Patch. Got owned by
equal level mobs. Realised talent points reset, attempted to reproduce
the same build again (hybrid), could kill equal level mobs, just,
might might have to pop evasion to do it...

I didn't stun, this was pure instant poisoned Ambush, SSx5, evis...

I stalled again at 62 again, then I went mutilate / stuns and enjoyed
the character again...

Smid
 >> Stay informed about: rogue is the most difficult character to level....