putting the "R" in an RTS

>> Bungy, any thoughts on game design and/or implementation?

> We have no code to script dynamic actions in a scenario. Would be
> nice to have.

Making some built-in training sessions is a great idea,
except to maintain such things could take quite some
effort. My "Terminator" scripts are built totally
custom, and not currently compatible with fairland.
I start with basically a "des * ." and everything wiped,
then put sectors where I want them. Then resources.
Then mils/civs. Then commodities. Then des where
the !/*/h are. Then efficiencies. Then avail. Then build
those l/p/s. Then repeat. Scripts work great, but they are
very specific and custom, not easily modifyable for different
scenarios or setups.

I have an example on my webpage for building the PZ4 practice
blitzes, see:
http://www.angelfire.com/empire2/bungholio/testblitzsetup.zip

Furthermore, learning to attack a non-active opponent is
not a true tool for learning how to engage in war. We'd
need at least a very basic Bot to run Terminator so that
you at least get attacked back and kicked off of weakly
held positions (or to possibly be a victim yourself! and
thus have to keep something in reserve.)

But for the basics of training, people complain about how
they think falling behind in tech is not fair. Yet, this
is part of the rites of passage in the game. I, among others
have made quite some efforts for how to get this basicness
accomplished (do a RGE search for "clowns harbor" or see my
training zoo TZ1 excerpts at:
http://www.angelfire.com/empire2/bungholio/TrainingZoo1.html
the zipped maps/anno's file near the bottom of the webpage has
a lot of Gems in there)
I'll run another TZ2 game sometime again. It takes a lot more
effort than you'd think to look over and analyze a dozen coun-
tries and give feedback/advice for all of them!

-BUNGY
 >> Stay informed about: putting the "R" in an RTS 

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On Oct 24, 3:42 pm, "Chtom" <ch....RemoveThis@nonono.com> wrote:
> > (since we are into long title sigs. *Waves at Overlord*)
> > 1/3 Rohan (LOTR II)
> > 1/4 Niflehm (Ice World V)
> > 1/4 Enron ( 2K4)
> > 1/4 Austria (EE9)
> > 1/2 UTOPIA (retro)
> > 1/1 Sorosuub (sw empire)
>
> Thanks for remembering that to me !!
> => As the game is long and time consuming (in a sense of intensity, I'm not
> talking about the time sink WoW could be) and the players want to win it so
> badly that they team together to play.
> Now the n00b doesn't face experienced players but teams of experienced
> players.
>
> Co-ruling is bad, co-ruling is evil.
>
>
> Chtom.

I have to politely disagree (well as politely as an empire player
can).
co-ruling isn't bad or evil. It's a different style of play with its
own set
of distinct challenges. Anyone who has co-ruled with a few different
players will tell you, it is NOT the key to success in empire.
Often a co-rule is less than the sum of its parts. Now some of the
more successful co-rules may make it look like it is the ultimate
tactic in empire. But no one remembers the co-ruled countries that
don't succeed.

There have been many games which where played 1 player per country.
If there is a big demand for such a game, someone will host one.


Plundaria
 >> Stay informed about: putting the "R" in an RTS 

On Oct 24, 8:00 pm, "Bungholio" <empire_bungholioNOS....TakeThisOut@verizon.net>
wrote:
> > A 6 year child can play WoW. Tell me when he would be able to play Empire.
>
> So what? An 88 year old can plan WoW too. To put it in a PZ7 pespective, 1
> billion people drink Bud Wiser beer too, does that mean it's a better beer than,
> say Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, Guinness, or Dead Rogue Guy Lager? Empire is just
> more "selective".


Yes, it does actually. In terms of it bringing enjoyment to a wider
audience and being a part of out culture beyond the game itself Bud is
the clear leader. I agree Sierra Nevada is better beer (my favorite
mass marked upscale brew is Blue Moon thou) but how many Superbowl
commercials have either of those sponsored? Similarly, where's the
South Park "Make Love not Empire" episode?

Besides, Undead Rogue Lager is clearly a beer for WoW playing, not
Empire.

Seriously though. There's playing WoW and there's playing WoW. Sure a
6 year old can drive his 'toon around the start zone and if he can
read maybe even do a few quests. But ask any veteran WOW player and
they'll tell you the game starts at 70. I doubt there's to many 6 year
olds doing 40-man raids. But if a kid wants to spend his time (and
daddy's money) running around Durator killing hogs, that's fine. Its a
big enough game to let him do that. There's nothing for such a player
in Empire.

Yes empire has a higher bar to entry. For example, you have know what
a server is before you can even start. That to me is a problem with
Empire. On the plus side, at least there's no Barrens Chat.

Could it be that some of you oldtimers LIKE the fact that the crusty
UI gives you and advantage over the neophyte? I hear it whenever
WinACE comes up in the annos. Someone is bound to say "real men use
the text client". I'm not accusing anyone, but could it be that
mastery of those 100 commands make you feel better than the fodders?

Bob M
 >> Stay informed about: putting the "R" in an RTS 

"Bungholio" <empire_bungholioNOSAPM.DeleteThis@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:rHRTi.3098$Gq2.586@trnddc01...
>
> Micro-Updates - not an answer, unless you like catching the
> plague in RL, losing your job/spouse/mistress/gf/house/etc
> because you want to be on every update to micro-tweak.
>
> And to make a game to encourage players "not to play"?
> then what's the point of it being fun if I'm rewarded for 'not' doing it?
>

Just curious, but has anybody considered melding micro-updates/demand
updates/regular updates? I.e., sectors/units/etc. accumulate etu's
individually
which correspond to new mobility/production/etc., but they have no effect
until either the player logs on and orders them to execute or the regular
update time occurs and all accumulated etu's are executed? You don't
have to be 'on' for every micro-update, and some of the danger of missing
an regular update goes away because sectors taken immediately before
an update won't accumulate significant etu/mobility to fight che/attack the
next sector/re-des to fort or harbor/etc., for a while. Feel free to point
out the obvious or not-so-obvious problems like "Well, I can abuse
that by just doing x-y-z, blah-blah-blah". (This, of course, leaves out
the main problem of "who's going to put in the time to code that so it
can even be tested?")
 >> Stay informed about: putting the "R" in an RTS 

> Oh brother! I don't know where to begin to address such conceit.
>
> I think you're delusional.
>
>
> Ain't gonna happen. More proof of your delusion if you think it will.
>
> Jump all over me if you like, but it seems to me what you've really got
> is a small clique of players who've mastered the arcane intricacies of
> an obscure game and use this as an excuse to convince themselves they're
> an elite. But as you showed above the fear is there just below the surface,
> isn't it,
> that maybe you're not really elite?
>

Dude, lighten up. It's a game. See:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HmgLOKRl5J0

-Doug of Bungholio
 >> Stay informed about: putting the "R" in an RTS 

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"Bungholio" <empire_bungholioNOSAPM.RemoveThis@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:KY%Ti.11613$_64.1351@trnddc02...
> > Oh brother! I don't know where to begin to address such conceit.
> >
> > I think you're delusional.
> >
> >
> > Ain't gonna happen. More proof of your delusion if you think it will.
> >
> > Jump all over me if you like, but it seems to me what you've really got
> > is a small clique of players who've mastered the arcane intricacies of
> > an obscure game and use this as an excuse to convince themselves they're
> > an elite. But as you showed above the fear is there just below the
surface,
> > isn't it,
> > that maybe you're not really elite?
> >
>
> Dude, lighten up. It's a game. See:
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=HmgLOKRl5J0
>
> -Doug of Bungholio
>
>

Seems to me you're the one taking it too seriously, Mr. Elite Gamer.
 >> Stay informed about: putting the "R" in an RTS 

<bobm123.RemoveThis@gmail.com> hit the nail on the head when he wrote in message
news:1193322528.080486.201880@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
> Could it be that some of you oldtimers LIKE the fact that the crusty
> UI gives you and advantage over the neophyte?

No, after all, they're elite! 8-}

> I hear it whenever
> WinACE comes up in the annos. Someone is bound to say "real men use
> the text client". I'm not accusing anyone, but could it be that
> mastery of those 100 commands make you feel better than the fodders?

To borrow a line from Shrek, "Do you think they're compensating for
something?"

>
> Bob M
>
 >> Stay informed about: putting the "R" in an RTS 

"Markus Armbruster" <armbru.DeleteThis@pond.sub.org> wrote in message
news:87640vhvtq.fsf@pike.pond.sub.org...
> "Gerry Murphy" <gerrymurphy.DeleteThis@comcast.net> writes:
>
> > Just a comment on the overall tenor of this thread.
> >
> > I find it interesting that despite the fact that several folks besides
> > myself
> > have implied or flat out asserted that the updates are a major problem
with
> > the game
> > quite a number of people don't seem to want to listen. Proving once
again
> > that
> > denial ain't just a river in Egypt.
>
> We must be reading different newsgroups.

Or at least one of us has a problem with comprehension.

> In the one I read, there
> was, among other things, a debate about how bad of a problem updates
> are, what could be done to get rid of them, and how bad the problems
> created by that would be.
>
> > I remember when updates were added to the game and I predicted problems
at
> > that
> > time but was ignored.
> >
> > More than one person here has told the same tale as myself, we used to
enjoy
> > the
> > game but it's evolved in ways that make it less compelling and we've
moved
> > on to
> > other things. I came back to have a look after ten years or so and it's
> > even
> > worse than I remember.
>
> I don't know ancient Empire, so I can't really compare.
>
> Retro (2004) was an attempt to recreate ancient Empire with modern
> software. It was... different. In an educational way. Frustrating
> at times. Nice nukefest, though.
>
> > I'd really like to meet the dolts who thought
land
> > units were
> > a good idea.
>
> I've maintained for some time that land units have excessive
> penetration depth in the stock game. 4.3.6 (2006) slowed them down a
> bit on highways and a fair bit in newly taken land. We additionally
> tweaked their speed in Hvy Metal (2006). More experiments are needed.
> And feedback from players!
>
> Euro 9 (2005) also had slow land units. Paratroopers ruled.
>
> Retro (2004) had no land units. Paratroopers ruled.
>
> > Some ideas that have been tossed out, such as doing a better job of
getting
> > the word
> > out to new players, are so delusional as to be risible.
> >
> > Folks, the problem is the game itself. The problem is not WinACE, which
I
> > liked after
> > getting used to it, nor any other client. The problems can't be solved
by
> > dismissing them
> > with non-arguments that this or that is "easily configurable".
> >
> > 'nuff said.
>
> There is no single problem, and there is no silver bullet.
>
> I maintain that the relative obscurity of Empire is a problem. Feel
> free to laugh all you want.
>
> I concede that updates are a problem. I just believe that the
> proposed cures could be worse than the disease, and I already wrote
> why. They should be tried all the same.
>
> When I point out that X is configurable, I do not intend to dismiss
> idea X, I'm pointing out how easily it could be tried in a game. We
> can debate X until hell freezes over, and we still won't know whether
> it's any good, not without trying it in a couple of games. The
> configuration that comes with the server is *not* the place to try
> ideas! Experimental games are. Only after ideas proved their worth
> there, we can make them default.
>
> Talk's cheap; show me the code. Or in this case, show me the game.

Talk certainly is cheap. But I didn't create this mess so I feel no onus to
fix it, certainly not while so many ( not necessarily you ) refuse to
listen.
 >> Stay informed about: putting the "R" in an RTS 

> Regarding the concept of "I missed a critical update
> and now my country is hosed", well that's an unfortunate
> matter of the fact due to the nature of the game.
> Empire is a wargame. Things happen, and they happen
> sequentially, and they build on what's happened.

The fact that you need weeks or months to setup the country that could be
destroyed in hours is totally unfun.

W.
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 >> Stay informed about: putting the "R" in an RTS 

Hi Geof,

(...)
> I screamed about complexity for years to no avail. I ran Retro Empire way
> back
> when, which got pretty good reviews. Substantially reduced command set
> from
> current model, simulating older Empire. Quite playable, and people seemed
> to have
> a lot of fun. That is the goal, mind you...having fun.

I also tried something in the same spirit but the sheer amount of commands
that need to be mastered to be able to attack an island is just ridiculous
for a newbie.
Monster games like WiF are Playskool toys compared to Empire.

> This column from that page is quite interesting. The problems discussed
> here,
> now, are really ten+ years old. This is a long read, but worth it.
> http://web.mit.edu/madpit/www/empire/break/jan97/

It's sad that 10 years later we still haven't been able to progress.

Chtom.
 >> Stay informed about: putting the "R" in an RTS