putting the "R" in an RTS

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 >> Stay informed about: putting the "R" in an RTS 

[why-why analsys snipped]
>
> > Folks, the root cause of the problem is not the update. I maintain my
> > BUSTED status on that one.
>
> > Jeff
>
> Utterly unconvincing.

Well, I can't argue with your reasoning. LOL.

Dex
 >> Stay informed about: putting the "R" in an RTS 

On Oct 25, 3:18 am, "Chtom" <ch....DeleteThis@nonono.com> wrote:
> > Newbie: The game is complicated.
> > Jeff: WoW is more complicated.
>
> Jeff, do you really believe that ??
> A 6 year child can play WoW. Tell me when he would be able to play Empire.

I rest my case.

Dex
 >> Stay informed about: putting the "R" in an RTS 

<JeffHFCotter DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1193103196.425789.190540@e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 23, 12:20 am, Mark Ballinger <mballin... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 21, 3:55 am, JeffHFCot... DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > ====================================================
> > > Myth 2: The reason people don't play Empire is updates
> >
> > > Empire has Updates. WoW has end-game Raids
> >
> > > Myth 2: The reason people don't play Empire is updates -- BUSTED
> >
> > This is not the same thing at all, which is primarily why I find the
> > WoW/Empire comparison non-functional.
> >
> > The downside to missing a raid is you don't get invited back. The
> > downside to missing the wrong update is your many days or weeks of
> > work are gone gone gone. In every other massive multiplayer game,
> > time away from the keyboard is missed opportunities, but there's no
> > threat to your character or what ever else it is you're running.
> >
> > Is there a WoW equivalent to "you have several new messages" followed
> > by an empty "map *"?
> >
> > If there was, the first time it happened to a beginner player would
> > be the last time he or she put a check to Blizzard in the mail.
>
> This is an excellent point! It got me thinking, why not a bit of
> standard engineering analysis to get to the root cause of the problem.
> Let's why-why the problem.
>
> Newbie: Updates are a problem.
> Jeff: Why?
> Newbie: You cant miss them.
> Jeff: Yes you can, the update works fine if you are not there. Why?
> Newbie: The consequence of missing *certain* updates is dire.
> Jeff: Why?
> Newbie: Because Newbie players get ganked.
> Jeff: Why do Newbie players get ganked?
> Newbie: Because they are targeted by better players.
> Jeff: Of course they are! Its a game. So, why are newbies worried
> about getting targeted?
> Newbie: Because getting ganked is no fun!
> Jeff: Getting ganked is so fun. Nothing like getting whacked by a pair
> of rogues in stealth or a pally/hunter duo. Why isn't getting ganked
> fun?
> Newbie: It's not fun when you spend months in order to get to the fun
> parts, building up yer empire, then you dont even get to fight because
> you get rolled in one early morning.
> Jeff: Ahhhhh... all that work and you miss all the fun, yeah?
> Newbie: Yeah. And at least in WoW, you get to rez right away and to
> keep your sweet armor and weps when you get ganked.
> Jeff: Ahhhhh.... so you have a sense of progression?
> Newbie: Yeah.
> Jeff: So, back to a previous point you made. Why are newbies newbies?
> Newbie: It's hard to learn how to play.
> Jeff: Why?
> Newbie: The game is complicated.
> Jeff: WoW is more complicated. Why is Empire so hard to learn how to
> play?
> Newbie: The rules are arcane and the help files dont teach how to play
> well.
> Jeff: Why not?
> Newbie: Like every game, you have to learn by playing. In empire, us
> newbies get ganked before they can even learn how to play.
> Jeff: Ahhhh... need a better way to learn how to play?
> Newbie: Yeah.
>
> Folks, the root cause of the problem is not the update. I maintain my
> BUSTED status on that one.
>
> Jeff
>
>
Utterly unconvincing.
 >> Stay informed about: putting the "R" in an RTS 

"Markus Armbruster" <armbru DeleteThis @pond.sub.org> wrote in message
news:87k5pcmgri.fsf@pike.pond.sub.org...
> Mark Ballinger <mballinger DeleteThis @gmail.com> writes:
>
> > On Oct 21, 3:55 am, JeffHFCot... DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote:
> >> ====================================================
> >> Myth 2: The reason people don't play Empire is updates
> >>
> >> Empire has Updates. WoW has end-game Raids
> >>
> >> An end raid in WoW is where you and 4, 9, 19 or 39 of your guild mates
> >> get together to run an instance (a private dungeon) where you kill
> >> trash (easy beasties) in order to get to the bosses (very hard
> >> beasties). . . (snipped)
> >
> > > All in all, it's comparable to an update in time/engagement
> > required,
> > > yet players will show up every time, on time, at every scheduled
> > event
> > > to get a spot on the raid team. . . (snipped)
> > >
> > >
> > > Myth 2: The reason people don't play Empire is updates -- BUSTED
> >
> > This is not the same thing at all, which is primarily why I find the
> > WoW/Empire comparison non-functional.
> >
> > The downside to missing a raid is you don't get invited back. The
> > downside to missing the wrong update is your many days or weeks of
> > work are gone gone gone. In every other massive multiplayer game,
> > time away from the keyboard is missed opportunities, but there's no
> > threat to your character or what ever else it is you're running.
>
> Jeff's point was that players show up every time, on time, at every
> scheduled event. That the penalties for not showing up are smaller
> hardly weakens his argument.
>
> > Is there a WoW equivalent to "you have several new messages" followed
> > by an empty "map *"?
> >
> > If there was, the first time it happened to a beginner player would
> > be the last time he or she put a check to Blizzard in the mail.
>
> Now we're getting somewhere. We're no longer debating whether players
> don't play Empire because of updates, though.

When you say, "We're no longer debating whether players
don't play Empire because of updates" do you mean the discussion has
gone off on a tangent or that the issue is settled and beyond debate?
 >> Stay informed about: putting the "R" in an RTS 

Just a comment on the overall tenor of this thread.

I find it interesting that despite the fact that several folks besides
myself
have implied or flat out asserted that the updates are a major problem with
the game
quite a number of people don't seem to want to listen. Proving once again
that
denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

I remember when updates were added to the game and I predicted problems at
that
time but was ignored.

More than one person here has told the same tale as myself, we used to enjoy
the
game but it's evolved in ways that make it less compelling and we've moved
on to
other things. I came back to have a look after ten years or so and it's
even
worse than I remember. I'd really like to meet the dolts who thought land
units were
a good idea.

Some ideas that have been tossed out, such as doing a better job of getting
the word
out to new players, are so delusional as to be risible.

Folks, the problem is the game itself. The problem is not WinACE, which I
liked after
getting used to it, nor any other client. The problems can't be solved by
dismissing them
with non-arguments that this or that is "easily configurable".

'nuff said.
 >> Stay informed about: putting the "R" in an RTS 

On Oct 24, 5:46 pm, "Bungholio" <empire_bungholioNOS... RemoveThis @verizon.net>
wrote:
>...
> Micro-Updates - not an answer, unless you like catching the
> plague in RL, losing your job/spouse/mistress/gf/house/etc
> because you want to be on every update to micro-tweak.
>
> And to make a game to encourage players "not to play"?
> then what's the point of it being fun if I'm rewarded for 'not' doing it?
>
> -Bungy

I don't like updates, but I understand that micro-updates on their own
also are not the answer. In order for micro-updates to work you also
have to remove much of the micro-management that so that micro-
tweaking isn't necessary.

Ichthys
 >> Stay informed about: putting the "R" in an RTS 

On Oct 24, 3:28 pm, "Gerry Murphy" <gerrymur... RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote:
> Just a comment on the overall tenor of this thread.
>
> I find it interesting that despite the fact that several folks besides
> myself have implied or flat out asserted that the updates are a major
> problem with the game quite a number of people don't seem to want to listen.
> Proving once again that denial ain't just a river in Egypt.
>
> I remember when updates were added to the game and I predicted problems at
> that time but was ignored.


When were updates added and why? Much of what happens doesn't need an
update, stuff like adding mobility and producing. It seems to me
things that really need an update are delivery and distribution and
ships with sail orders.


>
> More than one person here has told the same tale as myself, we used to enjoy
> the
> game but it's evolved in ways that make it less compelling and we've moved
> on to
> other things. I came back to have a look after ten years or so and it's
> even
> worse than I remember. I'd really like to meet the dolts who thought land
> units were
> a good idea.
>

I haven't found land units to be too bad, except I wish it were either
mil or land units, not both. And all three types of units, land-sea-
air, should be more uniform in their statistics and commands.

Ichthys
 >> Stay informed about: putting the "R" in an RTS 

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 >> Stay informed about: putting the "R" in an RTS 

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 >> Stay informed about: putting the "R" in an RTS 

I'm sorry I don't have the time right now to read all the post but here are
my answer:

1. No rules.
Empire has nothing that is nearing a manual. Nothing to enlight the n00b so
that he can get a grasp at what is Empire and how it could be played. Having
a deity organizing Empire seminar is too time consuming and not enough
rewarding (I know, I've done some). And when RTFM means ready the source
code, it's even worse. Most new player don't even understand i++ but if he
does, he would find rules without logic (ex: reverse tech effect on strat
bombing).
And see point 4.

2. No web presence.
Newsgroups are something people are remembering because you can leech Gigs
of HD movies, not because of Empire.
No online (i.e. www) = nobody can be aware of Empire.

3. Really bad name.
Search "Empire" and you'll find billions of hit. The only worst name would
be XXX.

More a rant than anything else:
4. No real goal from the community to clean and refresh the rules.
Just compare old RPG and current ones. The rules are more streamlined, you
do't have one rule per situation to be solved...etc
The use of computer is not an excuse to put some stats and calculation, so
that you can't predict what will be the result of what your are doing.
Empire is a wargame. I wan't to be able to plan something without having to
setup a test server to simulate what I'll do or using Excel spread sheets.
Play a table top wargame. You'll understand the maximum that a humain brain
can manage then you'll see how much an extra (unnecessary) stuff we have in
Empire.
For the beginner, doing a action in Empire is like playing the russian
roulette. He has no clue of what could be the result.
In fact his best guess is to get a cryptic error message.

If I had to choose one thing, it would to modernize (and create) the Empire
rules.

Chtom.
 >> Stay informed about: putting the "R" in an RTS 

"Gerry Murphy" <gerrymurphy DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ssWdnQlBVYKsWILanZ2dnUVZ_g6dnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "Markus Armbruster" <armbru DeleteThis @pond.sub.org> wrote in message
> news:87k5pcmgri.fsf@pike.pond.sub.org...
>> Mark Ballinger <mballinger DeleteThis @gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> > On Oct 21, 3:55 am, JeffHFCot... DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote:
>> >> ====================================================
>> >> Myth 2: The reason people don't play Empire is updates
>> >>
>> >> Empire has Updates. WoW has end-game Raids
>> >>
>> >> An end raid in WoW is where you and 4, 9, 19 or 39 of your guild mates
>> >> get together to run an instance (a private dungeon) where you kill
>> >> trash (easy beasties) in order to get to the bosses (very hard
>> >> beasties). . . (snipped)
>> >
>> > > All in all, it's comparable to an update in time/engagement
>> > required,
>> > > yet players will show up every time, on time, at every scheduled
>> > event
>> > > to get a spot on the raid team. . . (snipped)
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Myth 2: The reason people don't play Empire is updates -- BUSTED
>> >
>> > This is not the same thing at all, which is primarily why I find the
>> > WoW/Empire comparison non-functional.
>> >
>> > The downside to missing a raid is you don't get invited back. The
>> > downside to missing the wrong update is your many days or weeks of
>> > work are gone gone gone. In every other massive multiplayer game,
>> > time away from the keyboard is missed opportunities, but there's no
>> > threat to your character or what ever else it is you're running.
>>
>> Jeff's point was that players show up every time, on time, at every
>> scheduled event. That the penalties for not showing up are smaller
>> hardly weakens his argument.
>>
>> > Is there a WoW equivalent to "you have several new messages" followed
>> > by an empty "map *"?
>> >
>> > If there was, the first time it happened to a beginner player would
>> > be the last time he or she put a check to Blizzard in the mail.
>>
>> Now we're getting somewhere. We're no longer debating whether players
>> don't play Empire because of updates, though.
>
> When you say, "We're no longer debating whether players
> don't play Empire because of updates" do you mean the discussion has
> gone off on a tangent or that the issue is settled and beyond debate?
>
>

Micro-Updates - not an answer, unless you like catching the
plague in RL, losing your job/spouse/mistress/gf/house/etc
because you want to be on every update to micro-tweak.

And to make a game to encourage players "not to play"?
then what's the point of it being fun if I'm rewarded for 'not' doing it?

-Bungy
 >> Stay informed about: putting the "R" in an RTS 

> A 6 year child can play WoW. Tell me when he would be able to play Empire.

So what? An 88 year old can plan WoW too. To put it in a PZ7 pespective, 1
billion people drink Bud Wiser beer too, does that mean it's a better beer than,
say Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, Guinness, or Dead Rogue Guy Lager? Empire is just
more "selective".

-BUNGY
 >> Stay informed about: putting the "R" in an RTS