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eddysterckx

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Since: May 13, 2005
Posts: 1293



(Msg. 31) Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:25 am
Post subject: Re: The problem with Panther Games [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: comp>sys>ibm>pc>games>war-historical (more info?)

On 17 dec, 19:17, pprocto....DeleteThis@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> Again, I am not take a swipe at you. I have heard similar comments
> many times. But, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!! Sometimes you just can't
> win.

It's really simple.

All we want is the entire WWII at the platoon level scale, but
playable in a single evening, with a Kasparov level AI and hundreds of
mods available 2 weeks after release. Oh, and we ain't prepared to
spend more than $50 on it.

Easy huh ? Smile

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

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Arjuna

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Since: Dec 17, 2007
Posts: 5



(Msg. 32) Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:33 pm
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On Dec 18, 8:08 am, "Mike Kreuzer" <m....TakeThisOut@FIRSTNAMEkreuzer.com> wrote:
> It's the wrong way around, and means all attacks are a matter of shoveling
> all units forward then sitting back & watching them arrive in column of
> blob. That's the disconnect for me: the role I should have is planner of
> phase lines & decider of rollbahns, but all I do is the equivalent of
> herding orcs (or whatever it is the kids click on now).

Point taken Mike. One of the things we are working on for BFTB is
adding an interface where the user can set the timings. But this does
involve a fair bit of work to handle all the cases where things don't
go according to the timings specified.

Another option I want to add is the ability for the user to sequence a
series of tasks. When combined with the ability to specify timings,
then you will be better able to orchestrate your master op plan.

Eg. Select force #1 order it to Move to X, then to Y ( each with
different task settings ), then Attack Z with a HHour set for 1300.
Select force #2 order it to Move to A then Attack Z with a HHour set
for 1300. Select force #3 order it to Bombard Z with from 1245 to 1300
at Slow rate of fire and then order it to bombard the Z from 1301 to
1315 at rapid ROF.

I also want to add in Triggers - ie an event that can be used to
activate a task or some other event. The way I envisage it working is
that the user would be able to specify a Named Area of Interest
( NAI ) ( James Sterret - see I have been listening Wink ) just like he
places an order location. The sidebar would show the Trigger settings.
These would include a radius, a trigger type and a state - eg location
= Town X, radius = 2000m, type = enemy occupied, state = true. Then
the user could order force #1 to Move to Y when the Trigger is
activated. Force #1 would then hold in its current or last location
until the trigger fires at which time it moves to Y.

This would enable the user to specify contingency responses and add
another dimension to the game. It would in fact go a fair way to
educating users on the need to be always thinking ahead, anticipating
developments and planning contingencies to meet them, rather than just
sitting back and watching as the operation unfolds. Good commanders
don't do that, they are always thinking ahead.

BTW I do appreciate the time people have taken here and the feedback
provided. Thank you.

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Arjuna

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Since: Dec 17, 2007
Posts: 5



(Msg. 33) Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:14 pm
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On Dec 18, 11:02 am, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg... DeleteThis @NOSPAMZ.hotmail.com>
wrote:

> At least give me a slider under the "orders delay" dialog so I can set
> the "timings" realism setting to "In Your Dreams, Mr. Stopwatch."

LOL love it! Smile)
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RobP

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Since: Dec 05, 2007
Posts: 67



(Msg. 34) Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:49 pm
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"serg271" <serg271.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c8335114-001f-462a-b13e-1dc429f853a4@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Frank E wrote:
>> Hey,
>>
>> I'm paraphrasing but here's a thought I just read on a beta forum
>> and it echoes a sentiment that I've heard quite often over the last
>> few years. "When I first saw HTTR/COTA, I thought it was going to
>> take the wargame industry by storm but it never seems to reach the
>> audience that it should."
>
> I for one not going even to touch it for several reason:
> 1. I'm casual gamer and this is a strange hybrid - operational level
> rts. I don't think this format is friendly to casual gamers.
> 2. I don't see the point why it should be rts. It's not a Harpoon,
> have no missiles and fighters so real time don't add to realism. There
> is no redeeming quality for it to be an rts.

I think they went for real time as it makes for more realistic planning. IE
you would plan for a particular battalion to be Hill 471 by 0630hrs, rather
than planning for a particular battalion to be at Hill 471 by turn 11. This
plus the lack of hexes all adds to a very realistic feel. But alas I
personally find it hard to get into as my subordinates are really good and
seem to run the battles for me!

Regards
RobP
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RobP

External


Since: Dec 05, 2007
Posts: 67



(Msg. 35) Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:18 pm
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Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

<eddysterckx.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fe72bc2b-6121-4d3f-9273-8291477508ef@w56g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On 17 dec, 19:17, pprocto....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>> Again, I am not take a swipe at you. I have heard similar comments
>> many times. But, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!! Sometimes you just can't
>> win.
>
> It's really simple.
>
> All we want is the entire WWII at the platoon level scale, but
> playable in a single evening, with a Kasparov level AI and hundreds of
> mods available 2 weeks after release. Oh, and we ain't prepared to
> spend more than $50 on it.
>
> Easy huh ? Smile
>

Wow! Mine is on order! Smile

RobP
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RobP

External


Since: Dec 05, 2007
Posts: 67



(Msg. 36) Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:34 pm
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Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

<pproctor69.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7c6d45d0-ffdb-4f18-b035-71824b82a5a6@c4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> But alas I
>> personally find it hard to get into as my subordinates are really good
>> and
>> seem to run the battles for me!
>>
>
> Rob,
>
> This is not a dig on you, but this is the kind of comment that makes
> developers want to hang themselves...
>
> If you force the player to fight his units individually, he says the
> AI sucks. If you create a really cool AI that is super smart, the
> player says the game is boring because he feels like a spectator.
>
> Again, I am not take a swipe at you. I have heard similar comments
> many times. But, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!! Sometimes you just can't
> win.
>
>
>
> PAT PROCTOR
> President, ProSIM Company
> http://www.prosimco.com/writing

Lol,

Must be frustrating being a wargames developer with customers like me
around! Smile

That said, I have bought all their games and this won't change when Bulge
comes out.

With COTA et al, I love the enemy AI, but just wish that one could turn
easily off or restrict the AI for my side, especially for the smaller
scenarios. My idea of a great operational level wargame would be:

i. COTA engine where AI can be disabled easily for particular formations and
the other formations can be taken completely out of the players control for
the larger scenarios. This could enable one to play the same large scenario
many times, but from the focus of different formation's point of view. Kind
of gives you the micro management without having to do it all.

ii. COTA engine with unit reports that aren't so damn inconsistent. I could
be in a battle stretching over many days and the AI will change its mind
about any enemy units type and position almost every minute! I think intel
should firm up over time, especially if the same unit has been engaged
continuously.

iii. Some kind of combat feedback or participation that is a little more
visceral. Even in games where I don't pick the targets like WitP and UV,
combat there is interesting because you see the detail and feel every bomb
hitting the enemy or your ships. I have thought long and hard as to how this
could be incorporated into the COTA engine, but so far the solution evades
me. If I hit on an idea I will be sure to post! Smile

iv. COTA in Northern France behind the Utah beaches on June 6th 1944... Smile)

Regards
RobP
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eddysterckx

External


Since: May 13, 2005
Posts: 1293



(Msg. 37) Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:40 pm
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Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 18 dec, 03:44, Oleg Mastruko <o....RemoveThis@bug.hr> wrote:
> Real
> life is an RTS, real battles with real commanders were RTS. So NOW
> that we have the computing power and developer prowess to make games
> run in real time what additional realism we would get by crippling
> them back to turn based mechanics?

Two remarks

1) Scale - a grand strategic game need not be realtime to be more
realistic than a turn-based one

2) There's one very good reason to go turn-based and it's called PBEM.
Given the demographic of wargamers and the reality of timezones this
is often the only option for guys wanting to play multi-player games.
Now, I have proposed a PBEM system for COTA in here before but the
reaction on it wasn't stellar.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
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Oleg Mastruko

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Since: Feb 09, 2005
Posts: 91



(Msg. 38) Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:44 am
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On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 23:42:48 -0800 (PST), serg271 <serg271.RemoveThis@gmail.com>
wrote:

>I for one not going even to touch it for several reason:
>1. I'm casual gamer and this is a strange hybrid - operational level
>rts. I don't think this format is friendly to casual gamers.
>2. I don't see the point why it should be rts. It's not a Harpoon,
>have no missiles and fighters so real time don't add to realism. There
>is no redeeming quality for it to be an rts.
>3. Those two campaigns don't hold much interest for me.
>4. I wouldn't usually buy a game with single campaign. I prefer more
>replayability and space for experimentation.

Points 3 and 4 I can understand, point #2 I cannot. It HAS to be
RTS. If you can't understand why it should be an RTS, not even after
reading all the lengthy arguments on that topic, then this is probably
not the game for you.

You say real time "does not add to realism" but that's reverse
logic. You're raised on turn based cr4p so you think real time does
not "add to realism". However it should be the other way round. Real
life is an RTS, real battles with real commanders were RTS. So NOW
that we have the computing power and developer prowess to make games
run in real time what additional realism we would get by crippling
them back to turn based mechanics?

That is the question you should be asking.
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eddysterckx

External


Since: May 13, 2005
Posts: 1293



(Msg. 39) Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:02 am
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On 18 dec, 13:46, Frank E <fakeaddr....RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:17:29 -0800 (PST), pprocto....RemoveThis@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >Rob,
>
> >This is not a dig on you, but this is the kind of comment that makes
> >developers want to hang themselves...
>
> >If you force the player to fight his units individually, he says the
> >AI sucks. If you create a really cool AI that is super smart, the
> >player says the game is boring because he feels like a spectator.
>
> >Again, I am not take a swipe at you. I have heard similar comments
> >many times. But, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!! Sometimes you just can't
> >win.
>
> The fact that CotA doesn't 'grab' you and pull you in seems to be a
> common element in this thread. It's a catch-22; the better your AI and
> the more realistic your control delays, the more noticeable this
> problem becomes.
>
> If that's true, it follows that at some point you have to step back
> and say 'my AI is good enough and I have plenty of features, now what
> do I do for the playability and style of this game?'

Or use the time to add content, content and content ?

Playability : my pet peeve here is that the engine should have a PBEM
system - but lacking that the AI needs to be top-notch as playing
against the AI is currently the overwhelming mode in with COTA is
played.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
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Giftzwerg

External


Since: Mar 23, 2005
Posts: 728



(Msg. 40) Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:52 am
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In article <emcem3l79i83elesld1pnn99694bo2d53r.RemoveThis@4ax.com>, oleg.RemoveThis@bug.hr
says...

> You say real time "does not add to realism" but that's reverse
> logic. You're raised on turn based cr4p so you think real time does
> not "add to realism". However it should be the other way round. Real
> life is an RTS, real battles with real commanders were RTS. So NOW
> that we have the computing power and developer prowess to make games
> run in real time what additional realism we would get by crippling
> them back to turn based mechanics?

Well said. The one thing the supply trucks are never going to unload is
Extra Time.

--
Giftzwerg
***
"More than 10,000 jet into Bali for global warming conference."
- Associated Press
"You just can't make this stuff up."
- Glenn Reynolds
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Frank E

External


Since: Dec 01, 2004
Posts: 398



(Msg. 41) Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:46 am
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On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:17:29 -0800 (PST), pproctor69 DeleteThis @yahoo.com wrote:

>
>Rob,
>
>This is not a dig on you, but this is the kind of comment that makes
>developers want to hang themselves...
>
>If you force the player to fight his units individually, he says the
>AI sucks. If you create a really cool AI that is super smart, the
>player says the game is boring because he feels like a spectator.
>
>Again, I am not take a swipe at you. I have heard similar comments
>many times. But, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!! Sometimes you just can't
>win.
>

The fact that CotA doesn't 'grab' you and pull you in seems to be a
common element in this thread. It's a catch-22; the better your AI and
the more realistic your control delays, the more noticeable this
problem becomes.

If that's true, it follows that at some point you have to step back
and say 'my AI is good enough and I have plenty of features, now what
do I do for the playability and style of this game?'

Rgds, Frank
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Mike Kreuzer

External


Since: Oct 20, 2007
Posts: 38



(Msg. 42) Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:08 am
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"RobP" <robertapollard DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:xEy9j.70566$cJ3.45934@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> "serg271" <serg271 DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:c8335114-001f-462a-b13e-1dc429f853a4@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>> Frank E wrote:
>>> Hey,
>>>
>>> I'm paraphrasing but here's a thought I just read on a beta forum
>>> and it echoes a sentiment that I've heard quite often over the last
>>> few years. "When I first saw HTTR/COTA, I thought it was going to
>>> take the wargame industry by storm but it never seems to reach the
>>> audience that it should."
>>
>> I for one not going even to touch it for several reason:
>> 1. I'm casual gamer and this is a strange hybrid - operational level
>> rts. I don't think this format is friendly to casual gamers.
>> 2. I don't see the point why it should be rts. It's not a Harpoon,
>> have no missiles and fighters so real time don't add to realism. There
>> is no redeeming quality for it to be an rts.
>
> I think they went for real time as it makes for more realistic planning.
> IE you would plan for a particular battalion to be Hill 471 by 0630hrs,
> rather than planning for a particular battalion to be at Hill 471 by turn
> 11. This plus the lack of hexes all adds to a very realistic feel. But
> alas I personally find it hard to get into as my subordinates are really
> good and seem to run the battles for me!
>
> Regards
> RobP

But there's the rub. In HTTR/COTA the player gives an order to a unit that
goes something like: "when you get around to it, go to Hill 471 by whatever
time you get around to arriving." Orders are all 'start now + some delay',
when they should be 'this is when you'll finish this task + I expect delays
due to snafus'.

It's the wrong way around, and means all attacks are a matter of shoveling
all units forward then sitting back & watching them arrive in column of
blob. That's the disconnect for me: the role I should have is planner of
phase lines & decider of rollbahns, but all I do is the equivalent of
herding orcs (or whatever it is the kids click on now).

<shrug> It's still a good game, but that's a big problem IMHO.

Regards,
Mike Kreuzer
www.mikekreuzer.com
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Giftzwerg

External


Since: Mar 23, 2005
Posts: 728



(Msg. 43) Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:08 am
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In article <4766e571$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au>, mike.RemoveThis@FIRSTNAMEkreuzer.com
says...

> But there's the rub. In HTTR/COTA the player gives an order to a unit that
> goes something like: "when you get around to it, go to Hill 471 by whatever
> time you get around to arriving." Orders are all 'start now + some delay',
> when they should be 'this is when you'll finish this task + I expect delays
> due to snafus'.
>
> It's the wrong way around, and means all attacks are a matter of shoveling
> all units forward then sitting back & watching them arrive in column of
> blob. That's the disconnect for me: the role I should have is planner of
> phase lines & decider of rollbahns, but all I do is the equivalent of
> herding orcs (or whatever it is the kids click on now).

I dunno. Part of me wants to agree, but an even bigger part is
groaning, "Aaaaaargh, like it's even remotely possible for a GPS /
encrypted satellite commo equipped US Army in *2007* to micromanage
fiddly little 'timings' like this."

In other words, *should* General Urquart be able to meticulously script
a series of neat "phase lines" and set up elaborately-crafted
"rollbahns" for units to click along with railroad-timetable precision?
Not. The reality of his situation was ... yep, shoveling battalions *if
he could even talk with them* in the general direction of the objectives
and praying. Is *every* situation like this? Nope, but I'd bet not
many WW2 situations lend themselves to a micromanaged arpeggio of bits
calmly ticking into place as the stopwatch advances...

....and this is what we're flirting with.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be some sort of "timings" built into the
system, but the last thing I'd like to see is the system jiggered such
that players could routinely count on neat rows of units ponying up to a
phase line for an 0807 and 17 seconds assault time.

At least give me a slider under the "orders delay" dialog so I can set
the "timings" realism setting to "In Your Dreams, Mr. Stopwatch."

--
Giftzwerg
***
"More than 10,000 jet into Bali for global warming conference."
- Associated Press
"You just can't make this stuff up."
- Glenn Reynolds
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Henius

External


Since: Dec 18, 2007
Posts: 4



(Msg. 44) Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:31 am
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Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

>
> Spoken like an old time micromanager, though. When Rommel radioed a
> regimental commander with an attack order, I'll bet he didn't send along
> a complex, ready-made "attack plan" - I bet he just just barked,
> "DESTROY AUSTRALIAN POSITIONS AT WADI EL-ARJUNA."
>

Good one Smile We sure don't want Arjuna to make his games more
complicated, do we?


But for me it is all about immersion into the game, which I find quite
difficult to define. I own both HTTR and COTA, but somehow I cannot
get myself to play them very much. Maybe it's the "dry" interface,
maybe it is the battle sounds, maybe it is because I know that the AI
would do much better without me interfereing.... But it doesn't change
the fact that I am enormously impressed by the games, the AI and the
feeling of "being in command" these games conveys.

And I still cannot define why I get more immersed in a MTW2 game than
in COTA.

- henius
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Giftzwerg

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Since: Mar 23, 2005
Posts: 728



(Msg. 45) Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:08 am
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In article <=b1nR07O9I1i+fD1szocB2qsbXKb@4ax.com>,
fakeaddress.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com says...

> >Again, I am not take a swipe at you. I have heard similar comments
> >many times. But, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!! Sometimes you just can't
> >win.
> >
>
> The fact that CotA doesn't 'grab' you and pull you in seems to be a
> common element in this thread. It's a catch-22; the better your AI and
> the more realistic your control delays, the more noticeable this
> problem becomes.
>
> If that's true, it follows that at some point you have to step back
> and say 'my AI is good enough and I have plenty of features, now what
> do I do for the playability and style of this game?'

To be fair to the system, though, while you *can* give orders to very
high echelon units and essentially let AI play AI, almost nobody every
does this. It's like my chess program; I *can* set it to play itself
.... but why do this? And if I do choose to set it up this way, is it
valid to complain that my interaction is so limited?

--
Giftzwerg
***
"I still find it hard to believe that the invention of the catapult
preceded the invention of the computer and all its peripherals; nothing
in human history exceeds the ability of the computer to make its user
want to construct a device that hurls heavy objects as far away as
possible."
- James Lileks
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