The problem with Panther Games

In article <i0F8j.135$hQ3.64@pd7urf3no>, spam.RemoveThis@trap.invalid says...

> > A word, too, about the quality of demos. Not to beat up on CM:SF too
> > much, but the two scenarios they selected for their demo were so weak,
> > listless, and dumb that I wonder why they even bothered. It's like
> > their goal was to ensure that nobody could possibly wring any enjoyment
> > out of the free demo ... because that would be like taking money out of
> > their pockets! Call me a lunatic, but I would make sure to populate a
> > demo I was making with the two *best* scenarios I had ...
> >
> > ... then again, perhaps they did do this!
>
> Well, IMO you can't really criticize CM:SF fairly unless you own the game as
> it has been patched up quite a lot since the demo was released. I said I
> wasn't going to buy CM:SF after trying the demo too but I bought it on an
> impulse buy at Walmart when I saw it selling for a fairly reasonable $38.99.
> Installed it, applied the patches and played a few scenarios. It's not as
> bad as you make it out to be. Bit rough around the edges but still gives me
> some good entertainment on occasion.

I'll keep an eye out for it in the bargain bin, for sure. My price
point is probably somewhere south of twenty bucks.

--
Giftzwerg
***
"More than 10,000 jet into Bali for global warming conference."
- Associated Press
"You just can't make this stuff up."
- Glenn Reynolds
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On 15 dec, 01:31, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg... DeleteThis @NOSPAMZ.hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <i0F8j.135$hQ3.64@pd7urf3no>, s... DeleteThis @trap.invalid says...
>
>
>
> > > A word, too, about the quality of demos. Not to beat up on CM:SF too
> > > much, but the two scenarios they selected for their demo were so weak,
> > > listless, and dumb that I wonder why they even bothered. It's like
> > > their goal was to ensure that nobody could possibly wring any enjoyment
> > > out of the free demo ... because that would be like taking money out of
> > > their pockets! Call me a lunatic, but I would make sure to populate a
> > > demo I was making with the two *best* scenarios I had ...
>
> > > ... then again, perhaps they did do this!
>
> > Well, IMO you can't really criticize CM:SF fairly unless you own the game as
> > it has been patched up quite a lot since the demo was released. I said I
> > wasn't going to buy CM:SF after trying the demo too but I bought it on an
> > impulse buy at Walmart when I saw it selling for a fairly reasonable $38.99.
> > Installed it, applied the patches and played a few scenarios. It's not as
> > bad as you make it out to be. Bit rough around the edges but still gives me
> > some good entertainment on occasion.
>
> I'll keep an eye out for it in the bargain bin, for sure. My price
> point is probably somewhere south of twenty bucks.

I've yet to see the first copy of it appearing in retail over here -
imho Paradox screwed them doing the European release - so I'll
probably have to go eBay on this one.

Bargain bin hunting can be fun - saw Warhammer - Dawn of War for $1.50
and bought it just for the heck of it. I probably won't like it, but
if $1.50 can re-affirm my preference of real wargames over RTS games
it's money well spend

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
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On 15 déc, 01:10, "Mephisto" <s....RemoveThis@trap.invalid> wrote:
> One improvement that I expect COTA doesn't have but wish it did is that when you
> see a message like COY A surrendered etc. you could click on the message and
> it would take you to that location on the map.

IIRC, it is possible in the message tab.

You can do that with the keyboard as well :
Pg Up/Pg Dow. Home to go to selected report. End to go to last
report.
See page 187 of the reference manual.

I hope this helps,

JeF.
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On 15 dec, 13:10, "Vincenzo Beretta" <reck....RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Bargain bin hunting can be fun - saw Warhammer - Dawn of War for $1.50
> > and bought it just for the heck of it.
>
> That's really a great game, even if you are not into RTS. Maybe I'm biased,
> because I just love the tabletop WH 40K,

I played the tabletop version a couple of times too - it was ok, but
I'm not so big on pure fantasy tabletop gaming so it's just an example
of how price elasticity works in my case

> Regarding CM:SF, I'm still waiting for a review copy from Paradox.
> Considering that they usually warn us of all the new releases, I find it
> strange. And the boxed version is nowhere in sight on the shelves, here in
> Italy.

Same here and afaik in The Netherlands too - Paradox screwed them with
regard to the European release - they did it with MadMinute and they
did it again with Battlefront.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
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On 15 dec, 12:48, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg... DeleteThis @NOSPAMZ.hotmail.com> wrote:

> Yeah, you can use the hotkeys, but not being able to just click on the
> messages as they appear has been one of my few pet peeves WRT HTTR/COTA.

It's on the wish list.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
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In article <09649c23-8104-4314-ab56-
814552084d2c.DeleteThis@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, lucas.jfr.DeleteThis@gmail.com says...

> > One improvement that I expect COTA doesn't have but wish it did is that when you
> > see a message like COY A surrendered etc. you could click on the message and
> > it would take you to that location on the map.
>
> IIRC, it is possible in the message tab.
>
> You can do that with the keyboard as well :
> Pg Up/Pg Dow. Home to go to selected report. End to go to last
> report.
> See page 187 of the reference manual.
>
> I hope this helps,

Yeah, you can use the hotkeys, but not being able to just click on the
messages as they appear has been one of my few pet peeves WRT HTTR/COTA.

--
Giftzwerg
***
"More than 10,000 jet into Bali for global warming conference."
- Associated Press
"You just can't make this stuff up."
- Glenn Reynolds
 >> Stay informed about: The problem with Panther Games 

"Giftzwerg" <giftzwerg999.DeleteThis@NOSPAMZ.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.21cd8928eae2fdab9896d6@news.giganews.com...
> In article <09649c23-8104-4314-ab56-
> 814552084d2c.DeleteThis@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, lucas.jfr.DeleteThis@gmail.com says...
>> IIRC, it is possible in the message tab.
>>
>> You can do that with the keyboard as well :
>> Pg Up/Pg Dow. Home to go to selected report. End to go to last
>> report.
>> See page 187 of the reference manual.
>>
>> I hope this helps,
>
> Yeah, you can use the hotkeys, but not being able to just click on the
> messages as they appear has been one of my few pet peeves WRT HTTR/COTA.
>
> --
> Giftzwerg

OK, thanks guys. I'll have to get around to actually reading the manual one
of these days.
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<eddysterckx.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0d4e1006-cf61-4712-af7c-5d27b022b290@l1g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> On 15 dec, 01:31, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg....RemoveThis@NOSPAMZ.hotmail.com> wrote:
>> In article <i0F8j.135$hQ3.64@pd7urf3no>, s....RemoveThis@trap.invalid says...
>>
>>
>>
>> > > A word, too, about the quality of demos. Not to beat up on CM:SF too
>> > > much, but the two scenarios they selected for their demo were so
>> > > weak,
>> > > listless, and dumb that I wonder why they even bothered. It's like
>> > > their goal was to ensure that nobody could possibly wring any
>> > > enjoyment
>> > > out of the free demo ... because that would be like taking money out
>> > > of
>> > > their pockets! Call me a lunatic, but I would make sure to populate
>> > > a
>> > > demo I was making with the two *best* scenarios I had ...
>>
>> > > ... then again, perhaps they did do this!
>>
>> > Well, IMO you can't really criticize CM:SF fairly unless you own the
>> > game as
>> > it has been patched up quite a lot since the demo was released. I said
>> > I
>> > wasn't going to buy CM:SF after trying the demo too but I bought it on
>> > an
>> > impulse buy at Walmart when I saw it selling for a fairly reasonable
>> > $38.99.
>> > Installed it, applied the patches and played a few scenarios. It's not
>> > as
>> > bad as you make it out to be. Bit rough around the edges but still
>> > gives me
>> > some good entertainment on occasion.
>>
>> I'll keep an eye out for it in the bargain bin, for sure. My price
>> point is probably somewhere south of twenty bucks.
>
> I've yet to see the first copy of it appearing in retail over here -
> imho Paradox screwed them doing the European release - so I'll
> probably have to go eBay on this one.
>
> Bargain bin hunting can be fun - saw Warhammer - Dawn of War for $1.50
> and bought it just for the heck of it. I probably won't like it, but
> if $1.50 can re-affirm my preference of real wargames over RTS games
> it's money well spend
>
> Greetz,
>
> Eddy Sterckx

DoW isn't bad for an RTS, especially when you slow it down. I found a
config file edit somewhere on their forums that let you slow down the game
to your liking and it was MUCH better. There's a lot of detail in the
various units that gets lost when playing at the standard speed. The
downside of course is that the AI is exposed as not being too smart when
playing at the slower speeds, as it doesn't use all of it's units'
capabilities. It's got tons of atmosphere, though, and looks pretty good.
Stuff blows up real nice as well. <g>

Found the link in my bookmarks - try this if you find it too fast:

http://forums.relicnews.com/showpost.php?p=1875030&postcount=13

KenB
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> Bargain bin hunting can be fun - saw Warhammer - Dawn of War for $1.50
> and bought it just for the heck of it.

That's really a great game, even if you are not into RTS. Maybe I'm biased,
because I just love the tabletop WH 40K, but it was the first game that
finally nailed the atmosphere (not the rules, of course). I even bought the
two expansions.

Regarding CM:SF, I'm still waiting for a review copy from Paradox.
Considering that they usually warn us of all the new releases, I find it
strange. And the boxed version is nowhere in sight on the shelves, here in
Italy.
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Frank E wrote:
> Hey,
>
> I'm paraphrasing but here's a thought I just read on a beta forum
> and it echoes a sentiment that I've heard quite often over the last
> few years. "When I first saw HTTR/COTA, I thought it was going to
> take the wargame industry by storm but it never seems to reach the
> audience that it should."

I for one not going even to touch it for several reason:
1. I'm casual gamer and this is a strange hybrid - operational level
rts. I don't think this format is friendly to casual gamers.
2. I don't see the point why it should be rts. It's not a Harpoon,
have no missiles and fighters so real time don't add to realism. There
is no redeeming quality for it to be an rts.
3. Those two campaigns don't hold much interest for me.
4. I wouldn't usually buy a game with single campaign. I prefer more
replayability and space for experimentation.

All this of cause casual gamer pov. Hardcore wargamers may have
different reasons.
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On 17 dec, 08:42, serg271 <serg... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I for one not going even to touch it for several reason:
> 1. I'm casual gamer and this is a strange hybrid - operational level
> rts. I don't think this format is friendly to casual gamers.

A 5 minute introductory video guide to COTA by yours truly is up
here :
http://cota.matrixgames.com/downloads/

Have a look at how easy it is to get up and running in this game.

> 2. I don't see the point why it should be rts. It's not a Harpoon,
> have no missiles and fighters so real time don't add to realism. There
> is no redeeming quality for it to be an rts.

Look at it as a turn-based wargame with 1-minute turns and an auto-
continue. Units which have been given orders will remember them from
turn to turn. You can pauze the game at any moment and think about
your next turn(s) for as long as you like.

> 3. Those two campaigns don't hold much interest for me.

How about the Bulge ?

> 4. I wouldn't usually buy a game with single campaign. I prefer more
> replayability and space for experimentation.

??? - there's no campaign in the game in the sense that you move from
one scenario to the next in a linked scenario framework. The games
consists of 30+ single scenarios all set in the WWII theatre and
timeframe. Some are taken from IRL others are what-ifs. But if
replayability and space for experimentation is your ticket than you
*really* need to take a closer look at it because that's what these
games are all about. The scenarios are not scripted and the AI will
come-up with a plan based on an evaluation of the current situation.
In other words : when you try something new the AI will *not* simply
perform it's standard scripted plan but will try to counter your
moves.

> All this of cause casual gamer pov. Hardcore wargamers may have
> different reasons.

Hardcore wargamers often don't seem to want to explore the world
beyond turn-based hex games - which for me is the primary reason
Panther Games should release a demo for their upcoming Battles from
the Bulge game as it's the only way to get a foot in the door.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
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On 15 dec, 18:19, "Ken Beard"

> Found the link in my bookmarks - try this if you find it too fast:
>
> http://forums.relicnews.com/showpost.php?p=1875030&postcount=13

Thanks man, that's just what I needed !

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
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> But alas I
> personally find it hard to get into as my subordinates are really good and
> seem to run the battles for me!
>

Rob,

This is not a dig on you, but this is the kind of comment that makes
developers want to hang themselves...

If you force the player to fight his units individually, he says the
AI sucks. If you create a really cool AI that is super smart, the
player says the game is boring because he feels like a spectator.

Again, I am not take a swipe at you. I have heard similar comments
many times. But, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!! Sometimes you just can't
win.



PAT PROCTOR
President, ProSIM Company
http://www.prosimco.com/writing
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