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External
Since: Dec 01, 2004
Posts: 389
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:25 am
Post subject: The problem with Panther Games
Archived from groups: comp>sys>ibm>pc>games>war-historical (more info?)
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Hey,
I'm paraphrasing but here's a thought I just read on a beta forum
and it echoes a sentiment that I've heard quite often over the last
few years. "When I first saw HTTR/COTA, I thought it was going to
take the wargame industry by storm but it never seems to reach the
audience that it should."
So, my question is, why hasn't Panther's game engine gotten the
audience that many people (myself included) think it should? Here's my
post-mortem, in no particular order.
- 'It needs a woman's touch'; A quote from my girlfriend as she walked
by while I was playing some wargame, I think it was CotA. That doesn't
mean that it needs more eye candy. It refers to the fact that the
screen just looks drab. It's lacking a sense of style when you compare
it to something like BoA.
- It's missing a hook to draw people in. If I knew what that hook was,
I'd be a marketing genius out making millions instead of posting on
usenet but I know it when I see it. It's that 'damn, this is cool'
moment that all good games have. CotA has that, but I didn't really
get that feeling until I'd been playing with the engine for a couple
of hours. That hook needs to be somewhere in the first hour of
gameplay.
- Where's the demo? I can't think of a game that needs a demo more
than CotA. It's not visually appealing so you aren't going to grab the
interest of people through screenshots. The theater of operations in
CotA is so esoteric that people aren't going ot plop down $50 based on
the subject matter. So all that's left is word of mouth, and that
obviously isn't working well enough. Maybe people are hesitant to
spend that kind of money on a recommendation? It doesn't need a demo
to show off the game, it needs a more generic demo to show off the
game engine.
- It's missing a 'community'. That's based on 2 things, I think. The
turnaround both in terms of new releases and patches is glacial by
anyone's standards. Combine that with the fact that the developers
don't encourage modding and there's nothing to keep the game engine
relevant and 'in the news'.
Rgds, Frank
- |
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External
Since: Sep 24, 2005
Posts: 15
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:25 am
Post subject: Re: The problem with Panther Games [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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> So, my question is, why hasn't Panther's game engine gotten the
> audience that many people (myself included) think it should? Here's my
> post-mortem, in no particular order.
These are two great games. I really enjoyed both of them. But let me
humbly submit my own hypotheses as to why CotA and HTTR haven't
dominated the marketplace:
-They are realtime and have no hexes.
It has been my experience that some wargamers are just so wedded to
the old wargaming paradigm that they REFUSE to play a game that does
not fall into their preconceived notions of what a wargame should look
and play like. This, coupled with no demo, means there is a large
demographic of wargamers that are NEVER under ANY circumstances going
to even give it a shot.
Again, this is not a dig on Panther Games. All our titles are
realtime, hex-less games, too. I think this produces a better
simulation of reality. But not all wargamers feel this way.
PAT PROCTOR
President, ProSIM Company
http://www.prosimco.com/writing |
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External
Since: Mar 23, 2005
Posts: 728
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:31 am
Post subject: Re: The problem with Panther Games [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <574c1010-0139-4a26-9d36-4ad8ff997364
@q3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, pproctor69 RemoveThis @yahoo.com says...
> These are two great games. I really enjoyed both of them. But let me
> humbly submit my own hypotheses as to why CotA and HTTR haven't
> dominated the marketplace:
>
> -They are realtime and have no hexes.
>
> It has been my experience that some wargamers are just so wedded to
> the old wargaming paradigm that they REFUSE to play a game that does
> not fall into their preconceived notions of what a wargame should look
> and play like. This, coupled with no demo, means there is a large
> demographic of wargamers that are NEVER under ANY circumstances going
> to even give it a shot.
*I* almost gave HTTR a pass, and now I'm among the #1 fans of the
system.
If ever there was a game that wanted a demo, it's this one.
--
Giftzwerg
***
"More than 10,000 jet into Bali for global warming conference."
- Associated Press
"You just can't make this stuff up."
- Glenn Reynolds >> Stay informed about: The problem with Panther Games |
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Since: Dec 05, 2007
Posts: 67
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:49 pm
Post subject: Re: The problem with Panther Games [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Frank E" <fakeaddress DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:wd9fRyeGIlX3ksyLFtbQ9ya3AK1r@4ax.com...
> Hey,
>
> I'm paraphrasing but here's a thought I just read on a beta forum
> and it echoes a sentiment that I've heard quite often over the last
> few years. "When I first saw HTTR/COTA, I thought it was going to
> take the wargame industry by storm but it never seems to reach the
> audience that it should."
>
> So, my question is, why hasn't Panther's game engine gotten the
> audience that many people (myself included) think it should? Here's my
> post-mortem, in no particular order.
>
> - 'It needs a woman's touch'; A quote from my girlfriend as she walked
> by while I was playing some wargame, I think it was CotA. That doesn't
> mean that it needs more eye candy. It refers to the fact that the
> screen just looks drab. It's lacking a sense of style when you compare
> it to something like BoA.
>
> - It's missing a hook to draw people in. If I knew what that hook was,
> I'd be a marketing genius out making millions instead of posting on
> usenet but I know it when I see it. It's that 'damn, this is cool'
> moment that all good games have. CotA has that, but I didn't really
> get that feeling until I'd been playing with the engine for a couple
> of hours. That hook needs to be somewhere in the first hour of
> gameplay.
>
> - Where's the demo? I can't think of a game that needs a demo more
> than CotA. It's not visually appealing so you aren't going to grab the
> interest of people through screenshots. The theater of operations in
> CotA is so esoteric that people aren't going ot plop down $50 based on
> the subject matter. So all that's left is word of mouth, and that
> obviously isn't working well enough. Maybe people are hesitant to
> spend that kind of money on a recommendation? It doesn't need a demo
> to show off the game, it needs a more generic demo to show off the
> game engine.
>
> - It's missing a 'community'. That's based on 2 things, I think. The
> turnaround both in terms of new releases and patches is glacial by
> anyone's standards. Combine that with the fact that the developers
> don't encourage modding and there's nothing to keep the game engine
> relevant and 'in the news'.
>
> Rgds, Frank
>
>
I think the map in COTA is superb. The bits I find that stop me from playing
too often are:
i. The reporting of enemy units in FoW. I don't know if it's just me, but
they seem to ping-pong a lot. I'd expect a few duff sightings, but on the
whole I'd expect the intel picture to firm up.
ii. The AI. Sounds strange, but the AI in this game is too bloody good! I
can give general orders to my commanders then retire to my command tent for
tea and medals whilst the commanders' sort out the details. I know it's
realistic, but in many Httr and Cota games I have felt that I'm spectator
rather than a participant
iii. Visceral combat! In common with many modern wargames, Cota and Httr
units select their own targets and fire away. One doesn't get the
satisfaction of picking a target and picking it apart with manual attacks. I
think this situation is exacerbated by the fact that you don't really see
detailed combat results unless you take a look at each individual unit. This
in itself seems to emphasize point ii. above where you are more of a
spectator watching events unfold.
Now, this post is making these games sound bad, but technically, these are
the most accurate and innovative operational games to come out in a long
time. I still have the odd battles with them and I have to say that when I'm
playing, I do feel like a commander rather than a games player. When the
Bulge comes out I will be buying it straight away as I want to support this
system. I'm secretly hoping that one day they will do Utah beach or that
whole peninsula. The engine would be perfect for para drops and the
inevitable link up with the seaborne infantry.
Regards
RobP >> Stay informed about: The problem with Panther Games |
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Since: Dec 01, 2004
Posts: 389
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:49 pm
Post subject: Re: The problem with Panther Games [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:49:06 GMT, "RobP" <robertapollard.RemoveThis@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>I think the map in COTA is superb. The bits I find that stop me from playing
>too often are:
I like the maps too, very functional once you start playing but I
don't think they make a very good first impression.
>ii. The AI. Sounds strange, but the AI in this game is too bloody good! I
>can give general orders to my commanders then retire to my command tent for
>tea and medals whilst the commanders' sort out the details. I know it's
>realistic, but in many Httr and Cota games I have felt that I'm spectator
>rather than a participant
I get around that by turning off command delay. The times I've played
with it turned on, I also get that 'spectator' feeling. With it
turned off, it might not be realistic but at least I get the feeling
that I'm contributing. <g>
>iii. Visceral combat! In common with many modern wargames, Cota and Httr
>units select their own targets and fire away. One doesn't get the
>satisfaction of picking a target and picking it apart with manual attacks. I
>think this situation is exacerbated by the fact that you don't really see
>detailed combat results unless you take a look at each individual unit. This
>in itself seems to emphasize point ii. above where you are more of a
>spectator watching events unfold.
I think you're right about the lack of feedback. Not sure how you
could change that though.
Rgds, Frank >> Stay informed about: The problem with Panther Games |
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Since: Dec 12, 2007
Posts: 5
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:49 pm
Post subject: Re: The problem with Panther Games [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Dec 12, 12:21 pm, Frank E <fakeaddr....DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:49:06 GMT, "RobP" <robertapoll....DeleteThis@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I think the map in COTA is superb. The bits I find that stop me from playing
> >too often are:
>
> I like the maps too, very functional once you start playing but I
> don't think they make a very good first impression.
>
> >ii. The AI. Sounds strange, but the AI in this game is too bloody good! I
> >can give general orders to my commanders then retire to my command tent for
> >tea and medals whilst the commanders' sort out the details. I know it's
> >realistic, but in many Httr and Cota games I have felt that I'm spectator
> >rather than a participant
>
> I get around that by turning off command delay. The times I've played
> with it turned on, I also get that 'spectator' feeling. With it
> turned off, it might not be realistic but at least I get the feeling
> that I'm contributing. <g>
>
> >iii. Visceral combat! In common with many modern wargames, Cota and Httr
> >units select their own targets and fire away. One doesn't get the
> >satisfaction of picking a target and picking it apart with manual attacks. I
> >think this situation is exacerbated by the fact that you don't really see
> >detailed combat results unless you take a look at each individual unit. This
> >in itself seems to emphasize point ii. above where you are more of a
> >spectator watching events unfold.
>
> I think you're right about the lack of feedback. Not sure how you
> could change that though.
>
> Rgds, Frank
The Arnhem game had a demo, at least when Panther was still with
Battlefront.
While a demo might help, I have come to believe that the real problem
is the lack of immersion. While playing--at least the first two games
of the series--I had the feeling that I was playing on a radar screen
miles from the action on the front. >> Stay informed about: The problem with Panther Games |
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Since: Nov 08, 2007
Posts: 83
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:49 pm
Post subject: Re: The problem with Panther Games [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Just FYI, a demo was tried for the first release in the Airborne
Assault series - it did not help sales at all from what I've heard.
Demos for wargames can be tricky things, but I think in a customer's
eyes a demo is always a "win-win" so they assume it must be a positive
thing for the game as well.
COTA has a video trailer and a 5 minute video guide, available here:
http://www.matrixgames.com/games/downloads.asp?gid=313
We have nothing against also releasing a demo for COTA, but it doesn't
exist yet and I'm not convinced it would have a significant effect.
Regards,
- Erik >> Stay informed about: The problem with Panther Games |
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Since: Dec 12, 2007
Posts: 2
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:49 pm
Post subject: Re: The problem with Panther Games [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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> Maybe it's just me but the older I get the less inclined I am to blow
> money on a game that I 'might' like. It's not a matter of disposable
> income either, my house and cars are paid for so I have a lot more
> money left over than ever before. I think I've just become jaded,
> wasted too much money over the years on games that I played for a
> couple of hours and never touched again.
>
I have exactly the same feeling, too little time, too many games in my
collection and 'risking' another buy of an unknown game just doesn't
feel right.
With boardgames that is a bit different, as they are nicely physical
boxes that fill one of my bookcases in the study. They also have some
collection value to me,
them not being digital and thus platform independent, I have the idea
I can still play them in 20 years or so and PC wargames don't give me
that feeling.
For me, I do like HTTR and COTA from a design point of view and am
amazed when playing them how easy it is to just play them! But for
some reason I don't seem to
get into them too. The nice thing about most hex 'n counter wargames
is that they give you instantaneous information after battle: "12th
coy lost 14 men and two AT guns in defence of...." while in COTA I
have to click on the unit and compare the blue strength lines with
what I remember from earlier on. It is a bit like watching an
animation on the news or in a history program on TV showing how a
certain battle went. Maybe I should try playing it with the command
delay off, less realistic but more involvement.
Bas >> Stay informed about: The problem with Panther Games |
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Since: Nov 16, 2007
Posts: 6
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:49 pm
Post subject: Re: The problem with Panther Games [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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> Maybe it's just me but the older I get the less inclined I am to blow
> money on a game that I 'might' like.
Same here, I have gone from 12+ purchases a year down to 3 this year.
I have piles of games waiting on my "try after patch" list, so why
would I want to try a new release that often? Just download an
update to a 1.x I bought in less cynical times and see what has been
fixed/added. In fact if publishers stopped publishing now I have
enough games to do me a looooong time.
Indeed looking back over the years I see I have started to buy just to
support talent - Panther, AGEOD, the guys who did Advanced Tactics -
and I'll keep buying those.
I wonder is there a lifecycle of an archetypal computer wargamer -
apart from the birth/age/death thing, of course! >> Stay informed about: The problem with Panther Games |
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Since: Nov 08, 2005
Posts: 22
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:49 pm
Post subject: Re: The problem with Panther Games [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"RobP" <robertapollard DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:maV7j.32896$cJ3.21297@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
>
This
> in itself seems to emphasize point ii. above where you are more of a
> spectator watching events unfold.
>
I mentioned this before on Matrix forums, there is a definite lack of
immersion, mainly due to the fact you are a more a spectator and less of a
participant. There are a lot of reasons why this is, but I still think the
number one reason is scale.
If you're going to make such a great simulation that handles almost all
tactical decisions for you and provides very limited feedback, then you have
to provide the player with an interactive role in the game somewhere. And
all that is left is strategic decision making. The fact their next game for
the Bulge doesn't include an all encompassing Bulge campaign scenario is
going to doom it to low sales again I think.
Players play games because they want to feel involved in what's going on and
this system takes away almost 90% of player involvement. Because it is so
good, there is no reason even to check up on things much, so you are
basically watching an AI vs. AI conflict. Give the big pictured to the
players and let them make decisions about strategic reserves, long term
goals, strategic redeployments, etc. and the system would shine.
I also think the system would probably do very well at the opposite end of
the scale. Make a squad level game to rival Close Combat and make its path
finding and graphics 100% better and I think you'd have a real winner on
your hands. That would of course require tremendous tweaking of the engine,
so using what you have now I'd say a strategic scale to the game would give
players more of a sense of involvement in what's going on. After all where's
the enjoyment in winning a game where the AI handled 90% of your victory?
Jim >> Stay informed about: The problem with Panther Games |
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Since: Nov 20, 2007
Posts: 20
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:49 pm
Post subject: Re: The problem with Panther Games [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Dec 12, 12:03 pm, ERutins <er... DeleteThis @matrixgames.com> wrote:
> Just FYI, a demo was tried for the first release in the Airborne
> Assault series - it did not help sales at all from what I've heard.
> Demos for wargames can be tricky things, but I think in a customer's
> eyes a demo is always a "win-win" so they assume it must be a positive
> thing for the game as well.
>
I guess that there are demos and then there are *DEMOS*.
Matrix just released the Harpoon Classic Commanders Edition without a
demo. Every previous edition always had a demo that consisted of the
*Full* game engine with a few honest-to-God real scenarios to play
(not some piddling tutorial sessions like they did for the old
Harpoon3). Anyone trying the old demos could see exactly what they
were getting -- no crippled engine or features. What they played with
the sample scenarios is what they would get if they purchased the
game. IMHO, it was one of the biggest selling features for the game.
The game literally sold itself.
Now, when folks ask about HCE, we can only point to demos that are
over 18 years old from previous versions that lack all the bells and
whistles of HCE. However, even those antiquated demos are often
enough to seduce many new potential players.
I think that the developers only shot themselves in the foot by
failing to release a demo with HCE. >> Stay informed about: The problem with Panther Games |
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Since: Dec 01, 2004
Posts: 389
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:49 pm
Post subject: Re: The problem with Panther Games [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:03:06 -0800 (PST), ERutins
<erikr DeleteThis @matrixgames.com> wrote:
>Just FYI, a demo was tried for the first release in the Airborne
>Assault series - it did not help sales at all from what I've heard.
It convinced me to buy the game. <g> ... and it wasn't a very good
demo from what I recall. It gave you a scenario but it didn't really
do anything to showcase the good points of the game engine.
>Demos for wargames can be tricky things, but I think in a customer's
>eyes a demo is always a "win-win" so they assume it must be a positive
>thing for the game as well.
Well yeah. The only downside that I can think of from your perspective
is that you might loose some sales from people who wouldn't have
liked the game if they'd bought it.
If you're counting on sales to that group in order to make money, I'd
suggest that Matrix reevaluate their business plan. :p
>COTA has a video trailer and a 5 minute video guide, available here:
>http://www.matrixgames.com/games/downloads.asp?gid=313
>
>We have nothing against also releasing a demo for COTA, but it doesn't
>exist yet and I'm not convinced it would have a significant effect.
What have you got to loose at this point? Put out a demo scenario, add
a PDF with a tutorial and some background material for the scenario
to give it some context and see if it doesn't help sales.
From my perspective, it's a lot easier to recommend a game if I can
give a link to a demo instead of telling the person that they have to
risk $50 just to try it.
Maybe it's just me but the older I get the less inclined I am to blow
money on a game that I 'might' like. It's not a matter of disposable
income either, my house and cars are paid for so I have a lot more
money left over than ever before. I think I've just become jaded,
wasted too much money over the years on games that I played for a
couple of hours and never touched again.
Rgds, Frank >> Stay informed about: The problem with Panther Games |
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Since: Jul 24, 2005
Posts: 58
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:49 pm
Post subject: Re: The problem with Panther Games [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 14:38:22 -0500, Frank E <fakeaddress.RemoveThis@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Maybe it's just me but the older I get the less inclined I am to blow
>money on a game that I 'might' like. It's not a matter of disposable
>income either, my house and cars are paid for so I have a lot more
>money left over than ever before. I think I've just become jaded,
>wasted too much money over the years on games that I played for a
>couple of hours and never touched again.
exactly. $50 isn't to much for a good game but it's way too much for a
bad game and when you plonk down your money you never know which you
are going to get. >> Stay informed about: The problem with Panther Games |
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Since: Feb 19, 2006
Posts: 41
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:13 pm
Post subject: Re: The problem with Panther Games [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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pproctor69 RemoveThis @yahoo.com wrote:
>>So, my question is, why hasn't Panther's game engine gotten the
>>audience that many people (myself included) think it should? Here's my
>>post-mortem, in no particular order.
>
>
> These are two great games. I really enjoyed both of them. But let me
> humbly submit my own hypotheses as to why CotA and HTTR haven't
> dominated the marketplace:
>
> -They are realtime and have no hexes.
Which if you believe what most wargamers say about realism would lead
one to believe that realtime is a big plus. But then they're only saying
that. they really don't want realism. Realism is hard and the more real
it gets the more boring it is except for the short bursts of action that
will occur.
Luckily the Panther series suffers that burst of action thing but only
to a lesser extent since they really aren't realtime but speeded up time.
> It has been my experience that some wargamers are just so wedded to
> the old wargaming paradigm that they REFUSE to play a game that does
> not fall into their preconceived notions of what a wargame should look
> and play like. This, coupled with no demo, means there is a large
> demographic of wargamers that are NEVER under ANY circumstances going
> to even give it a shot.
Agreed...
> Again, this is not a dig on Panther Games. All our titles are
> realtime, hex-less games, too. I think this produces a better
> simulation of reality. But not all wargamers feel this way.
>
>
> PAT PROCTOR
> President, ProSIM Company
> http://www.prosimco.com/writing
The pathes to realtime that both Panther and ProSim took do produce a
better simulation of realtime. Both do a reasonable job of putting the
player into the commanders seat if that is what the player wants (me)
while allowing micro-management if desired.
Unfortunately I've observed over the last 45 years of wargaming, that
though wargamers say they want to sit in the commanders seat, they
really don't. They can't handle it when a unit doesn't do what they want
or expect. Fog of war realisticly implemented is maddening to most; they
don't really understand friction, command and control, logistics etc and
all the myriad things that can go wrong and the consequences. Gamers
want everything in neat little packages and units to do exactly what
they're ordered to even if it's something stupid like fight to the last
man and are surprised when the unit flips the player the virtual finger
and hauls ass.
Wargamers talk a good game and that's what they really want - a game -
not a sim. >> Stay informed about: The problem with Panther Games |
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Since: Dec 13, 2007
Posts: 9
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:48 pm
Post subject: Re: The problem with Panther Games [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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> Just FYI, a demo was tried for the first release in the Airborne
> Assault series - it did not help sales at all from what I've heard.
It worked for me. Several weeks after the RDoA demo came out I "finally got
round" to checking it out. Half an hour later, I was on-line ordering the
game and cursing the fact (in those pre-dd days) that it was going to take a
couple of weeks to get to me.
Demos work. Correction (picking up on Gifty's point), good demos work.
Andy >> Stay informed about: The problem with Panther Games |
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