pretty decent weapon [NPP]

holy yeek paladin!

that is one TWEAKED weapon.

i agree though, on one of my characters BOTH the boots have aggravation
on .... and that is ...... QUITE aggravating (to me , as well as to
the monsters)
 >> Stay informed about: pretty decent weapon [NPP] 

"magnate" <chrisc.RemoveThis@dbass.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1145358029.787053.57460@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>I don't know how NPP does randarts but that looks like it would be "the
> Deathwreaker-based randart". The activation made me wonder if it was
> derived from Ringil, but it's quite a lot more powerful than Ringil.
> That's an awful lot of resists you don't need to fill in other
> equipment slots, and 9 attacks which slay just about everything except
> acid-resistant golems and angels. In a variant with O-combat the
> 9-sided dice would be icing on the cake.
>
> CC
>

That is based on Ringil. The activations don't change from the regular
randart set. Speed is probably the highest rated factor, so when you take
the power of Ringil and try to equal that with non-speed features, it is
going to be obscenely powerful.

I am sure I will be tweaking the randart generation code for many versions
to come.

-Jeff
 >> Stay informed about: pretty decent weapon [NPP] 

darkDrone wrote:
> holy yeek paladin!
>
> that is one TWEAKED weapon.
>
> i agree though, on one of my characters BOTH the boots have aggravation
> on .... and that is ...... QUITE aggravating (to me , as well as to
> the monsters)
>

Many of my characters have had tweaked weapons in Pos thanks to
reforging. A couple of examples from my Dark Elf Priest:

a) The Executioner's Sword of Gonul (6d5) (+19,+9) (+4) {@w0}
It increases your strength, intelligence, dexterity, and
charisma by 4. It increases your searching by 4. It slays
orcs and all evil creatures, and it is especially deadly
against demons. It is branded with electricity, fire, frost,
and poison. It provides resistance to acid, lightning, cold,
light, and nexus. It sustains your wisdom. It grants you
the ability to see invisible things. It cannot be harmed by
the elements. It gives you 5 attacks per turn.
b) The Short Bow 'Oionth' (x2) (+9,+9) (+3)
It increases your constitution by 3. It increases your
shooting power by 3. It provides resistance to acid, fear,
and light. It cannot be harmed by the elements.
 >> Stay informed about: pretty decent weapon [NPP] 

Timo Pietilä <timo.pietila DeleteThis @helsinki.fi> writes:

> Jeff Greene wrote:
>
>> That is based on Ringil. The activations don't change from the
>> regular randart set. Speed is probably the highest rated factor, so
>> when you take the power of Ringil and try to equal that with
>> non-speed features, it is going to be obscenely powerful.
>
> Ringil is still more powerful than that weapon. +10 speed is for
> reason highest rated factor. Ringil also doesn't aggravate.

Ringil doesn't come close. You can usually get reasonable speed
without your weapon. It's an endgame level weapon, so assume endgame
level accessories. Let's say you have base +20 speed without the
weapon. Then, haste for +30 speed. The difference for another +10
speed doesn't come close to the +50% damage [for a fighter] from +3
blows, and for a mage/priest that's +75% damage for +3 blows.

The only problem is aggravation.


Eddie
 >> Stay informed about: pretty decent weapon [NPP] 

Jeff Greene wrote:

> That is based on Ringil. The activations don't change from the regular
> randart set. Speed is probably the highest rated factor, so when you take
> the power of Ringil and try to equal that with non-speed features, it is
> going to be obscenely powerful.

Ringil is still more powerful than that weapon. +10 speed is for reason
highest rated factor. Ringil also doesn't aggravate.

+10 speed for +-0 speed char = 2* blows (12), +10 for +10 = 2/3 blows
(10) and +10 to +20 char 1/3 blows which equals for warrior approx 8
blows. Speed also prevents double moves, allows you to fight fast
monsters and all that. Resists for weapons are not that powerful because
armors give them.

4d5 = 12, 2d9 = 10, so it loses for dice too (slays are about same, acid
brand is much better than Ringils cold brand but other slays are not so
powerful).

Timo Pietilä
 >> Stay informed about: pretty decent weapon [NPP] 

Eddie Grove wrote:
> Timo Pietilä <timo.pietila.DeleteThis@helsinki.fi> writes:
> > Jeff Greene wrote:
> >
> >> That is based on Ringil. The activations don't change from the
> >> regular randart set. Speed is probably the highest rated factor, so
> >> when you take the power of Ringil and try to equal that with
> >> non-speed features, it is going to be obscenely powerful.

Then I suggest you have overrated speed. Chris Robertson and I spent
quite a lot of time balancing the value of speed for precisely this
reason - so that randarts derived from Ringil or Cubragol were not
noticeably more or less powerful than ... Ringil or Cubragol ...

I can't remember exactly, but I think we ended up making a lookup table
because we couldn't find a satisfactory geometric relationship between
speed pval and "power". The nearest was ^1.5 but that still overrated
large pvals. Speed of +1 or +2 is not terribly helpful, then there's a
large increase in the value of pvals around +5/6/7, but then +9 or +10
is not really significantly better than +7 or +8 - by then you would be
closely examining the other attributes of the item to decide whether to
wear it. So speed needs very careful handling when evaluating artifact
power.

> > Ringil is still more powerful than that weapon. +10 speed is for
> > reason highest rated factor. Ringil also doesn't aggravate.
>
> Ringil doesn't come close. You can usually get reasonable speed
> without your weapon. It's an endgame level weapon, so assume endgame
> level accessories. Let's say you have base +20 speed without the
> weapon. Then, haste for +30 speed. The difference for another +10
> speed doesn't come close to the +50% damage [for a fighter] from +3
> blows, and for a mage/priest that's +75% damage for +3 blows.
>
> The only problem is aggravation.

I agree with Eddie 100%. +10 speed on a main weapon is not nearly as
useful as extra slays, brands and blows, because speed is available on
so many other items (especially with randarts). Ironically this is
precisely the argument Jeff used against the value of so many high
resists - but this leads to another factor: the number of slots
available is finite. So having lots of resists on one item, even a
weapon, is worth more than simply the sum of the values of all the
individual resists, because if you can cross off 11 of 16 resists in
one item, you have massively greater choice about what to wear in the
other slots. Chris & I reflected this with an additional power
increment for each resist beyond the second (counting rbase as one).

CC
 >> Stay informed about: pretty decent weapon [NPP] 

Timo Pietilä wrote:
> Eddie Grove wrote:
> > Timo Pietilä <timo.pietila.DeleteThis@helsinki.fi> writes:
> >> Jeff Greene wrote:
> >>
> >>> That is based on Ringil. The activations don't change from the
> >>> regular randart set. Speed is probably the highest rated factor, so
> >>> when you take the power of Ringil and try to equal that with
> >>> non-speed features, it is going to be obscenely powerful.
> >> Ringil is still more powerful than that weapon. +10 speed is for
> >> reason highest rated factor. Ringil also doesn't aggravate.
> >
> > Ringil doesn't come close. You can usually get reasonable speed
> > without your weapon.
>
> But that includes RoS almost certainly. With Ringil you can swap in
> other ring. If endgame that includes Rings of Power.

But the Rings of Power give +speed too, don't they? Less than +10, but
it helps.

> > It's an endgame level weapon, so assume endgame
> > level accessories. Let's say you have base +20 speed without the
> > weapon. Then, haste for +30 speed. The difference for another +10
> > speed doesn't come close to the +50% damage [for a fighter] from +3
> > blows, and for a mage/priest that's +75% damage for +3 blows.
>
> That's not "another" +10, it is change of gear to get that +20.
>
> > The only problem is aggravation.
>
> Which is big negative in NPP. Simple solution: if item converted doesn't
> have aggravation, don't add it.

It's extremely difficult to balance "drawbacks" with randarts. The old
GW code still used in V simply adds aggravation to any artifact whose
power is greater than a certain fixed amount, which means ANY randart
derived from anything as powerful as Ringil would aggravate. There are
alternatives to this - like a %chance of getting aggravate which
increases with randart power but never reaches 100%. Or playing about
with other drawbacks, like curses, xp drain and -ve pvals. If Julian
does bring multiple pvals into V I will definitely update the randart
patch to use them, for this reason if no other.

CC
 >> Stay informed about: pretty decent weapon [NPP] 

Timo Pietilä wrote:
> magnate wrote:
>
> > I agree with Eddie 100%. +10 speed on a main weapon is not nearly as
> > useful as extra slays, brands and blows,
>
> Real Ringil has better dice, slays, weaker brand, but no blows. Having
> +10 speed from weapon usually gives you larger choise of other items
> making it more powerful.

Better slays? I don't recall Ringil having *slay* anything, and this
randart slays just about everything. Admittedly slay evil is not as
good as slay undead+slay demon, but it'll do. Slay evil+slay
animal+acid brand is a combo which at least doubles damage against
almost anything.

You are correct that +10 speed gives you greater choice of other items,
but this is no greater than the choice afforded by a weapon with rbase
and 7 high resists!

> > because speed is available on
> > so many other items (especially with randarts).
>
> Haven't played with randarts, so this might nullify my point.

I play with randarts all the time, and I find that the generator (at
least mine and GW's, not sure about Jeff's) tends to put small speed
bonuses on a large number of items, because it doesn't trip the excess
power check late in the generation process where a large number of
other attributes would. So if you have for example an item with a
couple of high resists and an ability (say FA), and it's still 20% or
so short of its parent artifact's power, the generator will try several
attempts to add a final ability without revisiting the first three
chosen. If the numbers are such that another high resist, or a pval
like +STR, would trip the excess power check, it's often the case that
+2 or +3 speed will not trip it. So you can more easily acquire +20
speed with randarts than purely with rings and boots (unless you find
Cubragol).

> > Ironically this is
> > precisely the argument Jeff used against the value of so many high
> > resists - but this leads to another factor: the number of slots
> > available is finite. So having lots of resists on one item, even a
> > weapon, is worth more than simply the sum of the values of all the
> > individual resists, because if you can cross off 11 of 16 resists in
> > one item, you have massively greater choice about what to wear in the
> > other slots. Chris & I reflected this with an additional power
> > increment for each resist beyond the second (counting rbase as one).
>
> What you need in resists are:
> rBase, poison, confusion, sound, blindness. (IMO blindness should be
> ability like free action, not resist)
>
> Everything else is extra and should _not_ count any extra improvement in
> power. That weapon did have almost all of those, but getting them from
> other items (armor) should not be too hard (or is randarts broken in
> that fashion? It doesn't create resists?)

No, randarts are not broken, but I totally disagree with your assertion
that resistances like shards, nexus, nether, chaos, disenchantment and
abilities like telepathy, FA, regen and so on are worth zero power!!
(Or even zero additional power for being on the same item, which may be
what you meant.)

Getting the resists from armour isn't too hard, of course, but it all
depends on what you find. If you find a helm of telepathy as your only
source of ESP, but a helm of serenity is your only other source of
rblind/rconf/rsound, you would of course have to live without
telepathy. But not with this weapon ...

That's the kind of flexibility I mean. It is very definitely worth
additional power rating having so many resists/abilities on one item.

CC
 >> Stay informed about: pretty decent weapon [NPP] 

Eddie Grove wrote:
> Timo Pietilä <timo.pietila.RemoveThis@helsinki.fi> writes:
>
>> Jeff Greene wrote:
>>
>>> That is based on Ringil. The activations don't change from the
>>> regular randart set. Speed is probably the highest rated factor, so
>>> when you take the power of Ringil and try to equal that with
>>> non-speed features, it is going to be obscenely powerful.
>> Ringil is still more powerful than that weapon. +10 speed is for
>> reason highest rated factor. Ringil also doesn't aggravate.
>
> Ringil doesn't come close. You can usually get reasonable speed
> without your weapon.

But that includes RoS almost certainly. With Ringil you can swap in
other ring. If endgame that includes Rings of Power.

> It's an endgame level weapon, so assume endgame
> level accessories. Let's say you have base +20 speed without the
> weapon. Then, haste for +30 speed. The difference for another +10
> speed doesn't come close to the +50% damage [for a fighter] from +3
> blows, and for a mage/priest that's +75% damage for +3 blows.

That's not "another" +10, it is change of gear to get that +20.

> The only problem is aggravation.

Which is big negative in NPP. Simple solution: if item converted doesn't
have aggravation, don't add it.

Timo Pietilä
 >> Stay informed about: pretty decent weapon [NPP] 

magnate wrote:

> I agree with Eddie 100%. +10 speed on a main weapon is not nearly as
> useful as extra slays, brands and blows,

Real Ringil has better dice, slays, weaker brand, but no blows. Having
+10 speed from weapon usually gives you larger choise of other items
making it more powerful.

> because speed is available on
> so many other items (especially with randarts).

Haven't played with randarts, so this might nullify my point.

> Ironically this is
> precisely the argument Jeff used against the value of so many high
> resists - but this leads to another factor: the number of slots
> available is finite. So having lots of resists on one item, even a
> weapon, is worth more than simply the sum of the values of all the
> individual resists, because if you can cross off 11 of 16 resists in
> one item, you have massively greater choice about what to wear in the
> other slots. Chris & I reflected this with an additional power
> increment for each resist beyond the second (counting rbase as one).

What you need in resists are:
rBase, poison, confusion, sound, blindness. (IMO blindness should be
ability like free action, not resist)

Everything else is extra and should _not_ count any extra improvement in
power. That weapon did have almost all of those, but getting them from
other items (armor) should not be too hard (or is randarts broken in
that fashion? It doesn't create resists?)

Timo Pietilä
 >> Stay informed about: pretty decent weapon [NPP] 

magnate wrote:
> Timo Pietilä wrote:
>> magnate wrote:
>>
>>> I agree with Eddie 100%. +10 speed on a main weapon is not nearly as
>>> useful as extra slays, brands and blows,
>> Real Ringil has better dice, slays, weaker brand, but no blows. Having
>> +10 speed from weapon usually gives you larger choise of other items
>> making it more powerful.
>
> Better slays? I don't recall Ringil having *slay* anything,

It does. It has KILL_DEMON.

> and this
> randart slays just about everything.

NPP hydras. Most of others that do have some importance lose to original
Ringil. And I would avoid hydras anyway.

> Admittedly slay evil is not as
> good as slay undead+slay demon, but it'll do. Slay evil+slay
> animal+acid brand is a combo which at least doubles damage against
> almost anything.

Acid triples. But OTOH from those that other slays from original Ringil
doesn't cover so does Cold too.

>>> because speed is available on
>>> so many other items (especially with randarts).
>> Haven't played with randarts, so this might nullify my point.
>
> I play with randarts all the time, and I find that the generator (at
> least mine and GW's, not sure about Jeff's) tends to put small speed
> bonuses on a large number of items, because it doesn't trip the excess

> +2 or +3 speed will not trip it. So you can more easily acquire +20
> speed with randarts than purely with rings and boots (unless you find
> Cubragol).

OK, this nullifies my point.

>> What you need in resists are:
>> rBase, poison, confusion, sound, blindness. (IMO blindness should be
>> ability like free action, not resist)
>>
>> Everything else is extra and should _not_ count any extra improvement in
>> power. That weapon did have almost all of those, but getting them from
>> other items (armor) should not be too hard (or is randarts broken in
>> that fashion? It doesn't create resists?)
>
> No, randarts are not broken, but I totally disagree with your assertion
> that resistances like shards, nexus, nether, chaos, disenchantment and
> abilities like telepathy, FA, regen and so on are worth zero power!!
> (Or even zero additional power for being on the same item, which may be
> what you meant.)

Abilites are worth a lot, especially FA (which it lacks, but Ringil
doesn't) and ESP. Resistances not so much. Except those abovementioned
8. Of course each resistance should count something, but not so much (I
understood that in your system each extra resist is worth more than
alone one).

That weapon also aggravates which is *big* penalty in NPP. Much bigger
than in vanilla. I have very simple solution for that: If original item
doesn't aggravate don't add it.

Timo Pietilä
 >> Stay informed about: pretty decent weapon [NPP] 

"Timo Pietilä" <timo.pietila.RemoveThis@helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:4alp86Ft9dsfU1@individual.net...
> Jeff Greene wrote:
>
>> That is based on Ringil. The activations don't change from the regular
>> randart set. Speed is probably the highest rated factor, so when you
>> take the power of Ringil and try to equal that with non-speed features,
>> it is going to be obscenely powerful.
>
> Ringil is still more powerful than that weapon. +10 speed is for reason
> highest rated factor. Ringil also doesn't aggravate.
>
> +10 speed for +-0 speed char = 2* blows (12), +10 for +10 = 2/3 blows (10)
> and +10 to +20 char 1/3 blows which equals for warrior approx 8 blows.
> Speed also prevents double moves, allows you to fight fast monsters and
> all that. Resists for weapons are not that powerful because armors give
> them.
>
> 4d5 = 12, 2d9 = 10, so it loses for dice too (slays are about same, acid
> brand is much better than Ringils cold brand but other slays are not so
> powerful).
>
I also view speed as more important, and I rates it such in my randart code.
Extra attacks are great, but there are many other essential combat maneuvers
(digging an anti summoning corridor when those time hounds are approaching
you, quaffing a healing potion, teleporting away or banishing summoned
creatures) where Ringil's speed helps and extra attacks do nothing.

-Jeff
 >> Stay informed about: pretty decent weapon [NPP]