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VALIS

External


Since: Mar 23, 2005
Posts: 96



(Msg. 16) Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:25 am
Post subject: Re: The power of you [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>games>roguelike>angband (more info?)

On 2007-12-09 06:20:12, bbound.RemoveThis@gmail.com wrote:

> On Dec 8, 3:49 am, andrewdoull wrote:
> > Looking at the Angband variants with the most active forums: it appears Furyband
> > is maybe four times larger, Portralis probably a third smaller...
>
> Portralis? WTF is Portralis? This is the first I've heard of it, and I
> read every post in this newsgroup religiously, even though I mostly
> lurk these days. I should therefore know of every variant with any
> degree of currency.

I don't follow this reasoning. Reading every post in the
rec.games.roguelike.angband community does not necessarly equate to perfect
knowledge of every variant. I'm curious what makes you think that would be the
case.

You remind me of someone. . .

--
-Campbell

- Join the steamband group by sending an email to
steamband-subscribe.RemoveThis@Yahoogroups.com !
- Visit the Steamband web page, and follow the progress of Steam! (and view my
art!) http://angband.oook.cz/steamband/

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R. Dan Henry

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Since: Mar 25, 2005
Posts: 615



(Msg. 17) Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:54 am
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On Sat, 8 Dec 2007 13:36:16 +0000 (UTC), VALIS <valis.DeleteThis@oook.cz> wrote:

>Look at successful shareware authors, people who code there own freeware. You
>don't see the creators of dwarf fortress bitching about whether or not it's
>worth their time, Nor T. Biskup, nor the author of Fastcrawl. Mostly they are
>too busy fsking coding and, oh, I don't know, say, giving interviews about their
>successful software to post online whining about their userbase.

Mr. Biskup requested and received quite a bit of feedback in the form of
postcards, so I'm not sure he's a good example of a coder not needing
attention. (He's not bitching about lack of response because he gets
plenty.)

>How is it other people's responsibility to motivate you? I know you're
>(probably) generation Y and everything, but this seriously isn't how things get
>done IRL. Check with any local authors, or anyone in a low paying creative
>field. They aren't doing it for the kudos. Code and books are being written
>without their authors being praised.

True. As far as I know, I'm the only one who has played the last Gumband
release, but I haven't given up on it. Counterpoint: most creative
people have multiple projects and if one of them starts to generate
extrinsic rewards, whether in terms of profit or praise, that project
will tend to get more attention.

>Again, for clarity's sake. Me posting something positive about a game will *not*
>make someone else love it. Only the game can do that.

But it might make them aware the game exists, or to make the effort to
try it if they already know about it but haven't bothered. And that
gives the game the *chance* to earn that person's love. It never gets
that chance if they never try the game in the first place.

Regarding Unangband: I took a look at it in response to some articles
Andrew has been posting on r.g.r.development. I find the dungeons garish
and at least the early ones are tedious to move through because rooms
and corridors are frequently designed so they cannot be run through. I
have not found any feature that hooks me and makes we want to play the
game more. Also, while I start the game with a torch equipped, when I
enter the dungeon, I must still take the action of wielding a torch
before my surrounding cease to be nothing but gray "x"s.

--
R. Dan Henry
danhenry.DeleteThis@inreach.com
Holy Avenger should be a Paladin title,
not an ego item.

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R. Dan Henry

External


Since: Mar 25, 2005
Posts: 615



(Msg. 18) Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:54 am
Post subject: Re: The power of you [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sat, 8 Dec 2007 16:57:44 +0000 (UTC), Kenneth 'Bessarion' Boyd
<zaimoni DeleteThis @zaimoni.com> wrote:

>"Fan base" is ultimately a marketing problem.

Hence Andrew's desire to get amateur marketing going for amateur
products.

--
R. Dan Henry
danhenry DeleteThis @inreach.com
Holy Avenger should be a Paladin title,
not an ego item.
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konijn_

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Since: Nov 15, 2007
Posts: 51



(Msg. 19) Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:12 am
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On Dec 9, 12:20 am, bbo....RemoveThis@gmail.com wrote:
> On Dec 8, 3:49 am, andrewdoull <andrewdo....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Looking at the Angband variants with the most active forums: it appears Furyband
> > is maybe four times larger, Portralis probably a third smaller...
>
> Portralis? WTF is Portralis? This is the first I've heard of it, and I
> read every post in this newsgroup religiously, even though I mostly
> lurk these days. I should therefore know of every variant with any
> degree of currency.

History repeats itself :

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.angband/browse_frm/...ead/6a4

Cheers,
T.
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Antoine

External


Since: Nov 04, 2007
Posts: 46



(Msg. 20) Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:58 pm
Post subject: Re: : NZ [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Dec 9, 11:59 pm, Nick <nckmccn....RemoveThis@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> On 2007-12-09 11:07:53, andrewdoull <andrewdo....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > It's worthwhile pointing out that I'm in Canberra over Christmas and travelling
> > through Wellington the 18th to the 22nd of February. I may have to organise some
> > kind of Unangband road show / meet up for drinks.
>
> Count me in.
>
> Nick.
> --
> "There is no safety, and there is no end. The word must be heard in silence;
> there must be darkness to see the stars. The dance is always danced above the
> hollow place, above the terrible abyss."
> - The Farthest Shore, Ursula Le Guin

I should be around.

A.
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Sherman Pendley

External


Since: Nov 07, 2007
Posts: 21



(Msg. 21) Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:16 pm
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VALIS <valis.TakeThisOut@oook.cz> writes:

> I don't follow this reasoning. Reading every post in the
> rec.games.roguelike.angband community does not necessarly equate to perfect
> knowledge of every variant.

It does in Neo's little fantasy world.

sherm--

--
WV News, Blogging, and Discussion: http://wv-www.com
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
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andrewdoull

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Since: Oct 29, 2007
Posts: 70



(Msg. 22) Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:49 pm
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On 2007-12-09 18:54:03, R. Dan Henry <danhenry.RemoveThis@inreach.com> wrote:

> Regarding Unangband: I took a look at it in response to some articles
> Andrew has been posting on r.g.r.development. I find the dungeons garish
> and at least the early ones are tedious to move through because rooms
> and corridors are frequently designed so they cannot be run through. I
> have not found any feature that hooks me and makes we want to play the
> game more. Also, while I start the game with a torch equipped, when I
> enter the dungeon, I must still take the action of wielding a torch
> before my surrounding cease to be nothing but gray "x"s.

Both the corridor running and torch items are on my to do list.

The actual intention is that you learn about the | command, which lights or
douses your torch. I intend some kind of tip on this to appear the turn you
enter the dungeon with an unlit torch, for the first time.

Andrew

--
The Roflwtfzomgbbq Quylthulg summons L33t Paladins -more-
"Apple: Celebrating the poisoning of Alan Turing since 1977."
ASCII Dreams: http://roguelikedeveloper.blogspot.com
Unangband: http://unangband.blogspot.com
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VALIS

External


Since: Mar 23, 2005
Posts: 96



(Msg. 23) Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:58 am
Post subject: Re: The power of you [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 2007-12-09 19:16:51, Sherman Pendley <spamtrap.TakeThisOut@dot-app.org> wrote:

> VALIS writes:
>
> > I don't follow this reasoning. Reading every post in the
> > rec.games.roguelike.angband community does not necessarly equate to perfect
> > knowledge of every variant.
>
> It does in Neo's little fantasy world.

Seriously. The entire context of his posts are basically, "I'm ignorant ("I've
never heard that word before") I'm lazy ("You shouldn't use any information that
requires me to google") and I'm stupid ("Here's a statement that shows thinking
errors, and irrational and poorly constructed arguments! I'm going to tell the
world how this is not possible")"

The only bad thing is, that he does it in order to generate the response, out of
boredom or to make himself feel better. Thank science for kill-files.

Now that feeding the troll is out of my system, I won't do it again. Forgive
me.
--
-Campbell

- Join the steamband group by sending an email to
steamband-subscribe.TakeThisOut@Yahoogroups.com !
- Visit the Steamband web page, and follow the progress of Steam! (and view my
art!) http://angband.oook.cz/steamband/
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Arralen

External


Since: Dec 10, 2007
Posts: 2



(Msg. 24) Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:00 am
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On 2007-12-09 18:54:03, R. Dan Henry <danhenry DeleteThis @inreach.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 8 Dec 2007 13:36:16 +0000 (UTC), VALIS wrote:
>
> >Look at successful shareware authors, people who code there own freeware. You
> >don't see the creators of dwarf fortress bitching about whether or not it's
> >worth their time, Nor T. Biskup, nor the author of Fastcrawl. Mostly they are
> >too busy fsking coding and, oh, I don't know, say, giving interviews about their
> >successful software to post online whining about their userbase.
>
> Mr. Biskup requested and received quite a bit of feedback in the form of
> postcards, so I'm not sure he's a good example of a coder not needing
> attention. (He's not bitching about lack of response because he gets
> plenty.)

Actually, AFAIK,
the latest version of ADOM is from 2002, and the last stated date he worked on
JADE is April, 2004 ... . And I haven't heard of any share-/buyware-version of
ADOM, or a game derived from it, therefore commercially it wasn't any success at
all.

Btw., I don't think Mr. Thomas Biskup needs much more feedback, or even income
from ADOM .. he has a (more than?) full-time job:
http://www.quinscape.de/opencms/web/de/unternehmen/impressum.html

What does that mean vs. the current discussion?
Obviously, even a rougelike that makes you receive postcards from Antarctica and
Novosibirsk does not generate enough, if any, income at all ... .

yours
A.
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VALIS

External


Since: Mar 23, 2005
Posts: 96



(Msg. 25) Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:25 am
Post subject: Re: The power of you [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 2007-12-10 09:00:19, Arralen <arralen DeleteThis @gmx.net> wrote:
> Actually, AFAIK,
> the latest version of ADOM is from 2002, and the last stated date he worked on
> JADE is April, 2004 ... . And I haven't heard of any share-/buyware-version of
> ADOM, or a game derived from it, therefore commercially it wasn't any success at
> all.

I just want to point out that there was a pay version of ADOM that contained
some extra helpful code that didn't go into the free version.
--
-Campbell

- Join the steamband group by sending an email to
steamband-subscribe DeleteThis @Yahoogroups.com !
- Visit the Steamband web page, and follow the progress of Steam! (and view my
art!) http://angband.oook.cz/steamband/
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Magnate

External


Since: Dec 11, 2007
Posts: 71



(Msg. 26) Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:09 pm
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"topazg" <graham DeleteThis @blessyou.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fjeg04$2tq0$1@news.vol.cz...
> On 2007-12-08 09:49:48, andrewdoull <andrewdoull DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Gosh, what a truly wonderful opportunity to have a little rant Smile

Very well said Graham.

My own tuppence ha'penny is that I don't actually *want* variant maintainers
to write their games full-time, for a living. I actually want variant
maintainers to be enthusiastic, responsive hobbyists - just like all those
splendid folks we have doing it today. This is not because I'm too mean to
pay a few shekels for a game I like, it's because I don't think the current
economic paradigm allows people to do something like maintain a niche game
whilst earning anything like an acceptable living. In order to earn a
reasonable living coding *band full-time, someone would have to be
ruthlessly commercially focused, go to great lengths to protect their IP,
and enter into a whole lot of payola and spamming (in-game adverts etc.) -
all the things that open source is designed to avoid. I don't want that to
happen to any variant developers, either those whose variants I have tried
or have yet to try.

(There is scope for a wider discussion here about the critical mass for
making a living writing open source code - I'm happy to go there if anyone
wants to discuss it, but I don't think a *band variant, or indeed any niche
game, is going to reach it.)

On a side note, I don't want to sign up to Digg or any of these other
irritating news/syndication/polling meta-services either. I do have my own
blog and I'm quite happy to plug games I like on there (and have already
linked to Un a couple of times, despite having tried it for only about half
an hour) - but that's for purely personal reasons (30% curiosity, 70% ego).
I don't care that its readership is likely to stay in single digits, and I
positively don't want it to become a marketing tool.

CC
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Psi

External


Since: Nov 04, 2007
Posts: 14



(Msg. 27) Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:56 pm
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On 2007-12-09 06:20:12, bbound.TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:

> Portralis? WTF is Portralis? This is the first I've heard of it, and I
> read every post in this newsgroup religiously, even though I mostly
> lurk these days. I should therefore know of every variant with any
> degree of currency.

It was mentioned here: http://angband.oook.cz/rgra.php?showpost=104890
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Igenlode Wordsmith

External


Since: May 24, 2005
Posts: 8



(Msg. 28) Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:40 am
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On 9 Dec 2007 VALIS wrote:

> On 2007-12-09 06:20:12, bbound.TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Dec 8, 3:49 am, andrewdoull wrote:
> > > Looking at the Angband variants with the most active forums: it
> > > appears Furyband is maybe four times larger, Portralis probably a
> > > third smaller...
> >
> > Portralis? WTF is Portralis? This is the first I've heard of it, and I
> > read every post in this newsgroup religiously, even though I mostly
> > lurk these days. I should therefore know of every variant with any
> > degree of currency.
>
> I don't follow this reasoning. Reading every post in the
> rec.games.roguelike.angband community does not necessarily equate to
> perfect knowledge of every variant. I'm curious what makes you think
> that would be the case.

Well, my reaction was exactly the same when I took a look at Oook
recently: 'Never heard of that one, what on earth is it?'

The idea of a variant based off Pern didn't exactly fill me with
enthusiasm to delve further, though; Pern had escaped beyond my concept
of Angband some time before it ceased to be 'Pern' Sad


>
> You remind me of someone. . .
>
The posting style is fairly unmistakable!
--
Igenlode Visit the Ivory Tower http://ivory.150m.com/Tower/

* Usenet: Warning, may contain Nuts *
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twerpinator

External


Since: Dec 11, 2007
Posts: 17



(Msg. 29) Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:50 pm
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On Dec 9, 1:15 pm, Sherman Pendley <spamt....TakeThisOut@dot-app.org> wrote:
[insult deleted]

None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me are at
all true.
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twerpinator

External


Since: Dec 11, 2007
Posts: 17



(Msg. 30) Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:53 pm
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On Dec 9, 1:16 pm, Sherman Pendley <spamt....DeleteThis@dot-app.org> wrote:
[insult deleted]

None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me are at
all true.

I notice that my original point, that a whole variant seems to have
appeared basically without fanfare due to the rgra/forum split, has
gone completely by the wayside here. This event torpedoes the theory
that important announcement-type information won't disappear from the
newsgroup due to the forum.
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