A VERY positive review of 4E

David Trimboli wrote:

>
> So you admit BAB doesn't satisfy any particular "need"?
>
> Why is it so hard for you to believe that some people may find table
> look-ups faster and easier, or at least not necessarily significantly
> slower or harder than BAB? Can't you open your mind just a little?
>

The standard BAB that I will use on a regular basis is one number. ONE.
No table look-up is *ever* going to be that fast. And for me, looking up
tables *is* a pain in the rump. Which is why I have made fun of
Rolemaster for years.

--
Tetsubo
--------------------------------------
"The apparent lesson of the Inquisition is that insistence on
uniformity of belief is fatal to intellectual, moral and spiritual health."
-The Uses Of The Past-, Herbert J. Muller

BLUP
 >> Stay informed about: A VERY positive review of 4E 

David Trimboli wrote:

> Del Rio wrote:
>
>> Tetsubo <tetsubo DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I feel cheated and violated and wronged. That pretty much fits my
>>> definition of "screwed".
>>
>>
>> If 3.X is your baby, I'd use the publication of 4e as an opportunity
>> to stock those closets with discounted 3.X and d20 materials, and
>> count yourself lucky to live amid such abundance.
>
>
> And feel grateful you're not one of us sorry guys who likes the original
> D&D game and looks longingly at $300 copies of Tegel Manor on eBay.
>

I prefer 3.5 but you'll get my copy of Tegel Manor when you pry it from
my cold, dead hands.

--
Tetsubo
--------------------------------------
"The apparent lesson of the Inquisition is that insistence on
uniformity of belief is fatal to intellectual, moral and spiritual health."
-The Uses Of The Past-, Herbert J. Muller

BLUP
 >> Stay informed about: A VERY positive review of 4E 

Tetsubo wrote:
> David Trimboli wrote:
>
>> Del Rio wrote:
>>
>>> Tetsubo <tetsubo RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I feel cheated and violated and wronged. That pretty much fits my
>>>> definition of "screwed".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If 3.X is your baby, I'd use the publication of 4e as an opportunity
>>> to stock those closets with discounted 3.X and d20 materials, and
>>> count yourself lucky to live amid such abundance.
>>
>>
>>
>> And feel grateful you're not one of us sorry guys who likes the
>> original D&D game and looks longingly at $300 copies of Tegel Manor on
>> eBay.
>>
>
> I prefer 3.5 but you'll get my copy of Tegel Manor when you pry it
> from my cold, dead hands.
>

All it takes is one person to scan it in and you can get a copy
yourself.

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
 >> Stay informed about: A VERY positive review of 4E 

On 2008-03-10, David Trimboli <david.TakeThisOut@trimboli.name> wrote:
> Your job is to prove that game-play is faster, not to produce
> tautological loops.

Right.

Here's my proof: We did both of them, and BAB was way faster.

Done!

>>> not due to any real need.

>> There is no "real need" to play roleplaying games at all.

> So you admit BAB doesn't satisfy any particular "need"?

Does it fill a *need*? No.

Is it *useful*? Yes.

> Why is it so hard for you to believe that some people may find table
> look-ups faster and easier, or at least not necessarily significantly
> slower or harder than BAB? Can't you open your mind just a little?

I have a very open mind, but not so open that my brain falls out.

Why can't I believe that some people may find running faster and easier,
or at least not significantly slower or harder, than driving? Because I
have never in my life seen a human clear thirty miles an hour.

Why can't I believe that table-lookups are faster and easier? Because even
the most elementary study of human cognition shows that they are not merely
slower, but DRAMATICALLY slower.

With the possible exception of someone with cripplinging dyscalculia who
can't perform addition, but has an eidetic memory and happens to be extremely
good at table-lookups, BAB will be faster and easier for every human now
alive, and probably for every human who will live within the next century or
so.

--
Copyright 2008, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / usenet-nospam.TakeThisOut@seebs.net
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 >> Stay informed about: A VERY positive review of 4E 

In article <47d56de2$0$15199$607ed4bc@cv.net>,
David Trimboli <david.RemoveThis@trimboli.name> wrote:
>
>Why is it so hard for you to believe that some people may find table
>look-ups faster and easier, or at least not necessarily significantly
>slower or harder than BAB?

Because the first two steps are the same: roll dice and add
bonuses. At this point, if you're using BAB, you ALREADY KNOW
whether you've suceeded, whereas if you're using a table, you
have one more step to perform. It's impossible for that to be
faster, unless table lookup takes negative time in your universe.

>Can't you open your mind just a little?

Not on this one. If you'd just left it at "I like the old
mechanic better" there could have been no arguing with you, but
in defending it this way, you've entered the realm of the
ridiculous.

--
"I know I promised, Lord, never again. But I also know
that YOU know what a weak-willed person I am."
 >> Stay informed about: A VERY positive review of 4E 

Sea Wasp <seawaspObvious DeleteThis @sgeObviousinc.com> wrote:
> Tetsubo wrote:
>> David Trimboli wrote:
>>> Del Rio wrote:
>>>> Tetsubo <tetsubo DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I feel cheated and violated and wronged. That pretty much fits my
>>>>> definition of "screwed".
>>>>
>>>> If 3.X is your baby, I'd use the publication of 4e as an opportunity
>>>> to stock those closets with discounted 3.X and d20 materials, and
>>>> count yourself lucky to live amid such abundance.
>>>
>>> And feel grateful you're not one of us sorry guys who likes the
>>> original D&D game and looks longingly at $300 copies of Tegel Manor on
>>> eBay.
>>
>> I prefer 3.5 but you'll get my copy of Tegel Manor when you pry it
>> from my cold, dead hands.
>
> All it takes is one person to scan it in and you can get a copy
> yourself.

Been done, years ago.


Keith
--
Keith Davies below you, right now: radioactive magma
keith.davies DeleteThis @kjdavies.org above you, right now: hard vacuum
keith.davies DeleteThis @gmail.com probably somewhere near you: a product with
http://www.kjdavies.org/ label warning you it is unsafe if misused
 >> Stay informed about: A VERY positive review of 4E 

Del Rio <delrio.RemoveThis@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <47d56de2$0$15199$607ed4bc@cv.net>,
> David Trimboli <david.RemoveThis@trimboli.name> wrote:
>>
>>Why is it so hard for you to believe that some people may find table
>>look-ups faster and easier, or at least not necessarily significantly
>>slower or harder than BAB?
>
> Because the first two steps are the same: roll dice and add
> bonuses. At this point, if you're using BAB, you ALREADY KNOW
> whether you've suceeded, whereas if you're using a table, you
> have one more step to perform. It's impossible for that to be
> faster, unless table lookup takes negative time in your universe.
>
>>Can't you open your mind just a little?
>
> Not on this one. If you'd just left it at "I like the old
> mechanic better" there could have been no arguing with you, but
> in defending it this way, you've entered the realm of the
> ridiculous.

Also, there are two things involved here, one of which has nothing to do
with the mechanic itself.

"3e has more bonuses. That means there are more numbers to add
together. That means BAB is more work than looking up in a table."

Conditions are true, conclusion is bogus. The 'problem' that slows
things down with 3e isn't the base mechanic (roll and add), but the
content (how *many* get added). If AD&D and 3e had the same number of
modifiers, 3e would necessarily be faster.

That 3e might not be (opinions and experience vary, obviously) it's
because of factors *apart* from the base mechanic.


Keith
--
Keith Davies below you, right now: radioactive magma
keith.davies.RemoveThis@kjdavies.org above you, right now: hard vacuum
keith.davies.RemoveThis@gmail.com probably somewhere near you: a product with
http://www.kjdavies.org/ label warning you it is unsafe if misused
 >> Stay informed about: A VERY positive review of 4E 

Tetsubo wrote:
> Del Rio wrote:
>> Actually it's amusing watching the newsgroup's slow drift from
>> - "This sucks unbearably and beyond all measure!", to - "Well, it
>> still sucks, but this one thing I heard about it
>> is actually kind of cool", to the current state of
>> - "Well, it has some things that are kinda neat, but it still mostly
>> sucks, and I'm not going to play it!"
>>
>> I await the arrival of the next stage
>> - "Well, I guess I'm gonna try playing it, but that doesn't
>> mean I like it!"
>>

Del Rio, you missed out the intermediate stage: "I'm gonna buy the
books, but I won't play it!"

>
> I haven't drifted anywhere. I will more than likely pick up the PHB
> in September (when I next have gaming money). But I won't be running a
> game or playing in one. I own hundreds of gaming books that I read but
> never play. Most of them because I don't think they are worth playing.

See?
 >> Stay informed about: A VERY positive review of 4E 

and thus Tetsubo inscribed ...
> Malachias Invictus wrote:
>> "Tetsubo" <tetsubo.DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>> it's my opinion.
>> Sure. Unless you start with such silliness as "this is not D&D," you
>> will get no argument from me. In fact, you could say "this just does
>> not feel like D&D to me" and you would get no argument.
> I can call a chair a horse. But that isn't going to make it a horse.
> Calling 4E D&D isn't going to make it D&D.

They are both four-legged. Oh, how about one is for an ass, while the other can be an ass?
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk. For here, at the end of all things, we shall do what needs to be done."
--till next time, consul -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>
 >> Stay informed about: A VERY positive review of 4E