A VERY positive review of 4E

Alcore wrote:

> On Feb 28, 2:25 pm, Jim Seymour <nntp... RemoveThis @thentao.com> wrote:
>
>>http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35776
>>
>>--
>>Jim Seymour
>
>
> Ok. I'll try it.
>
> But I'm still not allowing Tieflings and Dragonmen into my game, and I
> want the half-orcs back. (Gnomes will get dug out of the MM on day
> 1.)
>
> Gene P.
> Slidell LA

I plan on picking up the PHB at least. I also have no plan on ever
actually playing 4E. I own lots of games that I read but never play. I
simply can't see a use for 4E. Not to mention I am NOT buying all of
those books AGAIN just to improve Hasbro's bottom line.

4E: The Unwanted.

--
Tetsubo
--------------------------------------
"The apparent lesson of the Inquisition is that insistence on
uniformity of belief is fatal to intellectual, moral and spiritual health."
-The Uses Of The Past-, Herbert J. Muller

BLUP
 >> Stay informed about: A VERY positive review of 4E 

On Feb 28, 4:38 pm, Tetsubo <tets... DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote:
> Alcore wrote:
[snip]
> > Ok.  I'll try it.
>
> > But I'm still not allowing Tieflings and Dragonmen into my game, and I
> > want the half-orcs back.  (Gnomes will get dug out of the MM on day
> > 1.)
>
[snip]
>         I plan on picking up the PHB at least. I also have no plan on ever
> actually playing 4E. I own lots of games that I read but never play. I
> simply can't see a use for 4E. Not to mention I am NOT buying all of
> those books AGAIN just to improve Hasbro's bottom line.
[snip]

In one of the other threads, I was looking over 1st level character
sheets.

?this is an improvement? Looka just (if not more) complicated.

And maybe I'm just a curmudgeon... but 20 HP at first level for a
wizard....

Of course it comes paired with abilities that dish out similar amounts
of damage. My inner statistician is reminding me that the consequence
is just a form of inflation. The only net change is to use bigger
numbers for everything.

There really do seem to be a lot of good ideas... and they are mixed
in with some changes that I find so needless, arbitrary, and
munchkinesque that I want to tear out my hair.

Oh well.

I agree, really. I buy games that I only read and never play all the
time. I'm guessing the 4e might be one of them.

Gene P.
Slidell LA
 >> Stay informed about: A VERY positive review of 4E 

On Feb 28, 9:25 pm, Jim Seymour <nntp....RemoveThis@thentao.com> wrote:
> http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35776
>
> --
> Jim Seymour

"... Is it simpler thatn 3.x? Oh hell yes. But it is elegantly simple.
Intuitive. ..."

Okay. Sounds great. I'd love that.

"...But all the rules work just like every other rule does.
They all make sense. ..."

Yeah...? You said as much, I'm sure there's absolutely no catch.

"...At first glance there are a couple rule changes that will seem
silly. ..."

At first glance...before you've seen the light...?

"...The one that crawled up my craw the first session was the fact
that
diagonal movement counts as just one square. The idea that you
could move faster diagonally than you could straight or side to side
is retarded. But ..."

Sorry to interrupt, but *it's retarded*, full stop.
Not even deserving a second glance.

Using hexes or rulers (like ...ahem... Warhammer)
is simple and non-retarded, and counting diagonals isn't
rocket science either.

LL
 >> Stay informed about: A VERY positive review of 4E 

On Feb 29, 3:05 am, Lorenz.L....DeleteThis@gmx.de wrote:
> On Feb 28, 9:25 pm, Jim Seymour <nntp....DeleteThis@thentao.com> wrote:
>
> "...The one that crawled up my craw the first session was the fact that
> diagonal movement counts as just one square. The idea that you
> could move faster diagonally than you could straight or side to side
> is retarded. But ..."
>
> Sorry to interrupt, but *it's retarded*, full stop.
> Not even deserving a second glance.
>
> Using hexes or rulers (like ...ahem... Warhammer)
> is simple and non-retarded, and counting diagonals isn't
> rocket science either.

While my group does do the "every other equals 2" counting, we all
realize that it's just as simple to count 1.5 for each diagonal. I,
also,
fail to see how that's difficult. And in the scheme of area-of-effect
spells, being able to do diagonals-at-50%-discount can be a huge
advantage towards getting out of the effect---which is NOT balanced
by saying "the monsters can do it too".
 >> Stay informed about: A VERY positive review of 4E 

Alcore wrote:

> And maybe I'm just a curmudgeon... but 20 HP at first level for a
> wizard....

You're not ENOUGH of a curmudgeon. The Arduin Grimoire introduced a
HP system back in 1978, I think, that gave base HP for race and a few
other bonuses, then only increased slowly after that. I had one
character start with 54HP at first level using that system.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
 >> Stay informed about: A VERY positive review of 4E 

On Feb 29, 12:05 am, Lorenz.L... DeleteThis @gmx.de wrote:
> On Feb 28, 9:25 pm, Jim Seymour <nntp... DeleteThis @thentao.com> wrote:
>
> >http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35776
>
> > --
> > Jim Seymour
>
> "... Is it simpler thatn 3.x? Oh hell yes. But it is elegantly simple.
> Intuitive. ..."
>
> Okay. Sounds great. I'd love that.
>
> "...But all the rules work just like every other rule does.
> They all make sense. ..."
>
> Yeah...? You said as much, I'm sure there's absolutely no catch.
>
> "...At first glance there are a couple rule changes that will seem
> silly. ..."
>
> At first glance...before you've seen the light...?
>
> "...The one that crawled up my craw the first session was the fact
> that
> diagonal movement counts as just one square. The idea that you
> could move faster diagonally than you could straight or side to side
> is retarded. But ..."
>
> Sorry to interrupt, but *it's retarded*, full stop.
> Not even deserving a second glance.

It's not a bad idea. It speeds play by warping the field a little.

>
> Using hexes or rulers (like ...ahem... Warhammer)
> is simple and non-retarded, and counting diagonals isn't
> rocket science either.

I too prefer either of those, but it's not a big deal and easily house
ruled either way. I really couldn't care less about it, and am
surprised anyone would be that vehement about it. I'm much more
interested in other changes to the system such as fights lasting on
average 15 rounds.

- Justisaur
 >> Stay informed about: A VERY positive review of 4E 

Sea Wasp wrote:

> Alcore wrote:
>
>> And maybe I'm just a curmudgeon... but 20 HP at first level for a
>> wizard....
>
>
> You're not ENOUGH of a curmudgeon. The Arduin Grimoire introduced a
> HP system back in 1978, I think, that gave base HP for race and a few
> other bonuses, then only increased slowly after that. I had one
> character start with 54HP at first level using that system.
>
>

I think the idea of racial hit dice is interesting. Some races are just
physically tougher than others. It makes sense that an Orc has more HP
than a Halfling. I just don't know how workable it is...

--
Tetsubo
--------------------------------------
"The apparent lesson of the Inquisition is that insistence on
uniformity of belief is fatal to intellectual, moral and spiritual health."
-The Uses Of The Past-, Herbert J. Muller

BLUP
 >> Stay informed about: A VERY positive review of 4E 

"Alcore" <alcore.RemoveThis@uurth.com> wrote in message
news:067feef1-2a48-4664-aa4b-a54721c5f6f8@j28g2000hsj.googlegroups.com...
> Jim Seymour <nntp....RemoveThis@thentao.com> wrote:

>> http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35776

>Ok. I'll try it.

This is like Green Eggs & Ham.

>But I'm still not allowing Tieflings and Dragonmen into my game, and I
>want the half-orcs back. (Gnomes will get dug out of the MM on day
>1.)

I was hoping for Orc/Half Orc play in the Monster Manual.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 >> Stay informed about: A VERY positive review of 4E 

"Justisaur" <justisaur.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:419fb64c-1f45-4c37-81af-a26ab54cc41c@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 29, 12:05 am, Lorenz.L....DeleteThis@gmx.de wrote:

>> "...The one that crawled up my craw the first session was the fact
>> that diagonal movement counts as just one square. The idea that you
>> could move faster diagonally than you could straight or side to side
>> is retarded. But ..."
>>
>> Sorry to interrupt, but *it's retarded*, full stop.
>> Not even deserving a second glance.
>
> It's not a bad idea. It speeds play by warping the field a little.

Exactly.


>> Using hexes or rulers (like ...ahem... Warhammer)
>> is simple and non-retarded, and counting diagonals isn't
>> rocket science either.

> I too prefer either of those, but it's not a big deal and easily house
> ruled either way. I really couldn't care less about it, and am
> surprised anyone would be that vehement about it.

I am not surprised, but sheesh! There are certainly better things to get
bent about.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 >> Stay informed about: A VERY positive review of 4E 

in rec.games.frp.dnd, Jim Seymour <nntp.js.DeleteThis@thentao.com> wrote in
news:47C718C7.3080906@thentao.com:

> http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35776

Part 2:

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35799

This is more about running a game from the DM's persepective.


--
Marcel
 >> Stay informed about: A VERY positive review of 4E 

In article <Xns9A536DED8EF93marcelbeaudoingmailc.RemoveThis@130.133.1.4>,
Marcel Beaudoin <marcel.beaudoin.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:

> in rec.games.frp.dnd, Jim Seymour <nntp.js.RemoveThis@thentao.com> wrote in
> news:47C718C7.3080906@thentao.com:
>
> > http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35776
>
> Part 2:
>
> http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35799
>
> This is more about running a game from the DM's persepective.

Thanks for posting the links!

It wipes away a lot of the BS that's been flying around.

4e is not the logical progression from 3.5. It's a lot of fun, cleaner
to play, but it's a different game.

No flight before level 11.

We see a comparison that level 1-10 in 4e is like 1-6 in 3.5, but you're
really starting at 3.5e-equivalent 3rd, so it's 3-6.

12 level 1 monsters are the same challenge as a level 9 and 4 level 5s?
The power curve is is NOT the same.

From the second link:

"All in all, the game plays and runs very differently than before. It
still has that classic D&D feel, but your focus as a game runner really
is going in new and exciting directions."

If they'd stop pitching the "different but same" line, I think there'd
be fewer people getting angry about the marketing BS.

The DM in the article sings praises about how 4e really recharged his
group. Wow, a new game recharging interest in playing? Who'dathunkit?

"Long under an NDA, my excitement for this new edition has been bubbling
over into something of a churning froth for the better part of four
months now."

I wonder if the NDA's will restrict opinions AFTER the release of the
game.

I'd like something a little more substantial than froth.

- Allen
 >> Stay informed about: A VERY positive review of 4E 

in rec.games.frp.dnd, Allen Wessels <awessels.RemoveThis@EXPUNGEpacbell.net> wrote in
news:awessels-8CDBA1.09390729022008@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net:

> I wonder if the NDA's will restrict opinions AFTER the release of the
> game.
>
> I'd like something a little more substantial than froth.

For as much as it is clear that I am looking very much forward to 4E, I too
would like to start seeing reports from people that have played the game
that include stuff that they didn't like.

Hopefully, the D&D Experience which is going on (which apparantly includes
some 7 hour gaming sessions) provides some things.

--
Marcel
 >> Stay informed about: A VERY positive review of 4E 

In article <Xns9A53873B81112marcelbeaudoingmailc.TakeThisOut@130.133.1.4>,
Marcel Beaudoin <marcel.beaudoin.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:

> in rec.games.frp.dnd, Allen Wessels <awessels.TakeThisOut@EXPUNGEpacbell.net> wrote in
> news:awessels-8CDBA1.09390729022008@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net:
>
> > I wonder if the NDA's will restrict opinions AFTER the release of the
> > game.
> >
> > I'd like something a little more substantial than froth.
>
> For as much as it is clear that I am looking very much forward to 4E, I too
> would like to start seeing reports from people that have played the game
> that include stuff that they didn't like.

I don't need more opinions. What I need is more information about
features, especially ones that have been trimmed down or eliminated.

It's pretty clear no flying before 11th, especially with the tidbit
about a flying carpet being a level 18 item. I'm surprised the digital
gaming table doesn't support the Z axis. It suggests no levitation
either. No shape changing to flying creatures.

20 rounds of (level/10) X d8 +stat modifier +power bonus + (movement
buff/debuff OR status buff/debuff) delivered via Power Source?

Just how long do they think the newness of simpler and different is
going to last?

If this thing flops and they kill off the 3rd party market, I don't even
get a continuing source of ideas I can steal.

- Allen
 >> Stay informed about: A VERY positive review of 4E