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Patrick

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Since: Sep 30, 2005
Posts: 82



(Msg. 31) Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:15 am
Post subject: Re: Does anyone still play wargames? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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JoeC wrote:
> Im not sure what it is. Coud be the interfaces too many choices. I am
> playing at the easiest level just to get to know the game. I still
> have yet to finish a game. I was a big fan of the first three
> versions. I guess, I feel too aloof from the game. I seldom try to
> get into a war in civilization, I like to avoid it and build my
> civilization economically.

That sums up my experience too! In Civilization, war is annoying. I'm
always surprised when I read strategy articles by expert players and
they talk about conquering enemy cities early on, or about nuking the
world and pulling off conquest victories at the end. I can hardly ever
bring myself to fight a war in that game. I almost never start one.
If I have to fight a war, I can do it--but it's not enjoyable. I'd be
happier if everybody just left me alone and let me develop my
civilization and go on to win a space-race victory.

Unfortunately, that seems to only happen on the easier levels. Once
you get up to Noble level (in Civ IV), you have to be prepared to
defend--or even make a pre-emptive attack.

I also get tired of being prompted by the computer all the time. "What
do you want to build?" "Where do you want to move this unit?" "What
do you want to research next?" On and on. After a while I feel the
game is playing me instead of me playing it.

Right now I'm enjoying Heroes of Might & Magic 3 Complete--a game I
just bought for an older computer system. I had HoMM2 years ago and
liked it. HoMM3 is great! And it's all about war and conquest (with
some treasure hunting and other stuff thrown in), so when you build
your cities and economy, you know you're doing it just to support your
military in its effort to dominate the world. Thus there's a nice
focus to the game that appeals to me. Also, the battles are fought out
on a tactical battle screen--very stylized, yet tense and interesting.

Now that I've got HoMM3, I don't bother to play Civ IV anymore.

--Patrick

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JoeC

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Since: Jul 30, 2006
Posts: 16



(Msg. 32) Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:36 am
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Patrick wrote:
> JoeC wrote:
> > Im not sure what it is. Coud be the interfaces too many choices. I am
> > playing at the easiest level just to get to know the game. I still
> > have yet to finish a game. I was a big fan of the first three
> > versions. I guess, I feel too aloof from the game. I seldom try to
> > get into a war in civilization, I like to avoid it and build my
> > civilization economically.
>
> That sums up my experience too! In Civilization, war is annoying. I'm
> always surprised when I read strategy articles by expert players and
> they talk about conquering enemy cities early on, or about nuking the
> world and pulling off conquest victories at the end. I can hardly ever
> bring myself to fight a war in that game. I almost never start one.
> If I have to fight a war, I can do it--but it's not enjoyable. I'd be
> happier if everybody just left me alone and let me develop my
> civilization and go on to win a space-race victory.
>
> Unfortunately, that seems to only happen on the easier levels. Once
> you get up to Noble level (in Civ IV), you have to be prepared to
> defend--or even make a pre-emptive attack.
>
> I also get tired of being prompted by the computer all the time. "What
> do you want to build?" "Where do you want to move this unit?" "What
> do you want to research next?" On and on. After a while I feel the
> game is playing me instead of me playing it.
>
> Right now I'm enjoying Heroes of Might & Magic 3 Complete--a game I
> just bought for an older computer system. I had HoMM2 years ago and
> liked it. HoMM3 is great! And it's all about war and conquest (with
> some treasure hunting and other stuff thrown in), so when you build
> your cities and economy, you know you're doing it just to support your
> military in its effort to dominate the world. Thus there's a nice
> focus to the game that appeals to me. Also, the battles are fought out
> on a tactical battle screen--very stylized, yet tense and interesting.
>
> Now that I've got HoMM3, I don't bother to play Civ IV anymore.
>
> --Patrick

I think we agree. I just want to create my own games based on my
research and experiences in the military.

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Kharsis

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Since: Apr 16, 2004
Posts: 104



(Msg. 33) Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 7:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Does anyone still play wargames? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Patrick wrote:
> JoeC wrote:
>
>>Im not sure what it is. Coud be the interfaces too many choices. I am
>>playing at the easiest level just to get to know the game. I still
>>have yet to finish a game. I was a big fan of the first three
>>versions. I guess, I feel too aloof from the game. I seldom try to
>>get into a war in civilization, I like to avoid it and build my
>>civilization economically.
>
>
> That sums up my experience too! In Civilization, war is annoying. I'm
> always surprised when I read strategy articles by expert players and
> they talk about conquering enemy cities early on, or about nuking the
> world and pulling off conquest victories at the end. I can hardly ever
> bring myself to fight a war in that game. I almost never start one.
> If I have to fight a war, I can do it--but it's not enjoyable. I'd be
> happier if everybody just left me alone and let me develop my
> civilization and go on to win a space-race victory.
>
> Unfortunately, that seems to only happen on the easier levels. Once
> you get up to Noble level (in Civ IV), you have to be prepared to
> defend--or even make a pre-emptive attack.
>
> I also get tired of being prompted by the computer all the time. "What
> do you want to build?" "Where do you want to move this unit?" "What
> do you want to research next?" On and on. After a while I feel the
> game is playing me instead of me playing it.
>
> Right now I'm enjoying Heroes of Might & Magic 3 Complete--a game I
> just bought for an older computer system. I had HoMM2 years ago and
> liked it. HoMM3 is great! And it's all about war and conquest (with
> some treasure hunting and other stuff thrown in), so when you build
> your cities and economy, you know you're doing it just to support your
> military in its effort to dominate the world. Thus there's a nice
> focus to the game that appeals to me. Also, the battles are fought out
> on a tactical battle screen--very stylized, yet tense and interesting.
>
> Now that I've got HoMM3, I don't bother to play Civ IV anymore.
>
> --Patrick
>
If you enjoy HOMM 3 then Get HOMM 4 - your heroes can now move and fight
during combat other than just casting spells.

Kharsis
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JoeC

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Since: Jul 30, 2006
Posts: 16



(Msg. 34) Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:36 am
Post subject: Re: Does anyone still play wargames? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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> Now that I've got HoMM3, I don't bother to play Civ IV anymore.
>
> --Patrick

If you don't mind, I have some ideas for my civilization game. Here is
a great book I read that is the source of many of my ideas:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0313276455/sr=8-1/qid=1154883850/ref=...1_1/002

I realy like the premise of Civilization but I agree with you that the
latest game plays us and discourages war.

I am not one make criticizms with no suggestions. To start, I don't
like the idea of ancient "uits'. Until modern times countries raised a
single army each country or countries would pool their resources and it
would result in a single combat or series of sieges until the weaker
country could defeat the larger one. There is a also the question of
logistics that this realy goes into. Saying that an Ox yoke was more
of a combat factor than some weapons. That is because armies could
carry their supplys more efficiently. In Civilization you can station
an army in the desert or the arctic. for centuries and they surviuve.
Logistics is how far can you move an army and how long can you leave
them in the field. Many armies lived off the territory they went
through causing far more devistation that the actual fighting. See the
30 years war and Gustavus Adolfus who moved his army more of the goal
to survive.

I would have natural disaters that have been critical turning points in
civilizations the Eruption of Thera in 1200 BC. Civil wars where bad
governace leads to fighting your own units. One thing I liked about an
older version of Civilization is that under certian government if you
lost a war they would make you end the war.

One fustration I have with the game is that it exclued the resource tin
because it was very expenisve and was traded and explored for
extensivly in the ancient world. From 1200 to 800BC was the
introduction of iron. It is somwhat better of a metal but it is
cheeper to work and more pleantiful. In that there was enough weapons
to go around so you can have much larger well equiped armies and you
can have a single greek city be able to field an efective army.

The basis of my game is that you have a general population. As your
civilization progresses, you get surplus population. That population
can allocated to various activities. They could be profetional
military class, researchers scribes, merchants crafts man and so on.
In a defensive war or shor campaigns you can allocate more of your
population to war but they will be lesser trained and equiped
auxiliries. You can also have the posibility of nomadic civiliztions
with their certian streinghts and weaknesses. I would also take the
type of governmet out of direct control of the player but allow them to
have indirect control over it. For example you a dictatorship if you
allocate too many people to the military and to gain points you have to
go to war which if you loose can result in civil war for example.
Another thing is that conquered cities reatin their identity after
being captured and are more apt to rebel in civil war.

I would change the way each advancement was researced. I would also
take that out of the control of the player. Your advancements would be
generated by the computer but if you allocate your people to research
or priests of the army would make it more likely that you will accuire
those skills and also you will be more likely to accuire the skills of
your neighabors.

This is a rough outline for a vision I have for a game. I have taken
from civilization that book Sumer to Rome and the civilization board
game with is a great deal of fun. The goal realy is to make it more
faithful to history as I have studdied it. I also think it would be
fun. There is a proscess for devloping games and designing the system,
graphics and interfaces but as long as the player or players understand
what is going on the graphics and interfaces are doing their jobs.
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CarpeCerevisi

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Since: Apr 16, 2006
Posts: 1



(Msg. 35) Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:55 am
Post subject: Re: Does anyone still play wargames? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Just my tuppence-worth. I'm rather a fan of Age of Wonders's battle
system, taking into account terrain far more effectively (imho) than
Heroes, with a less "cartoon" feel. Been a while since I've played it,
but it was old and re-released (Xplosive games iirc) when I bought it a
few years ago, but I still find it plays better than Heroes 3 (haven't
seen 4)

Patrick wrote:
> JoeC wrote:
>> Im not sure what it is. Coud be the interfaces too many choices. I am
>> playing at the easiest level just to get to know the game. I still
>> have yet to finish a game. I was a big fan of the first three
>> versions. I guess, I feel too aloof from the game. I seldom try to
>> get into a war in civilization, I like to avoid it and build my
>> civilization economically.
>
> That sums up my experience too! In Civilization, war is annoying. I'm
> always surprised when I read strategy articles by expert players and
> they talk about conquering enemy cities early on, or about nuking the
> world and pulling off conquest victories at the end. I can hardly ever
> bring myself to fight a war in that game. I almost never start one.
> If I have to fight a war, I can do it--but it's not enjoyable. I'd be
> happier if everybody just left me alone and let me develop my
> civilization and go on to win a space-race victory.
>
> Unfortunately, that seems to only happen on the easier levels. Once
> you get up to Noble level (in Civ IV), you have to be prepared to
> defend--or even make a pre-emptive attack.
>
> I also get tired of being prompted by the computer all the time. "What
> do you want to build?" "Where do you want to move this unit?" "What
> do you want to research next?" On and on. After a while I feel the
> game is playing me instead of me playing it.
>
> Right now I'm enjoying Heroes of Might & Magic 3 Complete--a game I
> just bought for an older computer system. I had HoMM2 years ago and
> liked it. HoMM3 is great! And it's all about war and conquest (with
> some treasure hunting and other stuff thrown in), so when you build
> your cities and economy, you know you're doing it just to support your
> military in its effort to dominate the world. Thus there's a nice
> focus to the game that appeals to me. Also, the battles are fought out
> on a tactical battle screen--very stylized, yet tense and interesting.
>
> Now that I've got HoMM3, I don't bother to play Civ IV anymore.
>
> --Patrick
>
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Patrick

External


Since: Sep 30, 2005
Posts: 82



(Msg. 36) Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:25 am
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CarpeCerevisi wrote:
> Just my tuppence-worth. I'm rather a fan of Age of Wonders's battle
> system, taking into account terrain far more effectively (imho) than
> Heroes, with a less "cartoon" feel. Been a while since I've played it,
> but it was old and re-released (Xplosive games iirc) when I bought it a
> few years ago, but I still find it plays better than Heroes 3 (haven't
> seen 4)

I've played AoW (three versions of it, the latest I'm aware of being
called Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic).

It's a good game. But for my taste, the battles tend to be too long
and drawn out--especially the big sieges (which happen pretty
frequently). I was always tempted to click the quick-resolution button
and let the computer work out the tactical battle details.

Years ago, this was also a problem in Master of Orion. The tactical
battles were often way too long.

In Heroes of Might & Magic 3, the battles are so stylized and the maps
so small that even the biggest engagement plays reasonably quickly. I
like that.

If I wanted realism, I'd still be playing hardcore wargames. But after
doing that for many years, I finally realized I wasn't getting as much
realism as I wanted anyway (because a game necessarily abstracts war
and usually distorts some elements for the sake of making a good,
playable contest of it). And besides, what I really wanted was a good,
fun exercise in strategy & tactics--and I can get that even from a
silly fantasy game like Heroes 3.

Also pretty good is Battle of Wesnoth ( http://www.wesnoth.org ). It's
a free download that plays a lot like the old SSI game Fantasy General.
My only complaint is that it eventually beats me even on Easy level.

For wargamers, People's Tactics ( http://www.peoplestactics.com ) might
be a better game to download. Haven't tried this one yet, but it looks
promising.

--Patrick
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Patrick

External


Since: Sep 30, 2005
Posts: 82



(Msg. 37) Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:00 pm
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Dav Vandenbroucke wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 08:32:15 +1200, Kharsis <kharsis DeleteThis @ihug.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
> >Total War is a good game if you like using tactics.
>
> There are wargamers who don't like using tactics? There are wargames
> that don't require them?

I think there are wargame(r)s that are more strategy oriented, and
those that are more tactics oriented.

Sometimes it's just a matter of scale: e.g., a game that covers all of
WWII on a map of the world is unlikely to portray much of the
nitty-gritty infighting of tactical engagements. Of course there are
still game tactics involved in the play, but that's true of any game.

When it comes to game tactics, it's hard to tell where to draw the
line. Some say chess is a mostly tactical game (with some strategy),
while go is a mostly strategic game (with some tactics).

I suspect Kharsis is saying that Rome: Total War does a good job of
presenting military tactics in game form.

To me, that's an aspect of what's often called "realism" in wargames
(i.e., how well the game simulates war). Years ago, realism meant
everything to me in wargaming; now it doesn't mean as much anymore.
I'm happy to do without a lot of realism for the sake of a game that's
more fun to play.

I browsed through the screen shots of Rome: Total War a while back, and
it all looked *too* realistic to me. I don' t want a game that puts me
right there on the battlefield; I just want one that lets me try my
hand at exercising strategy & tactics while also indulging in a little
make-believe.

Btw, another very good computer strategy game, which I forgot to
mention last time, is Lost Admiral Returns. It's a remake of an old
game, and the graphics and interface are way outdated--but the gaming
challenge is superb! For a look-see, go to:
http://www.lostadmiralreturns.com

--Patrick
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Dav Vandenbroucke

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Since: Jun 12, 2005
Posts: 46



(Msg. 38) Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:31 pm
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On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 08:32:15 +1200, Kharsis <kharsis.DeleteThis@ihug.co.nz>
wrote:

>Total War is a good game if you like using tactics.

There are wargamers who don't like using tactics? There are wargames
that don't require them?

Dav Vandenbroucke
davanden at cox dot net
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JoeC

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Since: Jul 30, 2006
Posts: 16



(Msg. 39) Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:58 am
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hoover RemoveThis @aol.com wrote:
> Uh oh. Is that a good exclamation or bad? <GRIN>
>
>
> "JoeC" <enki034 RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1154716418.388879.19240@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> >I am going to your web site!
> >
good.
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JoeC

External


Since: Jul 30, 2006
Posts: 16



(Msg. 40) Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:59 am
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hoover.DeleteThis@aol.com wrote:
> Uh oh. Is that a good exclamation or bad? <GRIN>
>
>
> "JoeC" <enki034.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1154716418.388879.19240@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> >I am going to your web site!
> >
Link doen't work.
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JoeC

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Since: Jul 30, 2006
Posts: 16



(Msg. 41) Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:15 am
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> Can you briefly describe the differnece between stategy and tactics. I
> know there is a difference, and I vaguely know what it is, but I'm not
> entirely sure where to draw the line.
>
> Loz

Yes, according to Clauswitz the Author of Von Kreig, Strategy is the
goal of your campaign and the tactics are the steps used to acheave the
strategy.

Strategy: conquer your neighabor, tactic frontal assault or tactic
manuver around their force.
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darksan

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Since: Aug 15, 2006
Posts: 2



(Msg. 42) Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:16 am
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Enki,

You need to learn some of the Play-By-E-Mail (PBEM) programs like Aide
De Camp 2 (ADC2), CyberBoard (CB), and VASSAL. There are a lot of
wargamers about and quite a bit of wargaming goes on using E-Mail. You
also need to use the Internet to find your wargaming opponent.

Internet places to go.
Web-Grognards: The site for wargames on the Web since 1995
http://www.grognard.com
ConsimWorld: Confilict Simulation Gaming News and Discussion
http://www.consim.com

Web-Grognards has some listings for other wargamers that have a
particular interest, variant, errata and other links for wargames, and
much more.
ConsimWorld is basically a chat forum with lots of folders, some for
individual game, some game series and other topics that relate (or not)
to wargaming

PBEM programs
ADC2: The Universal Boardgame Conversion and PBEM Assistance Utility
http://www.hpssims.com
CyberBoard: PBEM Boardgaming System for Windows
http://cyberboard.brainiac.com/
VASSAL: a game engine for building and playing online adaptations of
board games and card games
http://www.vassalengine.org

I am currently playing Avalon Hill's Luftwaffe using CyberBoard, may
soon start Avalon Hill's Flat Top using one of the three PBEM programs
above. ADC2 and CB are specifically for PBEm while VASSAL is mainly for
on-line playing. All three are well supported and many games
modules/gameboxes are available.

Skip Franklin

enki wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> <snip>
> I am hard
> pressed to find any people who are interested in personal getting
> together over a board or table and spending time playing games.
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Kharsis

External


Since: Apr 16, 2004
Posts: 104



(Msg. 43) Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:32 am
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Patrick wrote:
> CarpeCerevisi wrote:
>
>>Just my tuppence-worth. I'm rather a fan of Age of Wonders's battle
>>system, taking into account terrain far more effectively (imho) than
>>Heroes, with a less "cartoon" feel. Been a while since I've played it,
>>but it was old and re-released (Xplosive games iirc) when I bought it a
>>few years ago, but I still find it plays better than Heroes 3 (haven't
>>seen 4)
>
>
> I've played AoW (three versions of it, the latest I'm aware of being
> called Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic).
>
> It's a good game. But for my taste, the battles tend to be too long
> and drawn out--especially the big sieges (which happen pretty
> frequently). I was always tempted to click the quick-resolution button
> and let the computer work out the tactical battle details.
>
> Years ago, this was also a problem in Master of Orion. The tactical
> battles were often way too long.
>
> In Heroes of Might & Magic 3, the battles are so stylized and the maps
> so small that even the biggest engagement plays reasonably quickly. I
> like that.
>
> If I wanted realism, I'd still be playing hardcore wargames. But after
> doing that for many years, I finally realized I wasn't getting as much
> realism as I wanted anyway (because a game necessarily abstracts war
> and usually distorts some elements for the sake of making a good,
> playable contest of it). And besides, what I really wanted was a good,
> fun exercise in strategy & tactics--and I can get that even from a
> silly fantasy game like Heroes 3.
>
> Also pretty good is Battle of Wesnoth ( http://www.wesnoth.org ). It's
> a free download that plays a lot like the old SSI game Fantasy General.
> My only complaint is that it eventually beats me even on Easy level.
>
> For wargamers, People's Tactics ( http://www.peoplestactics.com ) might
> be a better game to download. Haven't tried this one yet, but it looks
> promising.
>
> --Patrick
>
Total War is a good game if you like using tactics. Terrain plays a big
part and unit quality comes into play.

I have yet to play Total War: Rome although I own it. It is supposed to
be the bestso far.

Kharsis
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Loz Hensel

External


Since: May 21, 2005
Posts: 8



(Msg. 44) Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:55 am
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On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:00:04 -0700, Patrick wrote:

>
> Dav Vandenbroucke wrote:
>> On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 08:32:15 +1200, Kharsis <kharsis RemoveThis @ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>>
>> >Total War is a good game if you like using tactics.
>>
>> There are wargamers who don't like using tactics?
>> There are wargames that don't require them?

I've played games of Warhamer 40K that involved no tactics or stategy,
just a lot of dice, and games of DBA that didn't even involve that!

>
> I think there are wargame(r)s that are more strategy oriented, and those
> that are more tactics oriented.
>
Can you briefly describe the differnece between stategy and tactics. I
know there is a difference, and I vaguely know what it is, but I'm not
entirely sure where to draw the line.

Loz
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JoeC

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Since: Jul 30, 2006
Posts: 16



(Msg. 45) Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:49 am
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>
> Skip Franklin
>
> enki wrote:
> > Hi there,
> >
> > <snip>
> > I am hard
> > pressed to find any people who are interested in personal getting
> > together over a board or table and spending time playing games.

Sounds like fun but I have taken to writing my own computer games.
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Avalon Hill and SPI games for sale - I have a large quantity of games and magazines for sale. I am based in Bath. No reasonable offers refused.

Avalon Hill and SPI games for sale - I have a large quantity of games and magazines for sale. I am based in Bath. No reasonable offers refused.

FA: MILITARY HISTORY BOOK LOTS! - Just a brief note about some items of interest currently being auctioned on Ebay, specifically: MILITARY HISTORY BOOKS in LOTS (both softcover and hardcover books) covering all aspects of warfare from samurais, to siege to World War II right up to..

Axis & Allies Iron blitz - Can anyone post Iron Blitz

Warmachine/Hordes Tournament in Toowoomba QLD 23rd of April - Ogre’s Bash III Official Warmachine Steamroller Tournament Ogre's Den Games is sponsoring an Official Warmachine Tournament event in association with the local Press Ganger Jeff Bool and Privateer Press. When: 23rd April 2006 from 10:30am to 4:30pm..
   Game Forums (Home) -> War Games All times are: Ekaterinburg, Islamabad, Karachi, Tashkent (change)
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