Does anyone still play wargames?

hoover.TakeThisOut@aol.com wrote:
> If you don't want to play wargames that's okay.
>
> What bummed me out was guys that told newbie's its impossible to play non pC
> games cause of time and complexity. . . .

Yeah, I hear ya. That's pretty silly, isn't it? People played non-PC
wargames for years before the PC ever came along. So it's obviously
possible.

And there are some things that board wargames and miniatures do that
computer games don't. For one thing, they lend more of a hands-on feel
to the game. You have to pick up the pieces and move 'em, calculate
the odds, refresh your memory of the rules, and so forth. Some people
call that drudgery, but I often miss it when I'm playing computer
games. That "drudgery" gives me the feeling I'm doing something real,
not just "virtual."

--Patrick
 >> Stay informed about: Does anyone still play wargames? 

hoover DeleteThis @aol.com wrote:
> If you don't want to play wargames that's okay.
>
> What bummed me out was guys that told newbie's its impossible to play non pC
> games cause of time and complexity. . . .

Yeah, I hear ya. That's pretty silly, isn't it? I mean, people played
non-PC wargames for years before the PC ever came along. Obviously
it's possible.

And board wargames and miniatures provide a whole different feel to
gaming. You have to pick up the pieces and move 'em, calculate odds,
refresh your memory of the rules, and so forth. Some call that
drudgery, but that "drudgery" is a big part of what makes you feel
you're doing something real, not just something "virtual."

--Patrick
 >> Stay informed about: Does anyone still play wargames? 

If you don't want to play wargames that's okay.

What bummed me out was guys that told newbie's its impossible to play non pC
games cause of time and complexity. It happens allot and kills of the non PC
side of things.

I try PC games here and there. I hate em. They aren't anywhere near as
interesting as the old wargames. PC are quirky and constantly need expensive
upgrades, patches, configuration tweaking de-bugging. Pc tech support is
worse then ever. Nothing standardized. You might have to trouble shoot your
PC then you game. Its all a huge pain. Time and effort wasn't ever so bad.
If you had the room for your game you could leave it up. I guarantee those
who claim they aren't wasting time on setup of the board waste the same time
on the PC in other ways before a game starts.

Whatever a person prefernce is is cool. Its just to bad this whole Time
complexity thing has killed off everything. The whole PC kick got that
started and it was never really true.
 >> Stay informed about: Does anyone still play wargames? 

hoover RemoveThis @aol.com wrote:
> If you don't want to play wargames that's okay.
>
> What bummed me out was guys that told newbie's its impossible to play non pC
> games cause of time and complexity. It happens allot and kills of the non PC
> side of things.
>
> I try PC games here and there. I hate em. They aren't anywhere near as
> interesting as the old wargames. PC are quirky and constantly need expensive
> upgrades, patches, configuration tweaking de-bugging. Pc tech support is
> worse then ever. Nothing standardized. You might have to trouble shoot your
> PC then you game. Its all a huge pain. Time and effort wasn't ever so bad.
> If you had the room for your game you could leave it up. I guarantee those
> who claim they aren't wasting time on setup of the board waste the same time
> on the PC in other ways before a game starts.
>
> Whatever a person prefernce is is cool. Its just to bad this whole Time
> complexity thing has killed off everything. The whole PC kick got that
> started and it was never really true.

I have yet to finish playing the new civilization 4 game because of
crashes. The game is intersting but realy not much fun. There were
some good computer games I have yet to see anything that realy find
intersting. Avalon Hill had some realy simole but addictive games for
the TI99 and Amiga. I just had the wrong platform so I missed out on
many games but the games that were availabe for my system were great.
There can be good computer games I realize that the AI for an opponent
is the most dificult part. Either the computer is stronger or has more
knowlege.

Most people want to follow a story or blow stuff up. It may have
somthing to do with our culture that is being dumbed down. I could be
that current conflicts make war gamming less appealing. The wargamming
hayday was in the aftermath of Veitnam. I have watched social
evoultion back to the early 70s as far as my memory goes back. Being
in the military, I am pretty insulated from most social opinion.
 >> Stay informed about: Does anyone still play wargames? 

Patrick wrote:
> hoover RemoveThis @aol.com wrote:
> > If you don't want to play wargames that's okay.
> >
> > What bummed me out was guys that told newbie's its impossible to play non pC
> > games cause of time and complexity. . . .
>
> Yeah, I hear ya. That's pretty silly, isn't it? People played non-PC
> wargames for years before the PC ever came along. So it's obviously
> possible.
>
> And there are some things that board wargames and miniatures do that
> computer games don't. For one thing, they lend more of a hands-on feel
> to the game. You have to pick up the pieces and move 'em, calculate
> the odds, refresh your memory of the rules, and so forth. Some people
> call that drudgery, but I often miss it when I'm playing computer
> games. That "drudgery" gives me the feeling I'm doing something real,
> not just "virtual."
>
> --Patrick

I can realate to you. That drudgery cam be poor game design. There is
always a ballance between realism and playability. There are certian
abstractions that can be clumsly but the basic skills of reading
counting and basic math are good skills for the rest of your life. I
do rember the work it takes to play a game but all that work gets lost
in the enjoyment of the game and a game like ASL where digging into the
rules was the path to victory. I have many fond memories of playing
ASL and Civilization. I have played other games but I had limited
experience.

Go back and play simpler smaller games and allow the enthuisam to
rebuild. To me winning was not the objective but playing ever more
comples rules and larger games. Playing games is a social experience
and the best times I have had is playing in public places. People
would pool their resources to play minitures or have a place to
actually set up these huge games. Rember these are games and ment for
fun. I had great times playing 6-8 hour of civilization while on
deployment.
 >> Stay informed about: Does anyone still play wargames? 

s also turned on to military history via wargaming, and I even had
> a little bit of military experience myself years ago. The more I
> learned about real war, the more ridiculous wargames seemed to me.
> Even the best ones start to look like speculative abstractions. To
> enjoy a wargame, I have to switch on my "suspension of disbelief," just
> as I do when reading fiction or watching a movie. Then it can be fun.
> Otherwise I find myself shaking my head all the time, thinking, "That's
> not right; that's not it at all."

You have a point. ASL is pretty good and reflects small unit action on
a board. Somthing like Planzerblitz is more abstract and is more
sanitary. The higher level you go the more abstract you get. I came
up with a game concept while deployed to the middleeast watching the
army operate all around me. I admit that I have never been under fire
but have prepared to defend my positions.

War is both simpler and more complicated than it is portrayed to be,.
Mostly it is a lot of work and being boored. Tactics are realy pretty
simple but it tough trying to get 10 guys to work together. The huge
psycoligical trauma of being shot at directly. Mostly forcing people
to keep their heads down.

Agin my interest in war is logistics and intelligence. War is very
confusing and you only know what is in front of you. I once read that
military science it getting men to move like blocks and wargamming is
blocks to move like men.

>
> And because I have to do that in order to enjoy wargames, I often take
> one more step and just play non-wargames instead--computer strategy
> games like Heroes of Might & Magic, for instance, or Civilization.
> They're ludicrous, but they're challenging and can be fun to play. For
> real history, I find that books work much better than games.
>
> --Patrick

Have your ever hear of Harry Turtle dove?
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=br_ss_hs/002-5161914-6200044?platform=guru...url=ind

Why play war games? Why refight old battles? To see if we can do a
better job than the originial leaders. Is there a way that Germany
could have won the war or could the aztecs have repulsed the Spanish?
This auther does a realy good job at creating alternate worlds if a few
things heppened different in history.

Still some of my favorite games were ASL, 3Reich, GDW WWIII series and
Civilization. I have seen other games but never had the opertunity to
play them. Many complex games take a serious investment in time to
learn and then to play then play with any skill.
 >> Stay informed about: Does anyone still play wargames? 

I am going to your web site!
 >> Stay informed about: Does anyone still play wargames? 

JoeC wrote:
> hoover.RemoveThis@aol.com wrote:
> I have yet to finish playing the new civilization 4 game because of
> crashes. The game is intersting but realy not much fun. . . .

I've played every version of Civilization, and even though I've spent
many hours at it, I have to agree that it's "really not much fun." The
new version, Civ IV, is by far the best; a lot of improvements have
been made, and one of the best things is that the game can now be much
shorter than before. Still, it somehow falls flat. Maybe it's just
that an old wargamer like me wants to play games about war, and war is
optional in Civ IV.

Luckily, it hasn't crashed on my system. But it won't play movies
(probably due to an older video card).

I'm surprised that Civ has become such a hugely popular game. Maybe
it's because it's not just a wargame, so it appeals to a wider range of
people.

--Patrick
 >> Stay informed about: Does anyone still play wargames? 

Patrick wrote:
> JoeC wrote:
> > hoover.DeleteThis@aol.com wrote:
> > I have yet to finish playing the new civilization 4 game because of
> > crashes. The game is intersting but realy not much fun. . . .
>
> I've played every version of Civilization, and even though I've spent
> many hours at it, I have to agree that it's "really not much fun." The
> new version, Civ IV, is by far the best; a lot of improvements have
> been made, and one of the best things is that the game can now be much
> shorter than before. Still, it somehow falls flat. Maybe it's just
> that an old wargamer like me wants to play games about war, and war is
> optional in Civ IV.
>
> Luckily, it hasn't crashed on my system. But it won't play movies
> (probably due to an older video card).
>
> I'm surprised that Civ has become such a hugely popular game. Maybe
> it's because it's not just a wargame, so it appeals to a wider range of
> people.
>
> --Patrick

Im not sure what it is. Coud be the interfaces too many choices. I am
playing at the easiest level just to get to know the game. I still
have yet to finish a game. I was a big fan of the first three
versions. I guess, I feel too aloof from the game. I seldom try to
get into a war in civilization, I like to avoid it and build my
civilization economically.
 >> Stay informed about: Does anyone still play wargames? 

Uh oh. Is that a good exclamation or bad? <GRIN>


"JoeC" <enki034.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1154716418.388879.19240@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>I am going to your web site!
>
 >> Stay informed about: Does anyone still play wargames? 

I concur, that allot of what is considered complex is just simply poorly
designed rules. Allot of the tedium of non PC can be eliminated through
better rules. More can be eliminated with simple planning. I don't want to
sound like Mr. smarty pants and all others are dumb or anything but it
always amazed me how many guys never took a few easy steps to make the games
flow faster. Some examples

Setup prior to play

All charts photocopied and enlarged for easy viewing by players without
flipping through books.

A Judge or Ref (I understand this can be hard as allot don't want to waste
there game time not being a player but if you alternate its all fair and
helps greatly)

The Pc I find is better used as a tool to assist in non PC games. A large
variety of good programs have been written to do this. they range from Dice
rolling programs to Army list organizer and programs that assist in
campaigns. I have even seen some that have hit results and damage reports.
Many guys are working on fully automating a set of rules. These make things
go much faster.

Board games were reported in many game magazines as making a comeback. I
wote about this at my webstite http://battlegroupllc.com. Many people are
tired of expensive computing and the hazards of the internet. They long for
the face to face social interaction. I have always found though, the biggest
detriment to wargamers is themselves. The time and complexity thing kills it
off. SO many are convinced it has to be that way and certainly doesn't.



"JoeC" <enki034.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1154711767.937872.213900@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>s also turned on to military history via wargaming, and I even had
>> a little bit of military experience myself years ago. The more I
>> learned about real war, the more ridiculous wargames seemed to me.
>> Even the best ones start to look like speculative abstractions. To
>> enjoy a wargame, I have to switch on my "suspension of disbelief," just
>> as I do when reading fiction or watching a movie. Then it can be fun.
>> Otherwise I find myself shaking my head all the time, thinking, "That's
>> not right; that's not it at all."
>
> You have a point. ASL is pretty good and reflects small unit action on
> a board. Somthing like Planzerblitz is more abstract and is more
> sanitary. The higher level you go the more abstract you get. I came
> up with a game concept while deployed to the middleeast watching the
> army operate all around me. I admit that I have never been under fire
> but have prepared to defend my positions.
>
> War is both simpler and more complicated than it is portrayed to be,.
> Mostly it is a lot of work and being boored. Tactics are realy pretty
> simple but it tough trying to get 10 guys to work together. The huge
> psycoligical trauma of being shot at directly. Mostly forcing people
> to keep their heads down.
>
> Agin my interest in war is logistics and intelligence. War is very
> confusing and you only know what is in front of you. I once read that
> military science it getting men to move like blocks and wargamming is
> blocks to move like men.
>
>>
>> And because I have to do that in order to enjoy wargames, I often take
>> one more step and just play non-wargames instead--computer strategy
>> games like Heroes of Might & Magic, for instance, or Civilization.
>> They're ludicrous, but they're challenging and can be fun to play. For
>> real history, I find that books work much better than games.
>>
>> --Patrick
>
> Have your ever hear of Harry Turtle dove?
> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=br_ss_hs/002-5161914-6200044?platform=guru...url=ind
>
> Why play war games? Why refight old battles? To see if we can do a
> better job than the originial leaders. Is there a way that Germany
> could have won the war or could the aztecs have repulsed the Spanish?
> This auther does a realy good job at creating alternate worlds if a few
> things heppened different in history.
>
> Still some of my favorite games were ASL, 3Reich, GDW WWIII series and
> Civilization. I have seen other games but never had the opertunity to
> play them. Many complex games take a serious investment in time to
> learn and then to play then play with any skill.
>
 >> Stay informed about: Does anyone still play wargames? 

Chuang Shyue Chou wrote:
> "JoeC" <enki034.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > Im not sure what it is. Coud be the interfaces too many choices. I am
> > playing at the easiest level just to get to know the game. I still
> > have yet to finish a game. I was a big fan of the first three
> > versions. I guess, I feel too aloof from the game. I seldom try to
> > get into a war in civilization, I like to avoid it and build my
> > civilization economically.
>
>
> What of the Civ IV expansion? Warlords? Does that add anything?

Don't know, I have not seen the expansion.
 >> Stay informed about: Does anyone still play wargames? 

"JoeC" <enki034.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> Im not sure what it is. Coud be the interfaces too many choices. I am
> playing at the easiest level just to get to know the game. I still
> have yet to finish a game. I was a big fan of the first three
> versions. I guess, I feel too aloof from the game. I seldom try to
> get into a war in civilization, I like to avoid it and build my
> civilization economically.


What of the Civ IV expansion? Warlords? Does that add anything?
 >> Stay informed about: Does anyone still play wargames?