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Yet another option for fuel storage

 
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forkliftramp.com

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Since: Apr 11, 2005
Posts: 165



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 8:55 pm
Post subject: Yet another option for fuel storage
Archived from groups: rec>games>frp>gurps (more info?)

well since no one seems to like the idea of sorting the d and t from
basic h2 and grossly increasing ship ranges/endurance how bout another
idea.
rather than storing h2 as a liquid which is really very bulky why not
jack up the pressure in the tanks and store it as a solid. thaw what
you need as you need it cause liquid is so much easier to handle but
the solid h2 is again literally 99% less volume than liquid h2. your
tanks need to be stronger and you need some extra equipment but you
gain a huge amount of internal volume. even for commercial ships the
cost bennies should be dramatically in favour of this approach. after
all if you can increase the amount of cargo space on a ship at was
making money by 15% you are going to be rolling in dough.
show a military designer how to gain 35% or more of a ship's internal
volume and he'll probably offer to bear your children on the spot.

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Michael W. Ryder

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Since: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 286



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 4:55 am
Post subject: Re: Yet another option for fuel storage [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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forkliftramp.com wrote:
> well since no one seems to like the idea of sorting the d and t from
> basic h2 and grossly increasing ship ranges/endurance how bout another
> idea.
> rather than storing h2 as a liquid which is really very bulky why not
> jack up the pressure in the tanks and store it as a solid. thaw what
> you need as you need it cause liquid is so much easier to handle but
> the solid h2 is again literally 99% less volume than liquid h2. your
> tanks need to be stronger and you need some extra equipment but you
> gain a huge amount of internal volume. even for commercial ships the
> cost bennies should be dramatically in favour of this approach. after
> all if you can increase the amount of cargo space on a ship at was
> making money by 15% you are going to be rolling in dough.
> show a military designer how to gain 35% or more of a ship's internal
> volume and he'll probably offer to bear your children on the spot.


Just pray that you never get a fuel tank rupture.

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Cray74

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Since: Jan 25, 2005
Posts: 13



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 4:57 am
Post subject: Re: Yet another option for fuel storage [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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forkliftramp.com wrote:
> show a military designer how to gain 35% or more of a ship's internal
> volume and he'll probably offer to bear your children on the spot.

On second thought, if you're referring to metallic hydrogen (which
doesn't require the refrigeration and thawing you mentioned, just
insane pressures), the military designer would probably be pissed at
you for trying to store a very powerful, unstable bomb in his ship.
IIRC, metallic hydrogen has more energy stored in its compression than
TNT.

The worst that other forms of hydrogen might do if they leak is burn if
oxygen is handy. But if you pop a metallic hydrogen tank, you'll get an
explosion even without needing an oxygen source.

Mike Miller
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Elvis

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Since: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 75



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 7:53 am
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Hmmm, LIQUID METALLIC HYDROGEN? I'd reccommend Exterior Jettisonable
tanks.... The thought of an INTERIOR leak
is just horrible.....
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forkliftramp.com

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Since: Apr 11, 2005
Posts: 165



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 7:55 am
Post subject: Re: Yet another option for fuel storage [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Sun, 02 Apr 2006 08:21:04 GMT, "Michael W. Ryder"
<_mwryder RemoveThis @worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>forkliftramp.com wrote:
>> well since no one seems to like the idea of sorting the d and t from
>> basic h2 and grossly increasing ship ranges/endurance how bout another
>> idea.
>> rather than storing h2 as a liquid which is really very bulky why not
>> jack up the pressure in the tanks and store it as a solid. thaw what
>> you need as you need it cause liquid is so much easier to handle but
>> the solid h2 is again literally 99% less volume than liquid h2. your
>> tanks need to be stronger and you need some extra equipment but you
>> gain a huge amount of internal volume. even for commercial ships the
>> cost bennies should be dramatically in favour of this approach. after
>> all if you can increase the amount of cargo space on a ship at was
>> making money by 15% you are going to be rolling in dough.
>> show a military designer how to gain 35% or more of a ship's internal
>> volume and he'll probably offer to bear your children on the spot.
>
>
>Just pray that you never get a fuel tank rupture.


teeny tiny really well armoured tanks hehe.
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Michael W. Ryder

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Since: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 286



(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 2:55 am
Post subject: Re: Yet another option for fuel storage [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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forkliftramp.com wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Apr 2006 08:21:04 GMT, "Michael W. Ryder"
> <_mwryder.RemoveThis@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>> forkliftramp.com wrote:
>>> well since no one seems to like the idea of sorting the d and t from
>>> basic h2 and grossly increasing ship ranges/endurance how bout another
>>> idea.
>>> rather than storing h2 as a liquid which is really very bulky why not
>>> jack up the pressure in the tanks and store it as a solid. thaw what
>>> you need as you need it cause liquid is so much easier to handle but
>>> the solid h2 is again literally 99% less volume than liquid h2. your
>>> tanks need to be stronger and you need some extra equipment but you
>>> gain a huge amount of internal volume. even for commercial ships the
>>> cost bennies should be dramatically in favour of this approach. after
>>> all if you can increase the amount of cargo space on a ship at was
>>> making money by 15% you are going to be rolling in dough.
>>> show a military designer how to gain 35% or more of a ship's internal
>>> volume and he'll probably offer to bear your children on the spot.
>>
>> Just pray that you never get a fuel tank rupture.
>
>
> teeny tiny really well armoured tanks hehe.


As long as your meson screens stop All meson rounds from getting through
this might be enough. Of course there still has to be a hole in the 20
meters of collapsed armor for the fuel to enter and exit.
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Cray74

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Since: Jan 25, 2005
Posts: 13



(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:00 am
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forkliftramp.com wrote:
> you can actually get hydrogen to a metallic form at high enough
> pressures and low enough temps. 99% reduction is too much but it's
> better than 24% by a good margin.

If you're talking metallic hydrogen, the density depends on the opinion
of the reference you use, but it's about 14x denser than liquid
hydrogen (similar to water).

However, using metallic hydrogen is like juggling glass jars of
nitroglycerin. The container will be near the limits of its strength if
you can manage to contain it all and the hydrogen is ready to explode
when you look at it cross-eyed.

Mike Miller
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forkliftramp.com

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Since: Apr 11, 2005
Posts: 165



(Msg. 8) Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 8:55 pm
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On 4 Apr 2006 09:00:08 -0700, "Cray74@gmail.com" <Cray74.DeleteThis@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>forkliftramp.com wrote:
>> you can actually get hydrogen to a metallic form at high enough
>> pressures and low enough temps. 99% reduction is too much but it's
>> better than 24% by a good margin.
>
>If you're talking metallic hydrogen, the density depends on the opinion
>of the reference you use, but it's about 14x denser than liquid
>hydrogen (similar to water).
>
>However, using metallic hydrogen is like juggling glass jars of
>nitroglycerin. The container will be near the limits of its strength if
>you can manage to contain it all and the hydrogen is ready to explode
>when you look at it cross-eyed.
>
>Mike Miller

interesting and risky at least at our current materials tech capacity.
i would think bonded superdense though would be strong enough.
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Michael W. Ryder

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Since: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 286



(Msg. 9) Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:55 pm
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forkliftramp.com wrote:
> On 4 Apr 2006 09:00:08 -0700, "Cray74@gmail.com" <Cray74.TakeThisOut@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> forkliftramp.com wrote:
>>> you can actually get hydrogen to a metallic form at high enough
>>> pressures and low enough temps. 99% reduction is too much but it's
>>> better than 24% by a good margin.
>> If you're talking metallic hydrogen, the density depends on the opinion
>> of the reference you use, but it's about 14x denser than liquid
>> hydrogen (similar to water).
>>
>> However, using metallic hydrogen is like juggling glass jars of
>> nitroglycerin. The container will be near the limits of its strength if
>> you can manage to contain it all and the hydrogen is ready to explode
>> when you look at it cross-eyed.
>>
>> Mike Miller
>
> interesting and risky at least at our current materials tech capacity.
> i would think bonded superdense though would be strong enough.


In Striker it took about 1 meter of bonded superdense to protect against
the largest mobile direct fire weapon, the Fusion-Y gun. As starship
and planetary defense weapons are at least an order of magnitude more
powerful it will take a very thick container to provide reasonable
protection in combat. This would probably consume as much or more space
than you saved. Add in the extra equipment and expense to handle the
fuel and I think you end up losing money. Also the armored fuel tank
and probably most of the special equipment will have to be manufactured
and maintained on one of the very few TL15 planets making the likelihood
of anyone adapting it very low.
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David Johnston

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Since: Aug 28, 2005
Posts: 419



(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:55 pm
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On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 00:10:48 GMT, forkliftramp.com
<Brian_knowspam.McDonald.RemoveThis@shaw.ca> wrote:

>>Did he include the existence of those fields that keep subatomic
>>particles from decaying (stopping nukes from going off among other
>>things) in his calculations. If so...how?
>
>how he derived this i have no idea.


I think then that his reasoning wasn't sound. The meson guns work by
a totally imaginary technology. Nobody can evaluate how much power
that should take.
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Rupert Boleyn

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Since: Apr 16, 2004
Posts: 1280



(Msg. 11) Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 7:55 am
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On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 00:08:16 GMT, forkliftramp.com
<Brian_knowspam.McDonald DeleteThis @shaw.ca> wrote:

>i am not at all sure how he worked the math out but he did mention the
>half life several times while he was calculating away. this also
>predates anything but the classic traveller books. i think trillion
>credit squadron was just out when this happened.

And they say nothing about efficiency. The first time an Energy Point
to MW ratio is mentioned is in Striker (AFAIK), and without that you
can't even start to calculate. I think Striker had similar orbital
bombardment rules to MT (though I can't remember what the turn length
is). However, the biggest problem is that your friend used half-lives,
and they clearly aren't applicable - they'll be why he couldn't get
the effective range outside the gun.
--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn DeleteThis @paradise.net.nz>
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David Johnston

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Since: Aug 28, 2005
Posts: 419



(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:55 pm
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On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 22:28:50 +1200, Rupert Boleyn
<rboleyn.TakeThisOut@paradise.net.nz> wrote:

>On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 00:08:16 GMT, forkliftramp.com
><Brian_knowspam.McDonald.TakeThisOut@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>>i am not at all sure how he worked the math out but he did mention the
>>half life several times while he was calculating away. this also
>>predates anything but the classic traveller books. i think trillion
>>credit squadron was just out when this happened.
>
>And they say nothing about efficiency. The first time an Energy Point
>to MW ratio is mentioned is in Striker (AFAIK), and without that you
>can't even start to calculate. I think Striker had similar orbital
>bombardment rules to MT (though I can't remember what the turn length
>is). However, the biggest problem is that your friend used half-lives,
>and they clearly aren't applicable - they'll be why he couldn't get
>the effective range outside the gun.

And since the Empire has the technology to stop atoms and subatomic
particles from decaying...
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Rupert Boleyn

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Since: Apr 16, 2004
Posts: 1280



(Msg. 13) Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:55 pm
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On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 18:46:48 GMT, rgorman.TakeThisOut@block.net (David Johnston)
wrote:

>And since the Empire has the technology to stop atoms and subatomic
>particles from decaying...

However, until FF&S Nuclear Dampers were a field effect with somewhat
limited range, so they clearly weren't used for Meson guns.
--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn.TakeThisOut@paradise.net.nz>
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Warren Okuma

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Since: Nov 06, 2004
Posts: 160



(Msg. 14) Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:11 pm
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<Cray74.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1143979052.873059.73120@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>
> forkliftramp.com wrote:
>> show a military designer how to gain 35% or more of a ship's internal
>> volume and he'll probably offer to bear your children on the spot.
>
> On second thought, if you're referring to metallic hydrogen (which
> doesn't require the refrigeration and thawing you mentioned, just
> insane pressures), the military designer would probably be pissed at
> you for trying to store a very powerful, unstable bomb in his ship.
> IIRC, metallic hydrogen has more energy stored in its compression than
> TNT.
>
> The worst that other forms of hydrogen might do if they leak is burn if
> oxygen is handy. But if you pop a metallic hydrogen tank, you'll get an
> explosion even without needing an oxygen source.
>
> Mike Miller
>
Yeah, but an anti-matter leak is usually worse.
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Cray74

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Since: Jan 25, 2005
Posts: 13



(Msg. 15) Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:38 am
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mcv wrote:
> I think I once read that hydrogen can be stored very densely in graphite
> or something like that.

I think graphite (and carbon nanotube) storage options for hydrogen end
up holding a few weight percent of hydrogen. I don't think it's a big
win over liquid hydrogen in terms of density, it just has some handling
advantages (no super-insulation required.)

Mike Miller
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