Why all the ons-torlan remakes?

goPostal wrote:
> "Todd" <noone.DeleteThis@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:chejd3hqr86d45oi690momblfrdkkb0t8u@4ax.com...
>> I've downloaded all the maps I could find on File Front, and I notice
>> that I have 30 remakes or alterations of Torlan. That includes two
>> night versions, four winter, and one sandy desert, and several which
>> are weapon or vehicle switches.
>>
>> Why is this map considered so special that inspires that many?
>>
>>
>
> Uncreative mappers?
>
> Seriously it's hard to do a well designed map. There are so many variables
> that have to be considered. I tried mapping for a while and some of what I
> considered was really good work was just shredded on some of the editor
> forums (and rightfully so). A fully fleshed out map done right with no
> really unfair choke points, HOM errors, texture mistakes, good lighting,
> decent placement of resources, etc. etc. etc. is amazingly hard to create.
> Any noob can bust out a box map but it takes time and real effort to do a
> good map, and this is especially true of AS and ONS.
> This bears out when looking at mapvote. There are several maps that are
> consistantly voted over all others. Players inherently know and like a good
> layout. I think this situation would improve if the editor were made
> simpler, but what do I know? It's just been my experience that "artsy" folks
> with great creative ability tend to not enjoy a structured setup like the
> editor forces you to use, while more "techy" people who take to the ed are
> not generally as creatively minded. The best maps come from team-type
> environs where individuals strengths are pooled. It's a shame that these are
> so few.
>
>
It's damn near impossible to teach someone "Artsy" also. You can make a
technically and tactically superior map, but if it doesn't look good,
it'll be ignored. I think those that have the artistic talent probably
don't want or care to deal with the rest.
 >> Stay informed about: Why all the ons-torlan remakes? 

On a pleasant day while strolling in
alt.games.unreal.tournament2003, a person by the name of
GTD exclaimed:
> goPostal wrote:
> > "Todd" <noone.DeleteThis@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > news:chejd3hqr86d45oi690momblfrdkkb0t8u@4ax.com...
> >> I've downloaded all the maps I could find on File Front, and I notice
> >> that I have 30 remakes or alterations of Torlan. That includes two
> >> night versions, four winter, and one sandy desert, and several which
> >> are weapon or vehicle switches.
> >>
> >> Why is this map considered so special that inspires that many?
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Uncreative mappers?
> >
> > Seriously it's hard to do a well designed map. There are so many variables
> > that have to be considered. I tried mapping for a while and some of what I
> > considered was really good work was just shredded on some of the editor
> > forums (and rightfully so). A fully fleshed out map done right with no
> > really unfair choke points, HOM errors, texture mistakes, good lighting,
> > decent placement of resources, etc. etc. etc. is amazingly hard to create.
> > Any noob can bust out a box map but it takes time and real effort to do a
> > good map, and this is especially true of AS and ONS.
> > This bears out when looking at mapvote. There are several maps that are
> > consistantly voted over all others. Players inherently know and like a good
> > layout. I think this situation would improve if the editor were made
> > simpler, but what do I know? It's just been my experience that "artsy" folks
> > with great creative ability tend to not enjoy a structured setup like the
> > editor forces you to use, while more "techy" people who take to the ed are
> > not generally as creatively minded. The best maps come from team-type
> > environs where individuals strengths are pooled. It's a shame that these are
> > so few.
> >
> >
> It's damn near impossible to teach someone "Artsy" also. You can make a
> technically and tactically superior map, but if it doesn't look good,
> it'll be ignored. I think those that have the artistic talent probably
> don't want or care to deal with the rest.

Which is why those guys are generally separate, I think.
Artists would sketch a design and create graphics to
illustrate. Designers would build maps and place
resources. Artists would create textures etc. Others
create 3d models for vehicles, items, building etc

I dont think its practical for one person to do a good,
decent sized map anymore.

--
aaronl at consultant dot com
For every expert, there is an equal and
opposite expert. - Arthur C. Clarke
 >> Stay informed about: Why all the ons-torlan remakes? 

"Aaron Lawrence" <aaronlNOSPAM.RemoveThis@NOSPAMconsultant.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.2146ee80f79f67da98977e@news20.forteinc.com...
>> > Seriously it's hard to do a well designed map. There are so many
>> > variables
>> > that have to be considered. I tried mapping for a while and some of
>> > what I
>> > considered was really good work was just shredded on some of the editor
>> > forums (and rightfully so). A fully fleshed out map done right with no
>> > really unfair choke points, HOM errors, texture mistakes, good
>> > lighting,
>> > decent placement of resources, etc. etc. etc. is amazingly hard to
>> > create.
>> > Any noob can bust out a box map but it takes time and real effort to do
>> > a
>> > good map, and this is especially true of AS and ONS.
>> > This bears out when looking at mapvote. There are several maps that are
>> > consistantly voted over all others. Players inherently know and like a
>> > good
>> > layout. I think this situation would improve if the editor were made
>> > simpler, but what do I know? It's just been my experience that "artsy"
>> > folks
>> > with great creative ability tend to not enjoy a structured setup like
>> > the
>> > editor forces you to use, while more "techy" people who take to the ed
>> > are
>> > not generally as creatively minded. The best maps come from team-type
>> > environs where individuals strengths are pooled. It's a shame that
>> > these are
>> > so few.
>> >
>> >
>> It's damn near impossible to teach someone "Artsy" also. You can make a
>> technically and tactically superior map, but if it doesn't look good,
>> it'll be ignored. I think those that have the artistic talent probably
>> don't want or care to deal with the rest.
>
> Which is why those guys are generally separate, I think.
> Artists would sketch a design and create graphics to
> illustrate. Designers would build maps and place
> resources. Artists would create textures etc. Others
> create 3d models for vehicles, items, building etc
>
> I dont think its practical for one person to do a good,
> decent sized map anymore.
>

Which is exactly why I thjnk a bunch of work should be done to make the
editor much easier to navigate and use. There are hours and hours of videos
that Buzz put out, not to mention the DVD and the Unreal Technology book
(which is as close to a UT mapper bible as there is), and all this stuff
just makes people's heads hurt. Look at MarbleBlast for instance: A simple
game that uses textures, skyboxes, gravity (although no physics like in UT).
You can whip out a map in no time and it looks good. The interface is clean
and the learning curve is pretty shallow. In the UT editor you have to look
for 5 minutes to find the right actor class, then 10 minutes for the proper
static mesh in the genericaly named packages. It's just too intimidating.
First time mappers, even tech savvy guys, get lost quickly and have to go to
forums to get started.
It's just my experience that a few stock maps get play but most of the maps
that see heavy rotation are user made. Epic should target that audience to
see real growth. If it takes a good group two weeks to create a really great
map from scratch, imagine what could be done for the editor by that same
team and then the positives just keep paying off by more people making
better maps.

BTW, you guys want to get a good laugh? I have been playing Bioshock (Wow!
About as close to a perfect single player FPS I've ever seen) and I wanted
to "ghost" outside the map to see if the water was skybox or not. I couldn't
figure out how to get any sort of "~" to work in-game so I started looking
at the folder. Seems there's an .ini that looks a LOT like the user.ini in
2K4. I thought "Well, same engine, so why not?" and I bound "ghost" and
"walk" to unused keys. Works like a charm. Now I have to see if I can get
"loaded" to work (heh heh).
 >> Stay informed about: Why all the ons-torlan remakes? 

On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 12:19:06 -0700, Todd <noone DeleteThis @nowhere.com> wrote:

>I've downloaded all the maps I could find on File Front, and I notice
>that I have 30 remakes or alterations of Torlan. That includes two
>night versions, four winter, and one sandy desert, and several which
>are weapon or vehicle switches.
>
>Why is this map considered so special that inspires that many?

Because it was the first. It was the sole map in the initial demo.

Dude. How big is your map folder?
 >> Stay informed about: Why all the ons-torlan remakes? 

"Folk" <Folk.DeleteThis@folk.com> wrote in message
news:0e2rd39acg6j3qk3ldi9vv363q9up6fci8@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 12:19:06 -0700, Todd <noone.DeleteThis@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>>I've downloaded all the maps I could find on File Front, and I notice
>>that I have 30 remakes or alterations of Torlan. That includes two
>>night versions, four winter, and one sandy desert, and several which
>>are weapon or vehicle switches.
>>
>>Why is this map considered so special that inspires that many?
>
> Because it was the first. It was the sole map in the initial demo.
>
> Dude. How big is your map folder?

I'll bet mine is bigger than yours.

AND the map folder....
 >> Stay informed about: Why all the ons-torlan remakes? 

On Tue, 4 Sep 2007 14:08:45 -0700, "goPostal"
<agutgopostal.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Folk" <Folk.TakeThisOut@folk.com> wrote in message
>news:0e2rd39acg6j3qk3ldi9vv363q9up6fci8@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 12:19:06 -0700, Todd <noone.TakeThisOut@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I've downloaded all the maps I could find on File Front, and I notice
>>>that I have 30 remakes or alterations of Torlan. That includes two
>>>night versions, four winter, and one sandy desert, and several which
>>>are weapon or vehicle switches.
>>>
>>>Why is this map considered so special that inspires that many?
>>
>> Because it was the first. It was the sole map in the initial demo.
>>
>> Dude. How big is your map folder?
>
>I'll bet mine is bigger than yours.
>
>AND the map folder....

Har.

I'm a traditionalist. I don't bother playing on servers that use
custom maps. FWIW, my UT2004 maps folder is 2 GB.
 >> Stay informed about: Why all the ons-torlan remakes? 

"Folk" <Folk RemoveThis @folk.com> wrote in message
news:09mtd3l6lta7ra6rgo91ds3taf4e4q4khs@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 4 Sep 2007 14:08:45 -0700, "goPostal"
> <agutgopostal RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Folk" <Folk RemoveThis @folk.com> wrote in message
>>news:0e2rd39acg6j3qk3ldi9vv363q9up6fci8@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 12:19:06 -0700, Todd <noone RemoveThis @nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I've downloaded all the maps I could find on File Front, and I notice
>>>>that I have 30 remakes or alterations of Torlan. That includes two
>>>>night versions, four winter, and one sandy desert, and several which
>>>>are weapon or vehicle switches.
>>>>
>>>>Why is this map considered so special that inspires that many?
>>>
>>> Because it was the first. It was the sole map in the initial demo.
>>>
>>> Dude. How big is your map folder?
>>
>>I'll bet mine is bigger than yours.
>>
>>AND the map folder....
>
> Har.
>
> I'm a traditionalist. I don't bother playing on servers that use
> custom maps. FWIW, my UT2004 maps folder is 2 GB.

Mine is 4.2 GB, but that's not really a fair estimate. A great many of those
maps are saves and partials from both I and my kid using the editor. It does
my heart good to see him hunched over the Mastering Unreal book while
fleshing out a map. He even asked me over dinner the other night how to make
a skybox. I was so proud, even though Mom looked at us like we were just
making stuff up.

The only thing I hate is having to download 37 different skins to play on a
server. You just know that the owner has some nearly black catsuit for his
guy while you get stuck with the neon. I see that a lot on the sniper
servers.
 >> Stay informed about: Why all the ons-torlan remakes? 

I stated:

>>I've downloaded all the maps I could find on File Front,
<snip>

Folk <Folk RemoveThis @folk.com> responded:

>Dude. How big is your map folder?


I don't keep all the maps in the folder. I play through them all once
or twice and then keep only the maps I really like in folders to be
accessed.

For original Unreal Tournament, I have about a 30 gig partition that's
two thirds full, although it has an old install of Unreal Gold, also.

For 2004, I have a 90 gig partition, with about 4 gigs free. And
there isn't anything else on that partition except 2004.
 >> Stay informed about: Why all the ons-torlan remakes? 

"Todd" <noone RemoveThis @nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:fc07e3dolhlfgqkbd555ragpno5299eisk@4ax.com...
>I stated:
>
>>>I've downloaded all the maps I could find on File Front,
> <snip>
>
> Folk <Folk RemoveThis @folk.com> responded:
>
>>Dude. How big is your map folder?
>
>
> I don't keep all the maps in the folder. I play through them all once
> or twice and then keep only the maps I really like in folders to be
> accessed.
>
> For original Unreal Tournament, I have about a 30 gig partition that's
> two thirds full, although it has an old install of Unreal Gold, also.
>
> For 2004, I have a 90 gig partition, with about 4 gigs free. And
> there isn't anything else on that partition except 2004.
>
>
>

Winner. Hands down.
 >> Stay informed about: Why all the ons-torlan remakes?