A necro's job...

On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 19:36:20 +0100, Tony Evans
<postmaster@[127.0.0.1]> wrote:

>In alt.games.everquest, "Chorkie" <krumz2003 RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>before!)... I am here to ask, what is a necro for then? They have a pet to
>>fight... I've heard they are not good fighters. I thought they were to
>>assist with the mana. My bad??
>>
>>Most I've found want to nuke the hell out of mobs, waste their mana... and
>>not be supportive of the group. Comments?
>
>Necro's are a dps class.
>
>They can additionally,
>
>slow
>pull
>mezz
>snare
>nuke
>succor (self only)
>rez
>heal
>debuff
>+more
>
>But they are primarily a dps class.
>
>You don't say what your class is - so it's hard to know - but if a necro
>gives up all their mana (with a very inefficient spell) and the mob lives
>longer as a result, some classes will use more mana than they would have
>benefitted from anyway.
>
>Necro's get a group wrack later on which gives 300 mana to everyone at the
>cost of 600. But until then, their single target mana givers are very
>inefficient. Many necro's HATE their mana spells. You found one.
>
>Necro's are not there to feed mana to other characters, they are there to
>have fun like everyone else.

And in fact most self-respecting necro's will not twitch (that's what
they call mana pumping). They expect other classes to manage their
own mana just like they do. Granted they are incredibly effecient at
it but still....

I have a 66 necro and I rarely twitch, and only on my own accord. If
a person asks for it I say no or ignore them. If they are over their
head then they should tell the group. If they can't manage their
mana, how the hell did they get to this level in the first place?!

To be fair I've only had 3 people ever ask for it, 2 were clerics. On
both counts I said no, then they got pissy. Once resulted in me
leaving, the other resulted in me getting disbanded. Whatever.
The third was a guildy who was clueless on his new mana using class so
I did it for a while. Call me soft....

I have done it on my own accord when it was more beneficial to the
group, but honestly that's a rare thing. A necro can dish out an
incredible amount of damage over time, as well as all the things
mentioned above.

So, the short version of all this is, yes, your bad. Necro's are not
there to provide anyone with mana. If they do, consider it the
generous boon that it is. If you ask for it, expect to be insulted
or, at the least, ignored.

~F
 >> Stay informed about: A necro's job... 

He must of not chose to do a lot of damage... 'cause he wasn't doing much of
anything.



"b" <nubbudy.DeleteThis@nuthing.net> wrote in message news:rTdqg.18$0Y6.15@fe10.lga...
>
> "Chorkie" <krumz2003.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:iQcqg.126429$dW3.64963@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
>> Silly me, I thought a necro's job (one of them anyways) was to provide
>> much needed mana to the casters of the group. After once again grouping
>> with a necro last night who does not do this (When I asked him if he
>> could give me some mana he said "no offence, but I have NEVER needed to
>> use that spell before!)... I am here to ask, what is a necro for then?
>> They have a pet to fight... I've heard they are not good fighters. I
>> thought they were to assist with the mana. My bad??
>>
>> Most I've found want to nuke the hell out of mobs, waste their mana...
>> and not be supportive of the group. Comments?
>>
>
> firstly, the 'twitch' line is generally not very efficient at low
> levels...what lvl are you playing at? i don't know when it becomes
> ....umm, pleasureable.... for the necro to do so, but i know it isn't easy
>
> secondly, a clever necro can do more damage than a whole group if he
> likes, so i wouldn't be quick to accuse them of wasting their mana by
> killing everything =P
>
> firiona.goom/fennin.faza
> combine.vaxus
>
 >> Stay informed about: A necro's job... 

I decided to go out and look on the net, to see what strategies others feel
are important for necros. On one site, a high lvl necro posted this:

"Covetous Subversion: You have mana--fill up the others who don't. Most
critical is your Cleric, then your other casters. You can get your Cleric
out of a mana-low and give your other casters a needed boost when everyone
else is full or just alot higher. Always let people know when you are
approaching FM so they know you have mana to give. I usually swap out
Augment Death with Covetous Subversion as needed."

IMO, Necros who are free with their mana are a cleric's best friend. I don't
care how you "manage your mana" you will get low from time to time. If you
say you don't, you lie. I am a lvl 59 cleric and without a necro I do pretty
darn good with a few meds... but why waste time on meds when you have a
necro that can cure that? I just don't get it. Why act like you are imposing
on the poor necro... when all the cleric DOES is save others. We are a very
"giving" class. Yet necros don't feel they deserve anything in return for
keeping their hineys alive?? I just don't get it...


"Chorkie" <krumz2003 RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:iQcqg.126429$dW3.64963@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
> Silly me, I thought a necro's job (one of them anyways) was to provide
> much needed mana to the casters of the group. After once again grouping
> with a necro last night who does not do this (When I asked him if he could
> give me some mana he said "no offence, but I have NEVER needed to use that
> spell before!)... I am here to ask, what is a necro for then? They have a
> pet to fight... I've heard they are not good fighters. I thought they were
> to assist with the mana. My bad??
>
> Most I've found want to nuke the hell out of mobs, waste their mana... and
> not be supportive of the group. Comments?
>
 >> Stay informed about: A necro's job... 

Tony Evans wrote:
> In alt.games.everquest, "Chorkie" <krumz2003.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Um... you think the cost of 300 mana also keeps adding over time?
> Hmmmm...
>
> I have no clue what that means.
>
>
Chorkie is thinking it's like a DoT or a HoT and not thinking it's being
recast every 12 seconds.

__________________________________________________________
Submitted by: Davek
This message was submitted through the Erollisi Marr Forum
 >> Stay informed about: A necro's job... 

"Yet necros don't feel they deserve anything in return for keeping their
hineys alive?? I just don't get it..."


A necromancer does not need a cleric to keep them alive. More times than
not, it's a necromancer who can save a raid from failure. I only give out
mana if I'm in a well tuned group and we're slaying things quickly.
Otherwise, it's a waste of mana and a reduction of damage to do so. Go the
the bazaar and buy yourself some clarity potions.
 >> Stay informed about: A necro's job... 

"JK" <greenmini.DeleteThis@netzero.com> wrote in message
news:5seqg.115352$H71.57466@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> "Yet necros don't feel they deserve anything in return for keeping their
> hineys alive?? I just don't get it..."
>
>
> A necromancer does not need a cleric to keep them alive. More times than
> not, it's a necromancer who can save a raid from failure. I only give out
> mana if I'm in a well tuned group and we're slaying things quickly.
> Otherwise, it's a waste of mana and a reduction of damage to do so. Go
> the the bazaar and buy yourself some clarity potions.
>

Well this necro dedfinitely needed my heals. Sorry to burst your bubble, but
clarity potions do not instantly give mana. <rolleyes> I carry plenty of
potions but most often have a fresh KEI before going anywhere. My mana regen
is not the problem, thanks.
 >> Stay informed about: A necro's job... 

On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 19:44:01 GMT, "JK" <greenmini RemoveThis @netzero.com> wrote:

> "Yet necros don't feel they deserve anything in return for keeping their
>hineys alive?? I just don't get it..."


>A necromancer does not need a cleric to keep them alive.

Hear, hear - with Feign Death, hp-leeching and (sometimes) the healing
Potions, I've never had to have a cleric save MY ass The quoted
web-forum poster REALLY doesn't get it! Then again, a lot of clerics
think the sun shines out of their arse and think they're
indispensable... (Kidding ) Hell, I happily solo the Necro all the
time and could care less I haven't got a cleric to save my hiney.

>More times than
>not, it's a necromancer who can save a raid from failure. I only give out
>mana if I'm in a well tuned group and we're slaying things quickly.
>Otherwise, it's a waste of mana and a reduction of damage to do so. Go the
>the bazaar and buy yourself some clarity potions.

Well said, JK.




Palindrome
 >> Stay informed about: A necro's job... 

On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 19:47:52 GMT, "Chorkie" <krumz2003.DeleteThis@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
>"JK" <greenmini.DeleteThis@netzero.com> wrote in message
>news:5seqg.115352$H71.57466@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
>> "Yet necros don't feel they deserve anything in return for keeping their
>> hineys alive?? I just don't get it..."
>>
>>
>> A necromancer does not need a cleric to keep them alive. More times than
>> not, it's a necromancer who can save a raid from failure. I only give out
>> mana if I'm in a well tuned group and we're slaying things quickly.
>> Otherwise, it's a waste of mana and a reduction of damage to do so. Go
>> the the bazaar and buy yourself some clarity potions.
>>
>
>Well this necro dedfinitely needed my heals. Sorry to burst your bubble, but
>clarity potions do not instantly give mana. <rolleyes> I carry plenty of
>potions but most often have a fresh KEI before going anywhere. My mana regen
>is not the problem, thanks.

So why grumble about Necromancer's NOT giving you their mana???
You're now saying your mana regen is not the problem! Make your mind
up

As Faeander says, just because a Necro is under 50% doesn't mean they
necessarily need a heal off you - like him, I run my Necro on low HP
pretty often, and it's normal. Routine, even. Well, that said, I
suppose nowadays I leech my HP to mana and then take a regen potion or
heal potion, so my HP don't go *that* low now, but the low hitpoints
do happen now and again. Necrmancers can soon sort that out by
leeching the next mob...

But I still don't NEED a heal on me every 5 minutes.


Palindrome
 >> Stay informed about: A necro's job... 

On Tue, 04 Jul 2006 06:28:48 GMT, "Chorkie" <krumz2003.DeleteThis@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>I often ask the necro if he wants heals or not. Surprising many actually
>tell me "of course I do!" While others tell me "no thanks." I have found the
>"no thanks" necros seem to know their job much better.

You've hit the nail on the head there They're also usually the
ones who think the pet is there to do all their work for them, and sit
on their ass.


Palindrome
 >> Stay informed about: A necro's job... 

In article <hVdqg.164864$F_3.107414@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>, Chorkie
wrote:
> I'm a 59 cleric, btw... and have found many efficient necros that have
> given mana freely and were a huge asset to the group. When you see a good
> necro, it is definitley noticed!

I haven't played in a while, but from what I've read, the following still
applies. The key to EQ micromanagement is mana efficiency. A necro giving
mana loses a lot right off the bat, and so the recipient of that mana needs
to be able to make very good use of it for the transfer to be worth it.
Otherwise, it is more efficient for the Necro to use it for something else.

Note that one way to increase mana efficiency is to reduce the amount of
needed to accomplish a given task. For example, if a Necro can make the mob
go down twice as fast, the mob will do less damage to the tank, so the
Cleric will not need to heal as much. If the Necro can reduce the DPS of
the mob, that further increases the groups mana efficiency.

A rather striking illustration of this was the Shaman/Cleric situation
before Kunark. In level 49 or 50 groups, for most XP groups, if a group had
to pick either a Cleric or a Shaman as their healer, the Shaman was the
better choice. The Cleric could heal better, but the Shaman could slow the
mobs so much that their damage output was kept down to where the Shaman's
healing was fine.

--
--Tim Smith
 >> Stay informed about: A necro's job... 

I'm also curious if Chorkie has her summoned hammer that procs and yaulp
with mana regen? At that level, she should consider wading into combat
with her hammer and Yaulp.

I know that in the trio I fight with(warrior, druid and me as cleric),
back then and even now, I'm in the thick of things.

Slap on the reverse damage shield on the mob(or healing shield if mob
happens to have a DS on so it's then dispelled).
Send in pet hammer.
Jump in behind the mob and bash/crush away while yaulping.

With the added dps of the cleric alone and their proccing hammer, you
tend to need to do less healing.

At 64, I rarely have CH memmed and instead opt for a HoT and a quick
heal for emergencies.

With a full group, you shouldn't need to CH at all. Throw in a HoT and
keep battling instead of being out of commission for 10 seconds.

I only revert to doing the ch/sit/med thing if things are really really
tough for the 3 of us to handle.(ie: the mobs are eating the warrior
alive).

Davek

__________________________________________________________
Submitted by: Davek
This message was submitted through the Erollisi Marr Forum
 >> Stay informed about: A necro's job... 

On Tue, 04 Jul 2006 18:59:52 -0000, Tim Smith
<reply_in_group.RemoveThis@mouse-potato.com> wrote:

>In article <hVdqg.164864$F_3.107414@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>, Chorkie
>wrote:
>> I'm a 59 cleric, btw... and have found many efficient necros that have
>> given mana freely and were a huge asset to the group. When you see a good
>> necro, it is definitley noticed!

>I haven't played in a while, but from what I've read, the following still
>applies. The key to EQ micromanagement is mana efficiency. A necro giving
>mana loses a lot right off the bat, and so the recipient of that mana needs
>to be able to make very good use of it for the transfer to be worth it.
>Otherwise, it is more efficient for the Necro to use it for something else.

Maybe at higher levels feeding the Cleric mana is worth it - I
wouldn't know yet though. Based on some of the figures I've just seen
posted, it doesn't *seem* worth it at higher levels either, but I can
only find this out for sure by getting to a higher level and trying
it, I suppose I've had a quick look at the spells, and if I was
lvl 59, the expense of 1200 mana over 3 ticks to give the Cleric a
measly 450 mana sure doesn't seem worth it at first glance... One
thing IS certain, though: I play EQ for fun and excitement, and I
*don't* intend to sit on my arse, watching my pet tank, standing up
only to drain whatever mana I have into the Cleric and keep him/her/it
happy. Fun? Excitement? I think not!

That aside, however, feeding the Cleric mana at my levels IS futile -
I tried it out, and even the Cleric herself thought it a waste of
time. At lvl 37, it costs ME 200 mana to give the equivalent Cleric a
mere 60 mana. If I do this 3 times, the Cleric is STILL 5 mana points
short of (for the sake of argument) a single Superior Heal, but lets
say after that the cleric hasn't hit rock-bottom and has 5 mana to get
the heal off... OK, great, I suppose - but, frankly, if the cleric
has allowed themselves to get so low on mana that they feel doing THAT
will help them in a crisis, I want a better cleric! That's what
med-breaks are for. I've got better things to do with my 600 mana,
such as kill the mob, fear it, root it, "pseudo-mezz" it with
Screaming Terror, and so on. I'll probably have a better use for my
1200 mana at lvl 59, too, heh, but as to that I cannot say.

>Note that one way to increase mana efficiency is to reduce the amount of
>needed to accomplish a given task. For example, if a Necro can make the mob
>go down twice as fast, the mob will do less damage to the tank, so the
>Cleric will not need to heal as much. If the Necro can reduce the DPS of
>the mob, that further increases the groups mana efficiency.

Very true at my levels. At the level the OP's Cleric is, I concede it
*might* well be different then, but I'd still much rather go for DPS
too. A group that can combine their various specialities to kill a
mob in 20 seconds is going to need a hell of a lot of less Healing
than a group who kills the mob in 40 or 60.



Palindrome
 >> Stay informed about: A necro's job... 

In article <ilgla29t6ekjcraqdtlkiss3o4bsm7dmr7 RemoveThis @4ax.com>,
Palindrome <damon-nomad RemoveThis @tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>I've had a quick look at the spells, and if I was
>lvl 59, the expense of 1200 mana over 3 ticks to give the Cleric a
>measly 450 mana sure doesn't seem worth it at first glance... One


1200 - 35% for focus and specialization. A reasonably buffed
necro can med back 100 per tick. So it's more like 600 for 450 mana.
IMHO you can optimize your kill rate by pulling "too fast" and having
the necro feed the cleric between pulls or when the cleric goes OOM.


Keep those soul orbs handy, too, and you can *heal* the cleric
when he gets aggro. That really blows their minds
 >> Stay informed about: A necro's job...