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Since: Jan 28, 2008
Posts: 3
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:31 pm
Post subject: A new (?) movement style for multiplayer roguelikes
Archived from groups: rec>games>roguelike>development (more info?)
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I was pondering the age-old question of how to make a multiplayer
roguelike without violating one of the genre's most important features
- being turn-based. Obviously, having each player make one little move
at a time would make moving large distances incredibly tedious,
especially if some players had a tendency to take their sweet time. It
occurred to me that perhaps a viable alternative would be to do a
movement style reminiscent of turn-based strategy games. Instead of
moving one space at a time, a player could move a number of spaces at
a time (or do a number of actions while standing in place). Obviously
this violates other roguelike traditions, but does it seem like a
viable way to accomplish multiplayer without making it real-time or
tick-based? |
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Since: Jan 27, 2008
Posts: 31
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:49 am
Post subject: Re: A new (?) movement style for multiplayer roguelikes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 29 Jan, 05:54, awhite <spud....DeleteThis@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 20:31:51 -0800, Garrison Benson wrote:
> > I was pondering the age-old question of how to make a multiplayer
> > roguelike without violating one of the genre's most important features -
> > being turn-based.
How about a party movement system like Ultima 6 and Avernum? It would
have two modes - peaceful and combat. The party would always have a
leader. This role should ideally be switchable between different
characters depending on the nature of the dungeon (Passage full of
traps? Put the Rogue in front).
In the "peaceful" mode, all other party members would line up after
the leader, which would then control the whole party. At any time the
game can be switched to "combat" mode, during which every character
could move individually. There could be a 5 second timeout (or a "skip
current player" key available to the others), so people who go AFK
wouldn't lock up the whole game.
I think this would be a sane compromise; a single player would handle
routine travel, but everyone could take individual actions during
encounters.
This wouldn't work well for a MMORPG, of course, but I think the
spirit of Rogue would be best preserved with a small party, just a
couple of friends hacking away together. It could be extended with a
chatroom (an inn) or a real-time, non-PvP town where people could
shop, talk and regroup before heading to the dungeons.
> But I wouldn't worry too much about violating genres, if I were you.
> Focus on making a fun *game*, rather than following a hidebound tradition.
Rogue probably violated every genre in existance when it appeared.
-the ru |
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External
Since: Jan 22, 2008
Posts: 5
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:58 am
Post subject: Re: A new (?) movement style for multiplayer roguelikes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Since: Apr 06, 2005
Posts: 1031
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:31 pm
Post subject: Re: A new (?) movement style for multiplayer roguelikes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Quoting =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ulf_=C5str=F6m?= <ulf.astrom RemoveThis @gmail.com>:
>>On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 20:31:51 -0800, Garrison Benson wrote:
>>>I was pondering the age-old question of how to make a multiplayer
>>>roguelike without violating one of the genre's most important features -
>>>being turn-based.
Take a look at Mangband - after all, it works well enough for people to
play it...
>How about a party movement system like Ultima 6 and Avernum? It would
>have two modes - peaceful and combat.
This idea gets mooted a lot, but of course if it's going to be anything
like a traditional roguelike, there won't _be_ much gameplay with no
hostiles around. Also, this is multi-character, not multi-player...
--
David Damerell <damerell RemoveThis @chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Today is Stilday, January - a weekend. >> Stay informed about: A new (?) movement style for multiplayer roguelikes |
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Since: Dec 17, 2007
Posts: 37
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:33 pm
Post subject: Re: A new (?) movement style for multiplayer roguelikes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 29 Jan, 19:58, Robson <iceyi... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 29, 4:31 am, Garrison Benson <Benson.Garri... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > a player could move a number of spaces at
> > a time (or do a number of actions while standing in place
>
> My multiplayer roguelike works like this. It's just a 7drl, but it's
> finished and can be tested without needing someone else:
>
> http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/?title=War_of_Wizards
>
> Each player can move up to 5 squares and then perform an action (i.e.
> cast a spell). This still feels roguelike and play progresses a lot
> faster than just doing one action each time.
This reminds me of X-COM. There you had time-units for each character
that you could spend on moving, shooting, etc, for any given turn. But
sometimes this "time management" got a bit too complicated for my
taste...simple rules are best.
Jotaf >> Stay informed about: A new (?) movement style for multiplayer roguelikes |
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Since: Nov 06, 2006
Posts: 838
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:51 pm
Post subject: Re: A new (?) movement style for multiplayer roguelikes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article <e20b89e2-deb6-4981-950e-
146cb9d93edb.DeleteThis@p69g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, ulf.astrom.DeleteThis@gmail.com says...
> On 29 Jan, 05:54, awhite <spud....DeleteThis@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> > On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 20:31:51 -0800, Garrison Benson wrote:
> > > I was pondering the age-old question of how to make a multiplayer
> > > roguelike without violating one of the genre's most important features -
> > > being turn-based.
>
> How about a party movement system like Ultima 6 and Avernum? It would
> have two modes - peaceful and combat. The party would always have a
> leader. This role should ideally be switchable between different
> characters depending on the nature of the dungeon (Passage full of
> traps? Put the Rogue in front).
>
> In the "peaceful" mode, all other party members would line up after
> the leader, which would then control the whole party. At any time the
> game can be switched to "combat" mode, during which every character
> could move individually. There could be a 5 second timeout (or a "skip
> current player" key available to the others), so people who go AFK
> wouldn't lock up the whole game.
>
> I think this would be a sane compromise; a single player would handle
> routine travel, but everyone could take individual actions during
> encounters.
And it can be combined with several moves and an action on each turn, as
in Avernum - my game Lair shows that this is workable for roguelikes
too.
> This wouldn't work well for a MMORPG, of course, but I think the
> spirit of Rogue would be best preserved with a small party, just a
> couple of friends hacking away together. It could be extended with a
> chatroom (an inn) or a real-time, non-PvP town where people could
> shop, talk and regroup before heading to the dungeons.
Guild Wars operates like this, AFAIK - everywhere is instanced except
towns. So if you are fighting monsters you are in a party of up to
eight, many of which are typically NPC 'heroes' or 'henchmen'. (You
have greater control over heroes.)
- Gerry Quinn
--
Lair of the Demon Ape (a coffee-break roguelike)
<http://indigo.ie/~gerryq/lair/lair.htm> >> Stay informed about: A new (?) movement style for multiplayer roguelikes |
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Since: Jun 15, 2004
Posts: 143
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:41 am
Post subject: Re: A new (?) movement style for multiplayer roguelikes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Garrison Benson <Benson.Garrison DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in news:0d067ef3-e350-
48de-9fe6-c065b011e3f1 DeleteThis @i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
> I was pondering the age-old question of how to make a multiplayer
> roguelike without violating one of the genre's most important features
> - being turn-based. Obviously, having each player make one little move
> at a time would make moving large distances incredibly tedious,
> especially if some players had a tendency to take their sweet time. It
> occurred to me that perhaps a viable alternative would be to do a
> movement style reminiscent of turn-based strategy games. Instead of
> moving one space at a time, a player could move a number of spaces at
> a time (or do a number of actions while standing in place). Obviously
> this violates other roguelike traditions, but does it seem like a
> viable way to accomplish multiplayer without making it real-time or
> tick-based?
An old computer games magazine I read (286-era or so) had a review
of a skirmish war game where the player entered a string of commands
for each turn, which would then be executed as the turn unfolded.
Turn length was player-defined, ranging from something like 0.1 to
2.5 seconds. The reviewer's optimal choice was somewhere in the
middle (as a game maker would hope), as the smallest slice caused too
much micromanagement between conflict (particularly as the player
controlled several soldiers) while the largest slice meant you would
likely be torn apart when the unexpected happened early in a turn.
Combat benefited from being a 20th century battle, as you didn't
really enter commands that said to attack a specific person, but
rather ordered soldiers to attack viable targets inside their
attack arc. I vaguely recall you could set ranges and/or percent
thresholds to determine whether to attack, and could set durations
to watch for viable targets. Though you could attack specific spots
as well.
I've no idea how it would translate into a fantasy combat system,
which is what it seems most Roguelikes use, though. >> Stay informed about: A new (?) movement style for multiplayer roguelikes |
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Since: Apr 19, 2007
Posts: 12
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:56 am
Post subject: Re: A new (?) movement style for multiplayer roguelikes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Jotaf wrote:
>
> This reminds me of X-COM. There you had time-units for each character
> that you could spend on moving, shooting, etc, for any given turn. But
> sometimes this "time management" got a bit too complicated for my
> taste...simple rules are best.
Hmm, it's kind of strange that no one has written an x-com rogue-
like. It's got all the right elements when it comes to tactical
combat. Even the over world and base building could be handled in
text if desired.
--
TAZ >> Stay informed about: A new (?) movement style for multiplayer roguelikes |
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Since: Nov 14, 2007
Posts: 40
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:11 am
Post subject: Re: A new (?) movement style for multiplayer roguelikes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Since: Jan 30, 2008
Posts: 1
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:15 am
Post subject: Re: A new (?) movement style for multiplayer roguelikes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Jan 30, 1:22 pm, Derek Ray <de....RemoveThis@moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org>
wrote:
>
> Quick, represent direction-facing in a single ASCII character.
>
Have a separate "display" for the facing in the lower meta-data area.
Using some kind of combo:
->
<-
^
v
Not sure about angles tho 
*
/
\
*
*
\
/
*
? >> Stay informed about: A new (?) movement style for multiplayer roguelikes |
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Since: Apr 19, 2007
Posts: 12
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:16 pm
Post subject: Re: A new (?) movement style for multiplayer roguelikes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Jos Yule wrote:
>
> > Quick, represent direction-facing in a single ASCII character.
>
> Have a separate "display" for the facing in the lower meta-data area.
That's my off the cuff answer as well. Facing is additional data like
stance, health, or weapon carried. The purpose of the @ symbol is to
indicate position. The default behavior would be to turn and face the
direction of movement unless the character stopped and made a
deliberate turning action.
Another possibility might be to make everything within the line of
sight bold text or highlight the background color. This would
'illuminate' an arc indicating the character's facing without relying
on a specific set of symbols for the character.
--
TAZ >> Stay informed about: A new (?) movement style for multiplayer roguelikes |
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Since: Nov 12, 2007
Posts: 194
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:22 pm
Post subject: Re: A new (?) movement style for multiplayer roguelikes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 2008-01-30, zircher <tzircher.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Jotaf wrote:
>> This reminds me of X-COM. There you had time-units for each character
>> that you could spend on moving, shooting, etc, for any given turn. But
>> sometimes this "time management" got a bit too complicated for my
>> taste...simple rules are best.
> Hmm, it's kind of strange that no one has written an x-com rogue-
> like. It's got all the right elements when it comes to tactical
> combat. Even the over world and base building could be handled in
> text if desired.
Quick, represent direction-facing in a single ASCII character.
--
Derek
Game info and change log: http://sporkhack.com
Beta Server: telnet://sporkhack.com
IRC: irc.freenode.net, #sporkhack >> Stay informed about: A new (?) movement style for multiplayer roguelikes |
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Since: Dec 17, 2007
Posts: 10
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:54 pm
Post subject: Re: A new (?) movement style for multiplayer roguelikes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Jan 30, 1:22 pm, Derek Ray <de....RemoveThis@moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org>
wrote:
> On 2008-01-30, zircher <tzirc....RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Quick, represent direction-facing in a single ASCII character.
>
my RL does facing, it only projects the FOV in the direction the
character
is facing, and is not a full 360 FOV, but a 1/3 circle type FOV.
if a monster is behind you.. you dont know it till you turn around!
-stu >> Stay informed about: A new (?) movement style for multiplayer roguelikes |
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Since: Nov 14, 2007
Posts: 40
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:22 pm
Post subject: Re: A new (?) movement style for multiplayer roguelikes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Jan 30, 2:16 pm, zircher <tzirc....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Jos Yule wrote:
>
> > > Quick, represent direction-facing in a single ASCII character.
>
> > Have a separate "display" for the facing in the lower meta-data area.
>
> That's my off the cuff answer as well. Facing is additional data like
> stance, health, or weapon carried. The purpose of the @ symbol is to
> indicate position. The default behavior would be to turn and face the
> direction of movement unless the character stopped and made a
> deliberate turning action.
Gearhead implements facing; it might be worth it to take a look (the
direction is given on the top right of the screen).
--
Gamer_2k4 >> Stay informed about: A new (?) movement style for multiplayer roguelikes |
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Posts: 838
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:31 pm
Post subject: Re: A new (?) movement style for multiplayer roguelikes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article <Xns9A34D2667772Awhatcholookinat RemoveThis @216.168.3.70>,
baines RemoveThis @coastalnet.com says...
> An old computer games magazine I read (286-era or so) had a review
> of a skirmish war game where the player entered a string of commands
> for each turn, which would then be executed as the turn unfolded.
>
> Turn length was player-defined, ranging from something like 0.1 to
> 2.5 seconds. The reviewer's optimal choice was somewhere in the
> middle (as a game maker would hope), as the smallest slice caused too
> much micromanagement between conflict (particularly as the player
> controlled several soldiers) while the largest slice meant you would
> likely be torn apart when the unexpected happened early in a turn.
Actually Lair works like this, to a degree. You can choose to take a
small turn or a long turn (1-10 seconds), and the monsters are then
given the same amount of time that you used. It's possible to use this
to your tactical advantage to some degree.
Monsters (and you) can only act once on any turn, and acting uses up all
the 'time' they have stored. If they are able to move but not act on a
given turn, any remaining time carries over to the next. It works quite
well this way - not *too* exploitable.
- Gerry Quinn
--
Lair of the Demon Ape (a coffee-break roguelike)
<http://indigo.ie/~gerryq/lair/lair.htm> >> Stay informed about: A new (?) movement style for multiplayer roguelikes |
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