Does this milling work?

"Reinhard Schilmoeller" <schilmo.RemoveThis@uni-muenster.de> wrote in message
news:Pine.A41.4.63.0603202341550.327880@zivunix.uni-muenster.de...
>I tried to build a Standard-legal "mill" deck.
>
> 2 Circu, Dimir Lobotomist
> 2 Cloudhoof Kirin
> 4 Dampen Thought
> 2 Glimpse the Unthinkable
> 4 Rend Flesh
> 2 Eerie Procession
> 4 Consuming Vortex
> 3 Peer Through Depths
> 3 Reach Through Mists
> 2 Twincast
> 2 Dimir Cutpurse
> 4 Dimir Infiltrator
> 2 Drift of Phantasms
> 1 Kami of the Crescent Moon
> 1 Kiri-Onna
> 2 Will-o'-the-Wisp
>
> 4 Watery Grave
> 10 Island
> 6 Swamp
>
> I've played a few games with it, but I'm not really happy with the
> performance. Do you think this type of deck has a chance at all in
> the current Standard environment? If yes, any suggestions for
> improvement?
>
> Thanks for any ideas!


Have you thought about traumatize?
or even Millstone?

Drift of phantasm??? probably for the transmute... for a creature, think
about Belltower Sphinx or Aetherplasm. Kiri-onna is a very expensive
creature. Szadek could work, but also an expensive creature.

My opinion

Jonathan Fourie
South Africa
 >> Stay informed about: Does this milling work? 

This is what I have currently:


// Lands
6 Island
1 Duskmantle, House of Shadow
4 Watery Grave
4 Swamp
3 Dimir Aqueduct
4 Underground River

// Creatures
3 Dimir Infiltrator
1 Hypnotic Specter
1 Cloudhoof Kirin
2 Drift of Phantasms
3 Plagued Rusalka
1 Helldozer

// Spells
2 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Loxodon Warhammer
2 Leyline of Singularity
3 Ribbons of Night
1 Eradicate
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
3 Clinging Darkness
4 Quicken
1 Jester's Cap
2 Stream of Consciousness
1 Trade Routes
1 Consume Spirit


I "discovered" some other interesting cards as well =)

Stream of conciousness works exactly like gaea's blessing sans the
cantrip, but now it can be played as an instant.


Jester's Cap was essential when it came down to actually milling the
opponent.


I the more i play will mill, the less I like it as a concept, at least
using the dimir.

The reason being there is little to support it. Most times it is the
warhammer winning the game.

But if I do not put in support cards like whammer and other critter
control card. Its very tough to maintain control of the board (which
would not be so critical if I can mill fast enough).

In terms of mass removal there is nothing like wog or pyroclasm.
Hideous Laughter is too late to be meaning full.

Ribbons of Night is very nice. But really, many games I die one turn
before I can cast it and get back in the game. The karoo lands? treat
it as 1cc signets ;p

Leyline of Singularity is golden, but I need better control elements.
Else I have dropped it to just 2.

Something like Bazaar of Wonders would be nice =) .. now if only they
made Circu untargetable, he might be worth it.

Helldozer is to keep the opponent down if he goes into a rut. Too often
you are happily milling and the opponent topdecks somthing to ruin
your game... with like 10 cards to go....
 >> Stay informed about: Does this milling work? 

On 31 Mar 2006 22:49:07 -0800, "arcane7828"
<god_is_good478.TakeThisOut@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

>// Creatures
> 3 Dimir Infiltrator
> 1 Hypnotic Specter
> 1 Cloudhoof Kirin
> 2 Drift of Phantasms
> 3 Plagued Rusalka
> 1 Helldozer

I would think Dimir House Guard might be decent in this deck. He
would allow you to tutor for some of your cards (the cap, the leyline,
the Night, Cranial, maybe that dredge card that forces discard etc.)
I like Quicken as a concept, but I think those slots could maybe be
used for some better spells. Seems like drift is pretty good for
holding onto the board, and 4 might be appropriate. Or maybe that
Vedalken guy that mills and is a 1/4 or something like that.

Specter seems less good with only one copy. Same with Kirin, although
that can be a decent card, I think.

Have you tried any counter magic? 4 mana leaks might go a long way
toward extending the game (which is all you really need to do)


>before I can cast it and get back in the game. The karoo lands? treat
>it as 1cc signets ;p

I tend to like signets better, but a karoo or two might be decent.
You'll probably have to try both.

>Something like Bazaar of Wonders would be nice =) .. now if only they
>made Circu untargetable, he might be worth it.

Kira Great Glass-spinner makes your critters untargetable for the
first target. Might be a thought if you are running into way too much
mortify/putrefy/etc.

Why not 4 Glimpse the Unthinkable?

good luck,
K
 >> Stay informed about: Does this milling work? 

"arcane7828" <god_is_good478 DeleteThis @yahoo.co.in> wrote in
news:1143874147.516623.79480@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

OK, my $.02

> This is what I have currently:
>
>
> // Lands
> 6 Island
> 1 Duskmantle, House of Shadow
> 4 Watery Grave
> 4 Swamp
> 3 Dimir Aqueduct
> 4 Underground River
>
> // Creatures
> 3 Dimir Infiltrator
> 1 Hypnotic Specter
> 1 Cloudhoof Kirin
> 2 Drift of Phantasms
> 3 Plagued Rusalka
> 1 Helldozer

I'm guessing the Infiltrator is mainly used to Transmute for Glimpse,
right? I'd use 4, so you can cast an early one to stop weenies.

How well is the Kirin's spiritcraft actually working? Unless it's getting
you a ton of cards, I'd go to something like Belltower Sphinx, and focus
on Glimpse as my main mill engine.

Hypnotic Specter seems out of place here. If you transmute for it, you
won't cast it untill turn 4, and with only 2 Drift of Phantasms, that's
not even guaranteed.

> // Spells
> 2 Glimpse the Unthinkable
> 4 Threads of Disloyalty
> 2 Loxodon Warhammer
> 2 Leyline of Singularity
> 3 Ribbons of Night
> 1 Eradicate
> 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
> 3 Clinging Darkness
> 4 Quicken
> 1 Jester's Cap
> 2 Stream of Consciousness
> 1 Trade Routes
> 1 Consume Spirit
>
>
> I "discovered" some other interesting cards as well =)
>
> Stream of conciousness works exactly like gaea's blessing sans the
> cantrip, but now it can be played as an instant.
>
>
> Jester's Cap was essential when it came down to actually milling the
> opponent.

How is that? It gets exactly 3 cards, assuming you can even find and
cast it in the first place. Not that I don't like this card, mind you,
but I didn't see any way to tutor for it, so I'd figure either 4-of, or
none.
>
> I the more i play will mill, the less I like it as a concept, at least
> using the dimir.
>
> The reason being there is little to support it. Most times it is the
> warhammer winning the game.
>
> But if I do not put in support cards like whammer and other critter
> control card. Its very tough to maintain control of the board (which
> would not be so critical if I can mill fast enough).
>
> In terms of mass removal there is nothing like wog or pyroclasm.
> Hideous Laughter is too late to be meaning full.

You could try Nausea (-1/-1 for 1B), or Infest (-2/-2 for 2B), and of
course Massacre is basically free against white weenie decks. Of course,
since you only need to survive till turn 4 for Hideous Laughter, you
could just use an Infiltrator and a Rusalka or 2 to stall till you get to
that point. Maybe what you need is some targetted removal for big
threats.
> Ribbons of Night is very nice. But really, many games I die one turn
> before I can cast it and get back in the game. The karoo lands? treat
> it as 1cc signets ;p
>
> Leyline of Singularity is golden, but I need better control elements.
> Else I have dropped it to just 2.
>
> Something like Bazaar of Wonders would be nice =) .. now if only they
> made Circu untargetable, he might be worth it.
>
> Helldozer is to keep the opponent down if he goes into a rut. Too often
> you are happily milling and the opponent topdecks somthing to ruin
> your game... with like 10 cards to go....
>

Some other thoughts...
Night of Soul's Betrayal + Rusalka isn't exactly good times.

Overall, it looks like your cards are leading you to a long, heavy
control game when you say it needs to move faster. Nothing's much faster
at milling than Glimpse the Unthinkable, so with that in mind...

+1 Dimir Infiltrator
+2 Belltower Sphinx (or more)
+4 Muddle the Mixture
+2 Glimpse the Unthinkable
+1 Consume Spirit
+4 Disembowel (or Rend Flesh, or...)

-1 Hypnotic Specter
-1 Cloudhoof Kirin
-4 Threads of disloyalty
-1 Eradicate
-1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
-4 Quicken
-1 Jester's Cap (or +3, if you really want it to work)
-1 Trade Routes

Your object is to find and play Glimpse as fast and as often as possible.
With that in mind, slow down weenie rushes with Infiltrator and Rusalkas,
then use Belltower Sphinx to stop most attacking strategies. Your
targetted removal deals with troublesome attackers.

Meanwhile, Transmute for and cast Glimpse the Unthinkable as often as
possible. When you run out, Stream them back into your library. Muddle
the Mixture can also operate as a counter-counterspell, if necessary.
--
I'm not an expert, but I play one on Usenet.
 >> Stay informed about: Does this milling work? 

Dan Bressler wrote:
> "arcane7828" <god_is_good478 DeleteThis @yahoo.co.in> wrote in
> news:1143874147.516623.79480@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
>
> OK, my $.02
>
> > This is what I have currently:
> >
> >
> > // Lands
> > 6 Island
> > 1 Duskmantle, House of Shadow
> > 4 Watery Grave
> > 4 Swamp
> > 3 Dimir Aqueduct
> > 4 Underground River
> >
> > // Creatures
> > 3 Dimir Infiltrator
> > 1 Hypnotic Specter
> > 1 Cloudhoof Kirin
> > 2 Drift of Phantasms
> > 3 Plagued Rusalka
> > 1 Helldozer
>
> I'm guessing the Infiltrator is mainly used to Transmute for Glimpse,
> right? I'd use 4, so you can cast an early one to stop weenies.
>

I am agonising 3 and 4 =)


> How well is the Kirin's spiritcraft actually working? Unless it's getting
> you a ton of cards, I'd go to something like Belltower Sphinx, and focus
> on Glimpse as my main mill engine.
>

Belltower is perfect, but cc is too high... maybe 1

> Hypnotic Specter seems out of place here. If you transmute for it, you
> won't cast it untill turn 4, and with only 2 Drift of Phantasms, that's
> not even guaranteed.
>

I think this might be partly due to the deck I am playtesting against
(a quick beatdown style deck - the Zoo deck from PT honolulu), mostly I
want the hippie when I have stabilised the board (else the hippie just
ends up blocking and dying)... you may be right though, there might be
a better card to take its place


> >
> > Jester's Cap was essential when it came down to actually milling the
> > opponent.
>
> How is that? It gets exactly 3 cards, assuming you can even find and
> cast it in the first place. Not that I don't like this card, mind you,
> but I didn't see any way to tutor for it, so I'd figure either 4-of, or
> none.

well... not quite milling I guess, but I tend to play it only on 6
lands. Mostly to take out the remaining burn in my opponent's deck,
again this might be due to the decks i am playtesting against. Also 1
is nice with streams of conciousness

> >
> > I the more i play will mill, the less I like it as a concept, at least
> > using the dimir.
> >
> > The reason being there is little to support it. Most times it is the
> > warhammer winning the game.
> >
> > But if I do not put in support cards like whammer and other critter
> > control card. Its very tough to maintain control of the board (which
> > would not be so critical if I can mill fast enough).
> >
> > In terms of mass removal there is nothing like wog or pyroclasm.
> > Hideous Laughter is too late to be meaning full.
>
> You could try Nausea (-1/-1 for 1B), or Infest (-2/-2 for 2B), and of
> course Massacre is basically free against white weenie decks. Of course,
> since you only need to survive till turn 4 for Hideous Laughter, you
> could just use an Infiltrator and a Rusalka or 2 to stall till you get to
> that point. Maybe what you need is some targetted removal for big
> threats.

currently I am using clinging darkness to hold down nasty early
critters.. nausea and infest are both not standard legal. Though infest
would have been perfect. The cc is just right.

I tried Hideous laughter, but it was a bit of a fog as most of his
critters survive. It gave me an extra turn, but being 4cc, i could'nt
do much else.

> > Ribbons of Night is very nice. But really, many games I die one turn
> > before I can cast it and get back in the game. The karoo lands? treat
> > it as 1cc signets ;p
> >
> > Leyline of Singularity is golden, but I need better control elements.
> > Else I have dropped it to just 2.
> >
> > Something like Bazaar of Wonders would be nice =) .. now if only they
> > made Circu untargetable, he might be worth it.
> >
> > Helldozer is to keep the opponent down if he goes into a rut. Too often
> > you are happily milling and the opponent topdecks somthing to ruin
> > your game... with like 10 cards to go....
> >
>
> Some other thoughts...
> Night of Soul's Betrayal + Rusalka isn't exactly good times.
>

true true, I hated drawing them late, but early they are really nice.

Night of Souls' betrayal kills weenie, if it were not legendary.. I
think its value would have been much much higher ;p

>
> Your object is to find and play Glimpse as fast and as often as possible.
> With that in mind, slow down weenie rushes with Infiltrator and Rusalkas,
> then use Belltower Sphinx to stop most attacking strategies. Your
> targetted removal deals with troublesome attackers.
>

Many games go like this:

T1: opponent plays 1 cc dude (frenzied gobbo/s.rulsaka/kird ape)
T2: opponent plays 2 cc dude (scabclan 3/3 dude/ dryad)
T3: opponent plays 3 cc thingy (moldervine cloak / burning tree shaman)
T4: oppoenet plays 4 cc solifuge or 3cc burn


Normally by T4, if you do not have a decent defense you lose at T4.

Hence i am targetting 1-3 cc defence. Any turn I use to glimpse is a
turn i lost in setting up the defence. Targetted removal is good, but
what makes the solifuge really shine here is that it is untargettable
;p It forces a 1 for 1 trade.

with the cloak the 1/1 critters become 4/4, 2/3 become 5/6.

This happens at T3. The drift quickly becomes sludge infront of the
cloaked kird ape ;p

Glimpse also happens to hasten that strategy (though its normally a
risk I take if glimpse is in my hand, it is usually a catch 22,
sometimes you take out the business cards, with dredge, you actually
hasten it by milling)

The beautiful thing about the Zoo deck is that is is very consistent.

Actually the deck currently stand pretty alright against Zoo, but I
need to test it against control decks now (targetted removal may not be
as good then..)


This is the current incarnation:


// Lands
6 Island
1 Duskmantle, House of Shadow
4 Watery Grave
4 Swamp
3 Dimir Aqueduct
4 Underground River

// Creatures
3 Dimir Infiltrator
1 Hypnotic Specter
1 Cloudhoof Kirin
2 Drift of Phantasms
3 Plagued Rusalka
1 Helldozer
1 Hunted Horror
1 Clone

// Spells
2 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Loxodon Warhammer
3 Ribbons of Night
1 Eradicate
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Clinging Darkness
4 Quicken
1 Jester's Cap
2 Stream of Consciousness
3 Leyline of Singularity


I just don't like the way it wins when it does


> Meanwhile, Transmute for and cast Glimpse the Unthinkable as often as
> possible. When you run out, Stream them back into your library. Muddle
> the Mixture can also operate as a counter-counterspell, if necessary.
> --
> I'm not an expert, but I play one on Usenet.
 >> Stay informed about: Does this milling work? 

On 1 Apr 2006 19:42:37 -0800, "arcane7828"
<god_is_good478 RemoveThis @yahoo.co.in> wrote:
>
>ktneely@astroturfgarden.com wrote:
>> On 31 Mar 2006 22:49:07 -0800, "arcane7828"
>> <god_is_good478 RemoveThis @yahoo.co.in> wrote:
>>
>> I would think Dimir House Guard might be decent in this deck. He
>> would allow you to tutor for some of your cards (the cap, the leyline,
>
>At 4 cc he is a little slow.. I have tried Nightmare void.... generally
>discard you gotta hit them fast...

I thought of the House Guard as more of a diabolic tutor for 3 for
your deck, much like you use the drifts. He can set up a good number
of turn 4 things, like Persecute, Cranial, etc.


>I miss the ritual/;HIPPIE DAYS ;P or not =/ The kirin would have been
>grand with Dampen thought and if my deck was more built around
>spiritcraft...

Dampen thought is nice. I just came across Vision Charm again. That's
a nice card. Ah well. The glimpses seem key, but you need some other
milling to fall back on. I like Dampen, b/c you can use Rend Flesh or
hideous laughter to help control, and splice it on.


>I played with that thought... but I think it makes equipping more
>expensive... But Kira is a very nice card to build a deck around =)

I know the whammer has won you games, but that seems to take so much
away from the point of the deck, so I am not really considering it. If
you play with guys you need, then Kira is good. If not, then she
should be replaced.

>> Why not 4 Glimpse the Unthinkable?
>>
>
>Initially I had 4, but glimpse just did'nt do enough.

Seems like 4 glimpse + 2 Twincast is pretty decent. Also, twincast,
can get you the land you need (if they cast Kodama's reach, etc) or do
other things for you.

>I think the problem might be that I am playtesting against the
>gruul-Zoo deck from PT honolulu.

That deck does not dominate my metagame. Not even close. I went 2-2
with it this past week, although I had some pretty abysmal draws. It
can be good, and I have also placed 2nd with it.


All in all, I think what this deck really needs is some sort of
worship/kira or Platinum Angel type combo to help it out. Something
that makes it really tough for your opponent to win the game. I just
don't know what that is yet... :)ed
 >> Stay informed about: Does this milling work? 

>
> I thought of the House Guard as more of a diabolic tutor for 3 for
> your deck, much like you use the drifts. He can set up a good number
> of turn 4 things, like Persecute, Cranial, etc.
>
>

ahh that would be a more dedicated discard deck


>
>
> >I played with that thought... but I think it makes equipping more
> >expensive... But Kira is a very nice card to build a deck around =)
>
> I know the whammer has won you games, but that seems to take so much
> away from the point of the deck, so I am not really considering it. If
> you play with guys you need, then Kira is good. If not, then she
> should be replaced.
>

true, but the whammer is really nice, +3 power, life gain plus trample
!

And this deck really needs the life gain or better defense


> >I think the problem might be that I am playtesting against the
> >gruul-Zoo deck from PT honolulu.
>
> That deck does not dominate my metagame. Not even close. I went 2-2
> with it this past week, although I had some pretty abysmal draws. It
> can be good, and I have also placed 2nd with it.
>

if you mean the Zoo... hmmm.. I dunno it is very important to have a
first drop, golden if you have a first drop as well as a second drop.
It is very efficiently built. With alot of redundency built in, and
moldervine is rather good (+3/+3 and dredge!) It is the dredge that
really makes the moldervine annoying.


>
> All in all, I think what this deck really needs is some sort of
> worship/kira or Platinum Angel type combo to help it out. Something
> that makes it really tough for your opponent to win the game. I just
> don't know what that is yet... :)ed

heh currently it is the whammer, but the whammer usually just gruffily
whams his way to victory
 >> Stay informed about: Does this milling work?