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Next: Trading Cards Jyhad: (DECK) Catatonic Fear Target Vitals Auspex
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External
Since: Jan 29, 2008
Posts: 5
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:40 pm
Post subject: Old layout vs. new layout for new players
Archived from groups: rec>games>trading-cards>jyhad (more info?)
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Hi,
I'm afraid of starting up the old vs. new layout argument all over
again, but here's my situation:
I'm introducing a bunch of new players to V:TES; we don't plan on
collecting it, but just playing all the different preconstructed
starters (I know, probably heresy). We are going to start with the
Camarilla Edition starters, since those seem to be simplest and the
clans are familiar to some of us.
I have enough old cards (pre-Camarilla edition) that it would cost
approximately the same to buy singles of the missing V:TES layout
cards for the precons as it would to simply buy the precons. What I'm
stumbling over is the layout:
on the one hand, I like that if I went with buying the CE starters, I
wouldn't need any errata sheet for people. Also, since some of the
cards in the precons will *have* to be CE layout (such as Harass and
Concealed Weapon), there wouldn't be any mixing of layouts. When we
start adding precons from 3rd edition and other expansions, the
layouts will all match as well.
On the other hand, I greatly prefer the appearance and flavor of the
V:TES layout (especially the cool old crypt backgrounds) to the
current layout, and the CE layout, in my opinion, looks even *worse*
than the current one (hard to distinguish between master cards and
minion cards, and hard to immediately tell if you have reactions in
your hand).
What are other people's thoughts, FOR THIS SPECIFIC SITUATION (trying
to avoid a more general old vs. new layout question)? Any opinions
would be appreciated.
Thanks!
Andrew Stout |
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External
Since: Jan 29, 2008
Posts: 5
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Old layout vs. new layout for new players [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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External
Since: Feb 03, 2005
Posts: 233
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:17 am
Post subject: Re: Old layout vs. new layout for new players [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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External
Since: Feb 05, 2005
Posts: 484
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:46 am
Post subject: Re: Old layout vs. new layout for new players [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Jan 29, 10:40 pm, dragonstou....RemoveThis@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm introducing a bunch of new players to V:TES; we don't plan on
> collecting it, but just playing all the different preconstructed
> starters (I know, probably heresy).
No, not heresy at all. No need to start out a discussion with
assumptions.
> We are going to start with the
> Camarilla Edition starters, since those seem to be simplest and the
> clans are familiar to some of us.
This is a good plan in theory, except:
A) As Jeff noted, the layout is kinda different from the rest of the
"new" layout sets (Masters are grey with a green sidebar--all later
Masters are all green; Vampires have disciplines too low on the card;
sidebars are slightly different than in later sets). Not incredibly
different, but somewhat.
B) Camarilla starters are really hard to get ahold of--they tend to be
very expensive, if you can find them at all. Not 'cause they are super
good or anything, but just 'cause they have been out of print for a
long time.
(are you the same guy who was asking about this on the WW BBS?)
> on the one hand, I like that if I went with buying the CE starters, I
> wouldn't need any errata sheet for people. Also, since some of the
> cards in the precons will *have* to be CE layout (such as Harass and
> Concealed Weapon), there wouldn't be any mixing of layouts. When we
> start adding precons from 3rd edition and other expansions, the
> layouts will all match as well.
I'd just start with 3rd and avoid trying to get the CE all together--
the CE starters aren't neccessarily that good (the Nosferatu one
blows; the Malkavian one is particularly strange; they all have some
weird, not particularly useful vampires in them, as they wanted to
reprint all the G2 Dark Soverigns and Ancient Hearts vampires in the
starters) and again, hard to get. The 3rd decks are readily available
on the retail level and well put together.
-Peter >> Stay informed about: Old layout vs. new layout for new players |
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Since: Jan 29, 2008
Posts: 5
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:43 am
Post subject: Re: Old layout vs. new layout for new players [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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> I'd just start with 3rd and avoid trying to get the CE all together--
> the CE starters aren't neccessarily that good (the Nosferatu one
> blows; the Malkavian one is particularly strange; they all have some
> weird, not particularly useful vampires in them, as they wanted to
> reprint all the G2 Dark Soverigns and Ancient Hearts vampires in the
> starters) and again, hard to get. The 3rd decks are readily available
> on the retail level and well put together.
My problem with this is that, first of all, we'll have more than 4
players, so there aren't enough starters in 3rd for everyone to have a
different clan; and second of all, it seems weird to be playing with !
Brujah and !Malkavian without even being familiar with the normal
Brujah and Malkavians. The fact that you can add on a booster box
would be appealing, if not for the fact that it sounds like collation
is really messed up for the boosters, and the draft effect looks very
distracting (at least for new players, I think). >> Stay informed about: Old layout vs. new layout for new players |
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Since: Feb 08, 2006
Posts: 283
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:56 am
Post subject: Re: Old layout vs. new layout for new players [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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>> I'm introducing a bunch of new players to V:TES; we don't plan on
>> collecting it, but just playing all the different preconstructed
>> starters (I know, probably heresy). We are going to start with the
>> Camarilla Edition starters, since those seem to be simplest and the
>> clans are familiar to some of us.
>
> I would recommend against this.
>
> Camarilla Edition has its own layout that does not match any other set
> ever produced.
>
> Everything printed before has the old layout.
> Everything printed after has the new layout.
>
> I recommend buying starters from sets with the new layout exclusively.
> You will also save a ton of money and have better decks than Camarilla
> Edition offered. For $112, you could get a box of Starters from 3rd
> Edition and a box of boosters. That way you have plenty of good cards
> and plenty of opportunity to change and customize the decks. Change
> and customization are at the heart of collectible card games. Playing
> precons only will wear out very quickly.
Sure, but it's a way for players to try the game out without investing too
much money for starters. Then, of course, they'll get hooked, and will get
into the collectible part later on.
How would I know ? Well, that's what happened to me !! lol. I despised the
collectible part, having seen (but not practiced) the way it could go with
MtG, so I just wanted to play a nice gamer without putting too much money in
it. Of course after a while it's tiring, and then you get other starters and
mix them out, then a few boosters...
But at least it will enable those players to try the game for minimal fee,
and relative balance. I'm all for it if it's a temporary try-out thing.
Of course, as a permanent way of going, Jeff is ubertly right.
--
Orpheus
-----------------------
My story doesn't happen in the sound of the notes
but in the silence between them.
That is where the magic happens.
Echo >> Stay informed about: Old layout vs. new layout for new players |
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Since: Feb 08, 2006
Posts: 283
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:00 am
Post subject: Re: Old layout vs. new layout for new players [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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dragonstout83 RemoveThis @gmail.com wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm afraid of starting up the old vs. new layout argument all over
> again, but here's my situation:
>
> I'm introducing a bunch of new players to V:TES; we don't plan on
> collecting it, but just playing all the different preconstructed
> starters (I know, probably heresy). We are going to start with the
> Camarilla Edition starters, since those seem to be simplest and the
> clans are familiar to some of us.
>
> I have enough old cards (pre-Camarilla edition) that it would cost
> approximately the same to buy singles of the missing V:TES layout
> cards for the precons as it would to simply buy the precons. What I'm
> stumbling over is the layout:
>
> on the one hand, I like that if I went with buying the CE starters, I
> wouldn't need any errata sheet for people. Also, since some of the
> cards in the precons will *have* to be CE layout (such as Harass and
> Concealed Weapon), there wouldn't be any mixing of layouts. When we
> start adding precons from 3rd edition and other expansions, the
> layouts will all match as well.
>
> On the other hand, I greatly prefer the appearance and flavor of the
> V:TES layout (especially the cool old crypt backgrounds) to the
> current layout, and the CE layout, in my opinion, looks even *worse*
> than the current one (hard to distinguish between master cards and
> minion cards, and hard to immediately tell if you have reactions in
> your hand).
>
> What are other people's thoughts, FOR THIS SPECIFIC SITUATION (trying
> to avoid a more general old vs. new layout question)? Any opinions
> would be appreciated.
Definitely go the CE way. The game is complicated enough as it is, and there
will be an errata or two anyway, don't disgust new players from the game by
giving them cards with the wrong card texts !!!
And if you really don't like the CE layout begin with ulterior editions.
There will be few Camarilla clans but there's a new Camarilla expansion
coming soon so that should be no problem. And the Cammies stink anyway. 
Hope that helps.
--
Orpheus
-----------
"Go on. (...) Destroy the fabric of space and time. See if I care. "
-- Terry Pratchett >> Stay informed about: Old layout vs. new layout for new players |
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Since: Jan 30, 2008
Posts: 1
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:07 am
Post subject: Re: Old layout vs. new layout for new players [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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A couple of years a gentleman donated a box of six decks to our
group. They were used primarily for teaching the game, and by the
newer players as they continued to learn the game. I later discovered
they were based on the decks from the Barbed Wire Project:
http://ashheap.storageannex.com/BarbedWireProject.htm
I suggest looking into these decks as primary teaching decks. They
are basic, straightforward decks, featuring the Camarilla clans. They
are effective for play, using only commons and uncommons thus
emphasizing the fact that good decks can be created from easy to find
cards.
I do most of the teaching for our group, typically playing a face-up
one-on-one as an intro: me with the Nosferatu toolbox, them with the
Tremere bruise/bleed. So, they get to both learn, and pummel the
instructor. It's been a successful formula for our group.
Jim >> Stay informed about: Old layout vs. new layout for new players |
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Since: Feb 05, 2005
Posts: 484
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:24 pm
Post subject: Re: Old layout vs. new layout for new players [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article
<00b24bc2-15d3-4acb-9768-7e4610f59cb6.RemoveThis@m34g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
dragonstout83.RemoveThis@gmail.com wrote:
> My problem with this is that, first of all, we'll have more than 4
> players, so there aren't enough starters in 3rd for everyone to have a
> different clan;
That is something, but not a huge issue. If you just use the 4, it is
unlikely much contestation will happen anyway. Or, you could thrown in a
couple Lords of the Night starters. Or Black Hand.
> and second of all, it seems weird to be playing with !
> Brujah and !Malkavian without even being familiar with the normal
> Brujah and Malkavians.
Other than having an "anti" tacked on, there really isn't any difference
at all between the !Malks and the Malks (except that the 3rd !Malk deck
is awesome and the CE Malk deck blows) and the !Brujah and the Brujah
(both of their starters are pretty reasonable).
> The fact that you can add on a booster box
> would be appealing, if not for the fact that it sounds like collation
> is really messed up for the boosters, and the draft effect looks very
> distracting (at least for new players, I think).
The collation was fine. Can't speak for the draft effect, but unless
players are real easily confused (which I suspect is not the case), the
easily identified draft effect is easy to ignore. And I'm pretty sure
that the cards in the starters don't have draft effect text on them
(even if the booster versions do).
Like, if you are set on getting CE starters, I'm not going to try real
hard to dissuade you from that path. But really, the advantages to the
CE starters (6 instead of 4, no "anti" tacked onto the names) strike me
as being vastly outweighed by the disadvatages (hard to get and likely
pretty expensive; not actually that good as starter decks go).
Peter D Bakija
pdb6.RemoveThis@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/vtes.html
"Find hungry samurai."
-The Old Man >> Stay informed about: Old layout vs. new layout for new players |
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External
Since: Jun 02, 2006
Posts: 79
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Old layout vs. new layout for new players [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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dragonstout83.DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote in news:2816f2a1-bdae-4478-ab89-
7ec2a236658f.DeleteThis@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com:
> Hi,
>
> I'm afraid of starting up the old vs. new layout argument all over
> again, but here's my situation:
>
> I'm introducing a bunch of new players to V:TES; we don't plan on
> collecting it, but just playing all the different preconstructed
> starters (I know, probably heresy).
There is _no_ iteration on 'playing VTES' which is heresy, brother...
> We are going to start with the
> Camarilla Edition starters, since those seem to be simplest and the
> clans are familiar to some of us.
>
> I have enough old cards (pre-Camarilla edition) that it would cost
> approximately the same to buy singles of the missing V:TES layout
> cards for the precons as it would to simply buy the precons. What I'm
> stumbling over is the layout:
>
> on the one hand, I like that if I went with buying the CE starters, I
> wouldn't need any errata sheet for people. Also, since some of the
> cards in the precons will *have* to be CE layout (such as Harass and
> Concealed Weapon), there wouldn't be any mixing of layouts. When we
> start adding precons from 3rd edition and other expansions, the
> layouts will all match as well.
>
> On the other hand, I greatly prefer the appearance and flavor of the
> V:TES layout (especially the cool old crypt backgrounds) to the
> current layout, and the CE layout, in my opinion, looks even *worse*
> than the current one (hard to distinguish between master cards and
> minion cards, and hard to immediately tell if you have reactions in
> your hand).
> \
> What are other people's thoughts, FOR THIS SPECIFIC SITUATION (trying
> to avoid a more general old vs. new layout question)? Any opinions
> would be appreciated.
IMO, don't buy what you won't enjoy playing. I'm not in the camp that
takes issue with mixing layouts in a deck, but if thats your 'thing" go
with it...
There's scads of old VTES still out there on Ebay, etc. If you go that
route, and then get the "cam ed vamps in a box" coming out later this
year. Then, you'll get all of the Cam Ed's playability (except for
Zoning Board, etc), and the new layout will be less 'jarring', as you can
build a crypt out of only a single layout, nd your library cahds will all
be in your preferred old layout.
Of course, if you want to play with all the new fun tech in the new
precons (KMW, etc) then the game is up, but thats obvious...
DaveZ >> Stay informed about: Old layout vs. new layout for new players |
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Since: Jan 29, 2008
Posts: 5
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Old layout vs. new layout for new players [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Okay: if I get the 3rd Edition starters, and want to quickly add a few
more *different* starters on for variability, which set (or which
starters from which set) would be next-simplest? I've got a Gangrel
starter; how about the four starters from Legacies of Blood, or Lords
of the Night? Thanks!
Andy >> Stay informed about: Old layout vs. new layout for new players |
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External
Since: Feb 05, 2005
Posts: 484
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Old layout vs. new layout for new players [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article
<b4190b1a-67c4-464b-8c33-cbecc481063a.RemoveThis@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
dragonstout83.RemoveThis@gmail.com wrote:
> Okay: if I get the 3rd Edition starters, and want to quickly add a few
> more *different* starters on for variability, which set (or which
> starters from which set) would be next-simplest? I've got a Gangrel
> starter; how about the four starters from Legacies of Blood, or Lords
> of the Night? Thanks!
The concept of "simplest" isn't really that big of an issue--the game is
complicated, sure, but not so much that the starter decks have huge
learning curves or anything. I'd shy probably away from the Laibon
(Legacies of Blood) and Anarch starters, as they are pretty weird
compared to the other starters (but even then, hardly overwhelming), but
any of the 3rd or Lords of the Night starters are about even, in terms
of complexity.
From 3rd, you got:
-!Malk: Pretty standard Stealth and Bleed. Tends to be very effective.
-!Brujah: Kind of votey and fighty.
-Tzimisce: Kind of blocky and fighty.
-Tremere: Kind of bleedy and fighty.
From LoTN:
-Settite: Stealth and bleedy, and they steal other folks vampires.
-Giovanni: Bleedy and fighty with a bit of vote.
-Ravnos: Kind of bleedy and blocky.
-Assamite: Kind of fighty.
All of these are pretty straight forward.
Peter D Bakija
pdb6.RemoveThis@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/vtes.html
"Find hungry samurai."
-The Old Man >> Stay informed about: Old layout vs. new layout for new players |
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External
Since: Nov 24, 2007
Posts: 27
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Old layout vs. new layout for new players [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Jan 31, 3:47 pm, dragonstou....TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:
> Okay: if I get the 3rd Edition starters, and want to quickly add a few
> more *different* starters on for variability, which set (or which
> starters from which set) would be next-simplest? I've got a Gangrel
> starter; how about the four starters from Legacies of Blood, or Lords
> of the Night? Thanks!
Either of those (LoB or LotN) is a reasonable choice. Most of those
eight decks play fairly easily and fairly well. Almost all the CE
decks are frustratingly bad, as are most of the ones from Anarchs and
Kindred Most Wanted, and some of the Black Hand too. >> Stay informed about: Old layout vs. new layout for new players |
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External
Since: Jan 29, 2008
Posts: 5
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:54 am
Post subject: Re: Old layout vs. new layout for new players [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Jan 31, 6:03 pm, Malone <kffos....DeleteThis@indiana.edu> wrote:
> On Jan 31, 3:47 pm, dragonstou....DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Okay: if I get the 3rd Edition starters, and want to quickly add a few
> > more *different* starters on for variability, which set (or which
> > starters from which set) would be next-simplest? I've got a Gangrel
> > starter; how about the four starters from Legacies of Blood, or Lords
> > of the Night? Thanks!
>
> Either of those (LoB or LotN) is a reasonable choice. Most of those
> eight decks play fairly easily and fairly well. Almost all the CE
> decks are frustratingly bad, as are most of the ones from Anarchs and
> Kindred Most Wanted, and some of the Black Hand too.
How is the Baali starter deck (just have a chance to pick it up
cheap)? Thanks, sorry for asking so many newb-y questions!
Andy >> Stay informed about: Old layout vs. new layout for new players |
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Since: Feb 05, 2005
Posts: 484
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Old layout vs. new layout for new players [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article
<d18de82e-cb89-4966-a82e-500c99b61052.DeleteThis@m34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
dragonstout83.DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote:
> How is the Baali starter deck (just have a chance to pick it up
> cheap)? Thanks, sorry for asking so many newb-y questions!
Kinda crazy. Really hard to do well with, but at the very least has some
nice stealth and bleed potential. But being infernal is costly (you have
to pay a pool to untap if you are infernal). But certainly worth picking
up cheap, given the opportunity.
Peter D Bakija
pdb6.DeleteThis@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/vtes.html
"Find hungry samurai."
-The Old Man >> Stay informed about: Old layout vs. new layout for new players |
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