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WTH

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Since: Feb 20, 2005
Posts: 8



(Msg. 286) Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 12:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Finding out about FP advantages (was FP in a nutshell) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: comp>lang>functional, others (more info?)

> One of my major arguments against operator overloading is that they
> provide a form of "code encryption"- the code x + 1 no longer has
> "obvious" meaning. It's meaning depends upon what type x is.

Like all things in the real world, judicious and appropriate use of features
like operator overloading are perfectly acceptable. It is when people abuse
a feature (such as multiple inheritance or operator overloading) that others
then castigate the feature and not the usage of that feature.

A good for instance is my math library which makes extensive usage of
operator overloading, but in a fashion that (imho) is obvious. An example
of my usage of multiple inheritance is my file and script loaders:
CScriptObject derives from CTextScriptParser, CXMLScriptParser,
CBinaryScriptParser.

WTH

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Nathan Mates

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Since: Nov 23, 2004
Posts: 1



(Msg. 287) Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Finding out about FP advantages (was FP in a nutshell) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <81f0f84e.0408270740.78453c5a DeleteThis @posting.google.com>,
Brian Hurt <bhurt DeleteThis @spnz.org> wrote:
>Alot of the problems also came from the fact that they developed their
>own language. The bugginess, lack of features, lack of optimization,
>buggy GC, etc., were all symptoms of this mistake.

Note: going back and reading the original article, you'll note that
this was for the Playstation 2. There are 5 asymmetric processors in
that machine, each with differing capabilities, etc. The postmortem
said they generated code for each of the processors. I would like to
see a not-internally-developed lisp-like language for such a platform.
And one that can do a commercial game at a decent framerate.

C/C++/Assembly are the only officially supported languages for the
PS2. I give Naughty Dog some credit for trying to go their own way.
However, it does not seem to have been the success story for
functional programming in commercial games that FP's proponents would
like to believe.

Nathan Mates
--
<*> Nathan Mates - personal webpage http://www.visi.com/~nathan/
# Programmer at Pandemic Studios -- http://www.pandemicstudios.com/
# NOT speaking for Pandemic Studios. "Care not what the neighbors
# think. What are the facts, and to how many decimal places?" -R.A. Heinlein

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Siegfried Gonzi

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Since: Aug 28, 2004
Posts: 2



(Msg. 288) Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 10:18 am
Post subject: Re: Finding out about FP advantages (was FP in a nutshell) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

WTH wrote:

> > One of my major arguments against operator overloading is that they
> > provide a form of "code encryption"- the code x + 1 no longer has
> > "obvious" meaning. It's meaning depends upon what type x is.
>
> Like all things in the real world, judicious and appropriate use of features
> like operator overloading are perfectly acceptable. It is when people abuse
> a feature (such as multiple inheritance or operator overloading) that others
> then castigate the feature and not the usage of that feature.

What do people exactly understand when speaking of operator overloading. I saw
on google discussions that the following is operator overloading provided the
array "a" is updated in place, e.g. C++

a = a + c*b

As I gather from the google discussions: the aforementioned is not that easily
realizeable in OCaml. How about Scheme for that instance?

Is it right when I say that operator overloading is an issue for the 4 basic
operatiors: +, -, /, * and the assignment operator "="?; and that in operator
overloading there it is prohibited to consume more memory than required for
the task?

Fensterbrett
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Ketil Malde

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Since: Aug 12, 2004
Posts: 8



(Msg. 289) Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 11:35 am
Post subject: Re: Finding out about FP advantages (was FP in a nutshell) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Siegfried Gonzi <siegfried.gonzi.TakeThisOut@stud.uni-graz.at> writes:

> What do people exactly understand when speaking of operator overloading.

Providing user defined functions for special syntactic "operators" in
C++?

> I saw on google discussions that the following is operator
> overloading provided the array "a" is updated in place, e.g. C++

> a = a + c*b

Hmm...perhaps I don't understand it either. Do you have a link?

> Is it right when I say that operator overloading is an issue for the
> 4 basic operatiors: +, -, /, * and the assignment operator "="?;

Also (), [], postfix and prefix increment and decrement, +=, ==,
* (pointer deref), and so on.

> overloading there it is prohibited to consume more memory than
> required for the task?

Not that I know of. See
http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/operator-overloading.html

-kzm
--
If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants
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Gerry Quinn

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Since: Nov 27, 2004
Posts: 799



(Msg. 290) Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 11:36 am
Post subject: Re: Finding out about FP advantages (was FP in a nutshell) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <egwtzjehbi.fsf DeleteThis @dverghimalayaeiner.ii.uib.no>,
ketil DeleteThis @ii.uib.no says...

> Not that I know of. See
> http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/operator-overloading.html

I'm glad someone agrees with me about the distinction between 'library'
code and 'ordinary' code:

<QUOTE>
[13.4] But operator overloading makes my class look ugly; isn't it
supposed to make my code clearer?

Operator overloading makes life easier for the users of a class, not for
the developer of the class!

[--]

Remember: in a reuse-oriented world, there will usually be many people
who use your class, but there is only one person who builds it
(yourself); therefore you should do things that favor the many rather
than the few.
<END QUOTE>

- Gerry Quinn
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Siegfried Gonzi

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Since: Aug 28, 2004
Posts: 2



(Msg. 291) Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 11:47 am
Post subject: Re: Finding out about FP advantages (was FP in a nutshell) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Ketil Malde wrote:

>
> > a = a + c*b
>
> Hmm...perhaps I don't understand it either. Do you have a link?

Somewhere in between (scroll a bit down):

http://pauillac.inria.fr/~aschmitt/cwn/2002.10.22.html

But as far as I remember the above is also not easily realized in C++ due to
alaising? But I cannot remember the details.

Fensterbrett
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Marshall Spight

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Since: Aug 30, 2004
Posts: 1



(Msg. 292) Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:39 am
Post subject: Re: OO vs. FP [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Andreas Rossberg" <rossberg.TakeThisOut@ps.uni-sb.de> wrote in message news:b20b8d03.0408150339.3a9a6399@posting.google.com...
> "cr88192" <cr88192.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > type inference is a pita to implement afaik.
>
> It is relatively straight-forward if you design the language
> approriately. It is almost impossible for OOPLs, though.

Can you expand on that? What does one need to do (or not do)
in a language's design to make it "appropriate" for type inference?


Marshall
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Philippa Cowderoy

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Since: May 10, 2004
Posts: 19



(Msg. 293) Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 1:58 pm
Post subject: Re: OO vs. FP [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004, Marshall Spight wrote:

> "Andreas Rossberg" <rossberg.RemoveThis@ps.uni-sb.de> wrote in message news:b20b8d03.0408150339.3a9a6399@posting.google.com...
> > "cr88192" <cr88192.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > type inference is a pita to implement afaik.
> >
> > It is relatively straight-forward if you design the language
> > approriately. It is almost impossible for OOPLs, though.
>
> Can you expand on that? What does one need to do (or not do)
> in a language's design to make it "appropriate" for type inference?
>

Design it with a type system that fits into one of the known frameworks
for type inference (eg HM(X)).

--
flippa.RemoveThis@flippac.org
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Andreas Rossberg

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Since: Aug 12, 2004
Posts: 18



(Msg. 294) Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 11:19 am
Post subject: Re: OO vs. FP [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Marshall Spight wrote:
>>
>>>type inference is a pita to implement afaik.
>>
>>It is relatively straight-forward if you design the language
>>approriately. It is almost impossible for OOPLs, though.
>
> Can you expand on that? What does one need to do (or not do)
> in a language's design to make it "appropriate" for type inference?

Well, generally speaking, inference is easy with a language that has a
regular structure and a compositional type system that is "accurate" in
the sense that every expression form has a unique principal type that
subsumes all possible uses, and it does not matter in what order you
look at subexpressions to derive type information.

Some random counterexamples making type inference harder are:

- implicit conversions (as opposed to explicit ones),
- ad-hoc overloading (as opposed to more structured forms thereof),
- subtype polymorphism (as opposed to parametric polymorphism),
- nominal types (as opposed to structural types),
- tuples as lists (as opposed to a proper conceptual separation).

Hope this gives the general idea.

Cheers,

- Andreas

--
Andreas Rossberg, rossberg DeleteThis @ps.uni-sb.de

Let's get rid of those possible thingies! -- TB
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payday loan

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Since: Mar 28, 2005
Posts: 1



(Msg. 295) Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:16 am
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Since: Mar 28, 2005
Posts: 1



(Msg. 296) Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:03 pm
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