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Brandon J. Van Every

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Since: May 28, 2004
Posts: 42



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 2:36 pm
Post subject: intelligence is a search for satisfaction
Archived from groups: comp>ai>philosophy, others (more info?)

42. Smile

And yes, it's cross-posted for a reason.

I've been doing a lot of voter registration lately... which is boring, and
low paying, which causes me to goof off once I'm done working. So, quite a
lot of Galactic Civilizations and not a lot of OCaml progress. It is not a
loss though. I've been keeping a notebook of all the ways GalCiv is boring,
and how I'm going to fix them. This has led me to a profound insight on the
nature of intelligence and searching, not to mention game design.

GalCiv suffers from the "unit pushing problem." As a human being, I spend
the vast majority of my time futzing with whether this unit is 7 squares
away from that enemy unit. In a world of better game AI, it wouldn't be so
hard to compute regions of safety from enemy units. However, then I'd still
have to make a lot of decisions about where to put my units. I envision an
architecture with lotsa set operations on regions. While planning the
architecture, I notice its O(bad) algorithmic behavior, where 'bad' might be
n^4, some higher polynomial, or maybe exponential. All depends on how much
thinking I want to do, and how much I'm willing to limit the scope of my
problems. Maybe I can have my clean architecture if I settle for a board of
only 16x16 squares. Maybe that is what a current PC can handle.

The operations required are all rather rote, basic computations. Just
computing distances from one thing to another. This makes me consider how
much the human brain is simply a more powerful computer, with better analog
sensing equipment, and thus able to leverage physics (light, heat, contact
forces) as part of the computing process. We do lotsa things that aren't
very complicated, it's just gazillions of operations in parallel. Our
brains point out how puny our computers really are, great as they may seem
for problems we're not so good at.

Some day we'll have enough silicon gates to equal a human brain. If Moore's
Law holds we'll have 'em soon. Even if Moore's Law fails at some point in
the future, there is too much industrial interest in the capability. It'll
happen, even if we have to go back to building-sized computers to get things
done. Of course, each and every one of us has working proof of concept that
these computers need not be building-sized. If silicon computing doesn't do
it, biological computing will.

Given the gates, will we have 'intelligence' ? What is 'intelligence' ?

I say, we will. Because 'intelligence' is merely a search for satisfaction.
We have been trying to get satisfaction for millions of years. That's why
we're at where we're at on the food chain. Searching for satisfaction is an
evolutionary advantage; we have been "selected for" our willingness to
search.

Searches take the form of trial and error until better methods are refined.
The first searches weren't rocket science: pick up a stick and bash another
monkey in the head with it. Good way to secure your food, water, and mates.
But refined for generations upon generations, with brains proving more adept
at storage and symbolic manipulations, and you arrive at the ICBM. Of
course there are many other evolutionary stimulants besides warfare. My
point is just that the seemingly complicated modern forms of 'intelligence'
have their bootstrapping root in fairly simple animal behaviors. That's the
magic of evolution: it gets more complicated as life goes on.

We are also not so complicated if you thought about humanity from the
perspective of a 'God'. By 'God' I just mean something much higher up the
evolutionary ladder than we currently are. Notice all the tedious,
repetitive tasks in your life? Notice how humanity's problems are so basic?
Like "Gee we don't feed everybody" even though we grow enough food to do so.
Notice how few people aspire to much of anything? Notice that even the ones
that do, will mostly be erased by history in 100 years or so? Maybe 1000
years if they're particularly profound. Education being the province of the
wealthy, there was less philosophical competition in Aristotle's time. Wink

Do you see the cockroach in your own life? Where is your 'intelligence' ?
You are simply searching for satisfaction, at the evolutionary level you are
capable of doing so.

If intelligence is about searching for satisfaction, and everyone wants to
be satisfied, why aren't more people smarter? Well, the species doesn't
really need everyone to be smart to propagate. In fact, it's probably
advantageous to the species, or at least to its smarter members, to have a
lot of dumber drones doing their bidding. There's probably an optimum smart
/ dumb ratio under any given economic regime. The current regime is global
capitalism; has the ratio changed that much from provincial monarchs
ordering uneducated peasants around? Probably not by so much, considering
how much of the world is still in poverty while producing goods and services
for industrialized nations. Not trying to grind a political axe here, just
trying to point out what 'intelligence' in our species really is.

At any rate, the 'smartest' among us are just algorithmically compulsive.
We search because we have a biological drive to search. Many searches are
tried. Some 'succeed', meaning they displace paradigms.

Even global capitalism might be displaced someday. What would we do with a
technology that allowed us to easily grow food anywhere? Or get energy
cheaply anywhere? Or manufacture lotsa things cheaply anywhere? Of course,
we could also use these things to edit ourselves out of existence. Smile
Natural Selection at least has the benefit of promoting stable designs
rather than wild experiments!

How does this relate to OCaml?

Well, I've said before, I'm not sure that 'programming languages' are really
the answer as far as productivity goes. I've wondered if OCaml is not the
answer, but the thing that will lead me to the answer.

Maybe what we really need are architectures that can handle massive search
spaces. Profoundly stated, all programming language research as we know it
today may be an evolutionary dead end. Why should we tie algorithmic search
to the quaintness of what human beings can type at a keyboard and see on a
2D screen? Why do things with our parochial human notions of 'syntax' or
other linguistic constructs? Just so that human beings can understand and
verify what's going on? Isn't that always going to be a 'cottage industry'
approach to computation?

Ok, so, let's say you're more interested in the here and now than 20 years
hence. I will be thinking about what OCaml does or doesn't do to handle
search problems. Turn Based Strategy games are the particular search
problems I'm working on right now. They're difficult; it'll be interesting
to see how much of the architecture is better done in a higher level
language, and how much as inflexible but massively high performance low
level computation.


Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

"The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back."
- anonymous entrepreneur

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Gerry Quinn

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Since: Nov 27, 2004
Posts: 799



(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:19 pm
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In article <2nnk2fF2nut4U1.RemoveThis@uni-berlin.de>,
try_vanevery_at_mycompanyname.RemoveThis@yahoo.com says...
>
> I say, we will. Because 'intelligence' is merely a search for satisfaction.
> We have been trying to get satisfaction for millions of years. That's why
> we're at where we're at on the food chain. Searching for satisfaction is an
> evolutionary advantage; we have been "selected for" our willingness to
> search.

According to the 'Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy', flying was simply a
matter of throwing yourself at the ground - and missing. Maybe
intelligence is searching for satisfaction, and missing? Okay, enough
philosophy.

> Searches take the form of trial and error until better methods are refined.
> The first searches weren't rocket science: pick up a stick and bash another
> monkey in the head with it. Good way to secure your food, water, and mates.
> But refined for generations upon generations, with brains proving more adept
> at storage and symbolic manipulations, and you arrive at the ICBM.

> Maybe what we really need are architectures that can handle massive search
> spaces. Profoundly stated, all programming language research as we know it
> today may be an evolutionary dead end. Why should we tie algorithmic search
> to the quaintness of what human beings can type at a keyboard and see on a
> 2D screen? Why do things with our parochial human notions of 'syntax' or
> other linguistic constructs? Just so that human beings can understand and
> verify what's going on? Isn't that always going to be a 'cottage industry'
> approach to computation?

Well, our programming techniques are a bit more complicated than that.
One way of looking at programming something complicated like a game is
that is is a case of creating a new language that is appropriate to the
problem. C++ and Ocaml don't have GetShortestPath keywords, but your
map manipulation class (in either) will have a function that does it.
When you use it you are writing in a higher level language that is good
for war games.

Of course, shortest path algorithms [or maybe for this example,
influence map algorithms] are trivial, but once you have them you can
start working on the trickier GetSafeLocation() functions. At that
point you'll be into real AI...

> Ok, so, let's say you're more interested in the here and now than 20 years
> hence. I will be thinking about what OCaml does or doesn't do to handle
> search problems. Turn Based Strategy games are the particular search
> problems I'm working on right now. They're difficult; it'll be interesting
> to see how much of the architecture is better done in a higher level
> language, and how much as inflexible but massively high performance low
> level computation.

Every journey begins with a single step. If you only know roughly where
you are going, you can still start building the basic components of your
new language.

One reason I like C++ is that it gives you a relatively free hand with
the syntax of the languages you build with it!

Gerry Quinn
http://bindweed.com
Games, Kaleidoscopes, and Screensavers
Try Chomp! - the new game of logical deduction

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Brandon J. Van Every

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Since: May 28, 2004
Posts: 42



(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:19 pm
Post subject: Re: intelligence is a search for satisfaction [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Gerry Quinn wrote:
>
> Of course, shortest path algorithms [or maybe for this example,
> influence map algorithms] are trivial, but once you have them you can
> start working on the trickier GetSafeLocation() functions. At that
> point you'll be into real AI...

Not really. It's just more map crunching. It all depends on what is meant
by 'real' here. I did say we should embrace our inner cockroach. "We're
all just crunching."

> One reason I like C++ is that it gives you a relatively free hand with
> the syntax of the languages you build with it!

I think the OCaml guys would scoff at that. OCaml is proven at creating
domain-specific languages; it is definitely a "language maker's" tool.
That's part of why I've thought it may not be the answer, but it may lead me
to the answer. So I'll keep going with it for awhile, even if something
turns sour.

--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

"The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back."
- anonymous entrepreneur
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Peter Ashford

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Since: Aug 01, 2004
Posts: 1



(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:32 pm
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<snip>

Sorry to ignore the point of most of your post, but how are you finding
OCaml? I had a brief look at it recently, but not enough to judge it.
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Brandon J. Van Every

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Since: May 28, 2004
Posts: 42



(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:32 pm
Post subject: Re: how I find OCaml (was: intelligence is a search for sati [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: comp>lang>functional, others (more info?)

Peter Ashford wrote:
> <snip>
>
> Sorry to ignore the point of most of your post, but how are you
> finding OCaml? I had a brief look at it recently, but not enough to
> judge it.

Rigorously applying my infamous top-down managerial style, I still haven't
written a line of code in it. Smile I have made plenty of progress with it,
however. Lotsa reading of the manuals and orchestrating tools and
libraries. It should be realized that I didn't just have to swallow OCaml,
I also had to swallow the Functional Programming paradigm. I think I sorta
get it; I won't strongly get it until I'm actually coding. Also I detoured
through SML for a time, but OCaml has got the viable community so I switched
back. For instance it has an OpenGL binding called LablGL which looks
reasonable, although I haven't delved deeply into it yet. In SML/NJ land I
would have had to create the binding using experimental tools. Maybe that
would work; possibly it wouldn't, and probably it would take a lot of time.

I get closer to understanding the performance implications of OCaml and how
to tie it to low level C code. The C FFI is not so great, it's kinda
clunky. Basically one needs to go through this thingy called Bigarray to
get the performance. Bigarray understands simple native C types, unlike the
rest of OCaml. However, you must use them in simple arrays of all ints or
all floats. To process game maps this is still viable, however. The
"flexible stuff" I'll do in OCaml proper, but map crunching probably needs
to be in some kind of low level, high performance C code. I want a map
crunching architecture that's very simple so that I don't have to write a
lot of that C code. I'm still working on the design. Coding happens when I
finally understand how the problem must be solved.

ML Seattle continues to meet on a 3 week basis. Tentatively we'll be
meeting again on Tuesday, August 17th.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mlseattle/


--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

Taking risk where others will not.
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Donn Cave

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Since: Aug 10, 2004
Posts: 2



(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:41 am
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In article <2nrmosF3thv2U1.RemoveThis@uni-berlin.de>,
"Brandon J. Van Every" <try_vanevery_at_mycompanyname.RemoveThis@yahoo.com>
wrote:
....
> I was unable to find a language that had it all. OCaml has most of it. I
> figure if I get farther and farther into OCaml, eventually I might fix
> whatever's broken about it. It is open source, after all.
....
> OCaml's syntax is baroque, but not as bad as C++.

It's worse. C++ may have a lot of keywords and confusing semantics,
but at the basic level of writing out expressions and having what
you wrote turn out to be what you meant, the syntactic structure is
not a big problem.

Objective CAML is probably simpler to parse, if you're a computer,
but its syntax has this stupid problem that I imagine it must have
inherited from ML, that makes structure ambiguous. E.g. (hope I
remember enough to get away with this),

match k with
0) -> Printf "k 0\n"; True
1) -> Printf "k 1\n"; False

Now, is that the same as

(
match k with
0) -> Printf "k 0\n"; True
1) -> Printf "k 1\n"; False
)

or

(
match k with
0) -> Printf "k 0\n"; True
1) -> Printf "k 1\n"
);
False

I don't know. I would have to write a test program. I think
it's the first, because I recall that explicit block notation
at the bottom level doesn't change a thing,

1) -> BEGIN Printf "k 1\n" END;
False -- same story, it's really part of 1) -> {}

Not everyone thinks this is a serious problem, maybe only myself,
but I think it's enough to qualify Objective CAML for seriously
broken syntax.

The ocaml compiler is very good as far as I'm concerned, really
emphatically the best by far of any functional language I have
tried to use, so it's too bad Objective CAML is not more appealing.
I've wondered if there couldn't be some way to build a different
language on ocaml, something like Haskell with a native string
type like Python's (not like Objective CAML) and reactive objects
like O'Haskell. And useful tracebacks from the top level exception
handler.

Donn Cave, donn.RemoveThis@u.washington.edu
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Siegfried Gonzi

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Since: Aug 15, 2004
Posts: 8



(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:11 am
Post subject: Re: how I find OCaml (was: intelligence is a search for sati [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Brandon J. Van Every" wrote:

> I get closer to understanding the performance implications of OCaml and how
> to tie it to low level C code. The C FFI is not so great, it's kinda
> clunky.

Can you elaborate a bit on that. What do you miss from the FFI?

Is the OCaml FFI itself flawed or is it cumbersome to take workarounds?

I have never used the OCaml FFI. I use sometimes Bigloo its one.

What is your subjective feeling of the readability of OCaml code? I gather from
your posts that you eagerly are reading and studying OCaml code. When I was
reading other's OCaml code I always felt that there is something wrong with
their attitude: I mean what is bad concerning giving type annotations. Cleaners
do it all the time. The other day I started to type even my Bigloo code; the
latter tremendously improves managing the code but I have got always the
freedom of Scheme programming if I like.

Do you feel that the code in the OCaml distributuion is worth the reading. If
one believes in the following link then one of the important things when using
alternative languages is their quality of code of the distribution itself.
However, I am not a professional programmer (you know: I am an academic ass in
a physics departement) but I imagine that professional programmers learn from
code which comes with the distribution:

http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=40FCBDA...CDC11FE

Fensterbrett
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Philippa Cowderoy

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Since: May 10, 2004
Posts: 19



(Msg. 8) Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:40 am
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Archived from groups: comp>ai>philosophy, others (more info?)

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, Peter Ashford wrote:

> In what way does OCaml eclipse that kind of tool creation ability that
> you get from OO languages?
>

I'll answer for Haskell, as I don't use ML much, but some of the points
still stand:

1) There are excellent parsing tools available - in particular, this seems
to be where Spirit got its inspiration from

2) The pattern-matching facilities, which operate on any data type. They
make mildly complicated transformations on trees and graphs an absolute
doddle.

3) Higher-order functions make it easier to build up code at run-time.

4) Techniques such as monads and monad transformers make it even easier -
you can build the semantics of your DSL piece-by-piece.

5) The type systems are more suited to this kind of work.

--
flippa.DeleteThis@flippac.org
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Peter Ashford

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Since: May 12, 2004
Posts: 43



(Msg. 9) Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:20 pm
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>
>>One reason I like C++ is that it gives you a relatively free hand with
>>the syntax of the languages you build with it!
>
>
> I think the OCaml guys would scoff at that. OCaml is proven at creating
> domain-specific languages; it is definitely a "language maker's" tool.
> That's part of why I've thought it may not be the answer, but it may lead me
> to the answer. So I'll keep going with it for awhile, even if something
> turns sour.
>

That's interesting. I was agreeing with Gerry insofar as any OO
language kind of is building up a language to solve your problem (if you
accept that the objects you build become effectively an extension to the
core language)

In what way does OCaml eclipse that kind of tool creation ability that
you get from OO languages?
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Brandon J. Van Every

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Since: May 28, 2004
Posts: 42



(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:20 pm
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Archived from groups: comp>lang>functional, others (more info?)

Peter Ashford wrote:
>>> One reason I like C++ is that it gives you a relatively free hand
>>> with the syntax of the languages you build with it!
>>
>>
>> I think the OCaml guys would scoff at that. OCaml is proven at
>> creating domain-specific languages; it is definitely a "language
>> maker's" tool. That's part of why I've thought it may not be the
>> answer, but it may lead me to the answer. So I'll keep going with
>> it for awhile, even if something turns sour.
>>
>
> That's interesting. I was agreeing with Gerry insofar as any OO
> language kind of is building up a language to solve your problem (if
> you accept that the objects you build become effectively an extension
> to the core language)
>
> In what way does OCaml eclipse that kind of tool creation ability that
> you get from OO languages?

OCaml is an OO language. That's what the 'O' is for. It will also allow
you to code imperatively, you don't have to use the Functional paradigm.
Basically you can do what you like, whatever is appropriate to your problem
and suitable to your current mode of thinking / understanding. So if
there's an 'eclipse', it's that you have more options at your disposal.

Also OCaml has pattern matching, which is quite a bit more built-in
expressive power than anything C++ has. Also it has Functors and
Parameterized Classes, which make C++ Templates seem pretty brittle and lame
by comparison.

Also OCaml is a "language writer's language." I'm not sure how people
actually use it to write their domain-specific langauges, as I don't really
know much of anything about writing languages. People seem to do stuff with
a macro preprocessor called CamlP4. I do know that OCaml is proven for use
among language theorists, that dealing with 'languages for programming' is a
core strength / point of what is done with it. In other words, it has a
strong academic pedigree for such jobs. Unfortunately these aren't my
problems, I'm into 3D graphics, AI, and games.

That said, intereresting work is being done with OCaml. There's some
paradigm called Generative Programming and some thingy called MetaOCaml,
which I haven't looked into deeply yet. http://www.metaocaml.org/ I'll be
researching this as part of my long term strategy for "where we're supposed
to go with computers." But right now I'm still on OCaml basics, not OCaml
guruism.

The other upcoming paradigm shift that I think will be incredibly important
is fullblown voice recognition and voice synthesis. If we get to the point
where we can *talk* to our computers with 100% accuracy, that's going to
change commerce fundamentally. I don't know if there's going to be some
other Next Big Thing before then, but when we have full voice, it'll be like
the dot.com boom.

This is all reminiscent of some tech tree in a 4X TBS, where you're
wondering which tech you should research next to gain the most advantage.
Smile More difficult when you don't know all the pros and cons of the techs
in advance!

--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

"The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back."
- anonymous entrepreneur
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Erik Max Francis

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Since: Feb 18, 2005
Posts: 71



(Msg. 11) Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:20 pm
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"Brandon J. Van Every" wrote:

> But right now I'm still on OCaml basics, not OCaml
> guruism.

Maybe you should actually take the outrageously daring move of writing
an actual line of code in OCaml?

--
__ Erik Max Francis && max DeleteThis @alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/ \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
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Siegfried Gonzi

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Since: Aug 15, 2004
Posts: 8



(Msg. 12) Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:27 pm
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"Brandon J. Van Every" wrote:

>
> These warts can be worked around. There's a module called Bigarray that
> will allow you to have unboxed arrays of native 32-bit integer types, or
> 32-bit floats. The purpose is to make it easier to pass data back and forth
> to C or Fortran programs. The problem is you can only have an array of the
> simple type. You can't have C structures, which is often what you really
> want an array of. These limitations aren't insurmountable to the game
> designer, if you're creating your own design. They'd be a bitch for
> interfacing to someone else's code though.
>

As far as I can remember that also plagues Bigloo. Some do not consider Bigloo
a legal Scheme programming language out of that reason.

But Tim jr. (the man behind the PHP/Bigloo compiler and the link was given in
my last post) once posted a workaround on the Bigloo mailing list. He used some
external C types. Surely, the situation still remains "wacky" especially for
people who come from another Scheme camp. But one must honestly say, that the
Bigloo manual never hides that shortcomming of 31-bit integers.

I once tried to make a binding between OCaml and the plotting library DISLIN.
But as you wrote, I was a bit irritated by the passing scheme when there were
more than 5 variables in an external C function. I never grasped that scheme;
surely OCaml by nature is much more complex than Bigloo I assume and
communicating with external C code is not that easy.

In the meantime I have completed the binding to DISLIN but for Bigloo.
Integrating C code in Bigloo was easy. The binding now is as comfortable to use
as the one for Python/DISLIN.



>
>
> Because most of the time you shouldn't need to type extra words. Compilers
> can usually figure this stuff out. Why should we do lotsa extra boring
> manual labor for the compiler's benefit? It's a machine, it doesn't get
> bored, it should make our coding job easier.

It is not so much the typing issue itself rather it is something like
"documenting my own code".

I much prefer something like the following:

==
(define (do-this var::double s::bstring saro::vector bul::pair)
)
==

over:

==
(define (do-this var s saro bul)
)
==

The OCaml lacks such an "educational" style. This was in stark contrast to the
Clean manuals.


Out of curiosity: how many people attended your first ML meeting?

Fensterbrett
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Gerry Quinn

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Since: Nov 27, 2004
Posts: 799



(Msg. 13) Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:02 pm
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In article <2npsk1F3gnj8U1 RemoveThis @uni-berlin.de>,
try_vanevery_at_mycompanyname RemoveThis @yahoo.com says...
> Gerry Quinn wrote:
> >
> > Of course, shortest path algorithms [or maybe for this example,
> > influence map algorithms] are trivial, but once you have them you can
> > start working on the trickier GetSafeLocation() functions. At that
> > point you'll be into real AI...
>
> Not really. It's just more map crunching. It all depends on what is meant
> by 'real' here. I did say we should embrace our inner cockroach. "We're
> all just crunching."

It's not obvious to me how to define a safe location, or that such a
definition is even possible. What is safe depends on a lot of
circumstances. It's a fuzzy problem, whereas a shortest path analysis
just involves plugging in a standard algorithm.

> > One reason I like C++ is that it gives you a relatively free hand with
> > the syntax of the languages you build with it!
>
> I think the OCaml guys would scoff at that. OCaml is proven at creating
> domain-specific languages; it is definitely a "language maker's" tool.
> That's part of why I've thought it may not be the answer, but it may lead me
> to the answer. So I'll keep going with it for awhile, even if something
> turns sour.

Well, maybe both C++ and Ocaml have this property. My own view is that
designing and programming games is hard, and so long as your language is
powerful, scales well, and is not too awful, it's not the problem. Of
course you think C++ is too awful - I'm happy to stick with it.

- Gerry Quinn
 >> Stay informed about: intelligence is a search for satisfaction 
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Brandon J. Van Every

External


Since: May 28, 2004
Posts: 42



(Msg. 14) Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:02 pm
Post subject: Re: intelligence is a search for satisfaction [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Gerry Quinn wrote:
> In article <2npsk1F3gnj8U1.RemoveThis@uni-berlin.de>,
> try_vanevery_at_mycompanyname.RemoveThis@yahoo.com says...
>> Gerry Quinn wrote:
>>>
>>> Of course, shortest path algorithms [or maybe for this example,
>>> influence map algorithms] are trivial, but once you have them you
>>> can start working on the trickier GetSafeLocation() functions. At
>>> that point you'll be into real AI...
>>
>> Not really. It's just more map crunching. It all depends on what
>> is meant by 'real' here. I did say we should embrace our inner
>> cockroach. "We're all just crunching."
>
> It's not obvious to me how to define a safe location, or that such a
> definition is even possible. What is safe depends on a lot of
> circumstances. It's a fuzzy problem, whereas a shortest path analysis
> just involves plugging in a standard algorithm.

Having more constraints, and not being completely solveable, doesn't make it
any more than a number crunching problem. From a goal oriented standpoint,
all that really matters is that it's computed to be "safe enough to win the
game." And if that doesn't pan out in practice, it just has to be "safe
enough to have seemingly put up a good fight." Look at a real war. You
know the joke about Military Intelligence, right?

--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
 >> Stay informed about: intelligence is a search for satisfaction 
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Gerry Quinn

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Since: Nov 27, 2004
Posts: 799



(Msg. 15) Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:18 pm
Post subject: Re: intelligence is a search for satisfaction [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: comp>lang>functional, others (more info?)

In article <2nribhF3pupgU1 RemoveThis @uni-berlin.de>,
try_vanevery_at_mycompanyname RemoveThis @yahoo.com says...
> Peter Ashford wrote:
> >
> > In what way does OCaml eclipse that kind of tool creation ability that
> > you get from OO languages?
>
> OCaml is an OO language. That's what the 'O' is for. It will also allow
> you to code imperatively, you don't have to use the Functional paradigm.
> Basically you can do what you like, whatever is appropriate to your problem
> and suitable to your current mode of thinking / understanding. So if
> there's an 'eclipse', it's that you have more options at your disposal.
>
> Also OCaml has pattern matching, which is quite a bit more built-in
> expressive power than anything C++ has. Also it has Functors and
> Parameterized Classes, which make C++ Templates seem pretty brittle and lame
> by comparison.

Doesn't this go back to a comment you made earlier, though - the things
computer languages express are not the same as the things we want to
express?

At some stage you're going to be writing a function that in C++ might
look like:

Map::GetShortestPath( const Location & startLoc, const Location &
endLoc, vector< Location > & path )

And in C++ or Ocaml, it's going to have a similar I/O format, and be
algorithmically similar under the hood.

- Gerry Quinn
 >> Stay informed about: intelligence is a search for satisfaction 
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