So when do you guys play DS, anyway?

And when it was 2005-05-06, illusion
<d5ganv$ki3$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk> was created,
stating that The Triad <wanderer RemoveThis @beeb.web>
uttered in alt.games.creatures:

> "emmel" <the_emmel*whatever*@gmx.net> wrote in message
> news:slrnd7m5r0.1s4.the_emmel*whatever*@storm.mlnet...
>> And when it was 2005-05-04, illusion
>> <d5a0os$3kj$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk> was created,
>> stating that The Triad <wanderer RemoveThis @beeb.web>
>> uttered in alt.games.creatures:
>>
>>> "emmel" <the_emmel*whatever*@gmx.net> wrote in message
>>> news:slrnd7etg1.m82.the_emmel*whatever*@btcipinf24.cip.uni-bayreuth.de...
>>>> On 2005-05-03, The Triad <wanderer RemoveThis @beeb.web> wrote:
>>>>> "emmel" <the_emmel*whatever*@gmx.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:slrnd7ckum.4uj.the_emmel*whatever*@btcipinf17.cip.uni-bayreuth.de...
>>>>>> On 2005-05-02, The Triad <wanderer RemoveThis @beeb.web> wrote:
>>>>>>> "Thomas J. Boschloo" <nospam RemoveThis @hccnet.nl.invalid> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:4273e75f$0$155$3a628fcd@reader2.nntp.hccnet.nl...
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Vector computers can solve matrixes real fast. emmel also has a
>>>>>>>> point
>>>>>>>> though! Distributed computing is getting more and more common (in
>>>>>>>> fact
>>>>>>>> the next AMD processor will have no less than one, no, _two_
>>>>>>>> cores!).
>>>>>>>> You need a massive gigabit network between the processors though for
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> to work..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, why? For that kind of thing you don't need that much inter
>>>>>> process
>>>>>> communication. The cells should be quite independents from each other.
>>>>>> At least enough to make processor power more important than band
>>>>>> width.
>>>>>> And anyway, the question isn't bandwidth, but latency.
>>>>>
>>>>> *nods* (And while the atmosphere /could/ be made much more
>>>>> complicated--though also more realistic--and require a lot of computing
>>>>> power, I doubt that it would be necessary to implement the basic
>>>>> records
>>>>> of
>>>>> how much of each gas is where.)
>>>>
>>>> Depends on how exakt you do it.
>>>
>>> True.
>>>
>>>> And then, of course you wanted wind. Hm,
>>>> we might need a vector computer after all...
>>>
>>> Eh. Not yet--not wind as we know it. Just the gasses handled so that a
>>> smell would be more likely to go away from the source of air, in the
>>> direction of its sink. That could be handled by a few simple rules about
>>> how the CAs would affect each other, and cross the relevant borders.
>>
>> No, not really. When you start introducing special rules... you are
>> making things more difficult than they should be. That's top down and no
>> longer bottom up.
>
> True, but I /thought/ that it was relatively bottom-up... not that special.

Well, anyone can err.

> If there're more molecules of gas in one volume of space, and another volume
> of space next to it with fewer molecules of gas in it, then won't more gas
> go from the first space to the second than vice versa (though, of course,
> some will)? How would you implement it, with a bottom-up approach?

Wind, you mean? You'd have to implement the gases not as concentrations,
but as particles with own coordinates and impulse. Then you'd have to
compute collisions between the particles as well... top down you'd
probably give it a few dynamics by calculating the stream you get every
tick and let that influence the stream of the next tick - which still
wouldn't be able to effect norns, though. You'd have to program any bit
that is subject to wind to honor that data. Better to go without wind
after all.

>>> Wind... true wind, that Norns could feel ruffle their fur... that's a
>>> long
>>> way off yet.
>>
>> We can dream of it. I can almost see it
>
> *smiles, eyes gleaming*

?
--
emmel <the_emmel*you-know-what-that's-for*@gmx.net>
(Don't forget to remove the ** bit)

Official AGC feedback maniac

"God is playing creatures - and we're the norns."

"A hundred dead are a tragedy - a hundred thousand are statistics."

"I guess you can call yourself lucky." -
"I could, but Linda suits me a little better...
Things called lucky tend to get hit by trucks."

Hi, I'm a .sig virus. Just copy me to your .signature. And don't worry.

And when it was 2005-05-06, illusion
<d5gaju$kbb$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk> was created,
stating that The Triad <wanderer DeleteThis @beeb.web>
uttered in alt.games.creatures:

> "emmel" <the_emmel*whatever*@gmx.net> wrote in message
> news:slrnd7m5l8.1s4.the_emmel*whatever*@storm.mlnet...
>> And when it was 2005-05-04, illusion
>> <d5a6ue$1vj$1$830fa7a5@news.demon.co.uk> was created,
>> stating that The Triad <wanderer DeleteThis @beeb.web>
>> uttered in alt.games.creatures:
>>
>>>>>>>>> *wonders how exactly one does/would do a full test search*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Erm, *text*, not test. Sorry for me tyoping in such a confusing way.
>>>>>>>> Again.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oh.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does one open it in notepad?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> grep
>>>>>
>>>>> (What?)
>>>>
>>>> Best way to do it is grep. Notepad is useless, it can only search one
>>>> file.
>>>
>>> Ah. Where does one get or how does one use grep?
>>
>> Erm, it comes with every proper OS... I guess there's the one or other
>> way to get it for windows, but I can't point you anywere specific. I
>> guess the windows search function works out as well for that kind of
>> thing.
>
> Ah. *tired and sleepy after staying up yesterday to watch the election
> results*

So, anything new?

>>>>>>>>> And can you run Creatures on it?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course I can.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ...with graphics? [/ignorant]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Beautifully rendered ASCII art, of course. What did *you* think. Some
>>>>>> people...
>>>>>
>>>>> You're being sarcastic?
>>>>
>>>> I'd gove you a sarcatic answer, but for the sake of clearness: yes.
>>>
>>> Ah. *nods sightly*
>>>
>>>> Though it should be easy enough to use ASCII art instead of the usual
>>>> graphics.
>>>
>>> Not very comprehensibly, though, unless each character was /really/
>>> small.
>>
>> Oh, I have a *bit* more than just 80x25... it still doesn't look that
>> great, though. But it *could* be done.
>
> Hmm. What would you use for an 'angry face'?

I think you don't quite understand. Hm... google for aalib.

>>>>>>>>> (And where do Norns get oxygen from normally, anyway? Or do their
>>>>>>>>> lungs
>>>>>>>>> generate it on their own?)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think there's some CA called air that gets turned into oxygen. But
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> could be wrong.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hmm. *wonders where air comes from*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Either it's a CA or produced by some receptor...
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmm.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good point--underwater, there's no air/oxygen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But there was something strange about that. I think you didn't get
>>>>>> much
>>>>>> 'water' underwater. At least I killed some supposedly amphibic Norn
>>>>>> because of something like that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmm. *nods* Notice how long Norns can walk around before they cease
>>>>> being
>>>>> concious? It's less to do with what they take in, more to do with what
>>>>> they
>>>>> don't... read somewhere that something builds up. Hrm.
>>>>>
>>>>> Argh.
>>>>
>>>> They don't get unconscious, they just die. Did you never drop an ettin
>>>> into a pond?
>>>
>>> Good point... it was in C2 that they fell unconcious. Which means that
>>> they walk around for even longer in C3 before showing any ill effects.
>>
>> Never had C2.
>
> Oh. Pity--it's good to know the history of these things.

Gameware still only accepts paypal, I think...

>>>>>>>>>>> Solution (or at least partial solution) to the problem of too
>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>> gas
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> terrarium: imagine a worst-case senario, with an Agent that
>>>>>>>>>>> expels
>>>>>>>>>>> gas
>>>>>>>>>>> while taking in none. Taking into account the CA system you
>>>>>>>>>>> referenced,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bummer.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hrm? How so?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, if you get more and more gas... there's a point when the ship
>>>>>>>> hull
>>>>>>>> *will* explode.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yep.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not much of a problem on a planet, though.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> True--gravity is only strong enough to hold so much close enough to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> planet's surface, so all the rest goes further up... and possibly
>>>>>>> drifts
>>>>>>> away. Hrm. *wonders if the solar wind would be involved in that
>>>>>>> process*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If there wasn't the magnetic field of the earth it'd blow the whole
>>>>>> athmosphere away, IIRC.
>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed. *nods* Thus one worry associated with the magnetic field
>>>>> currently
>>>>> flipping.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, that'd be no problem. It would just run the other way around.
>>>
>>> Oh, yes--but it's the part inbetween, when it's weakened and conflicting
>>> with itself enough that it doesn't provide much protection, that people
>>> are
>>> worried about.
>>
>> ::shrugs::
>> Short term effects are just that. I takes a while to blow the atmosphere
>> away, I think.
>
> True. But there're mutations and the like that also worry them.

Oh, come on. *Short* term. You get problems when exposed too long. And
I'm not even sure what the solar wind actually consists of. Maybe I
should look that up...

>>>> I'd be
>>>> more worried about the gulf stream changing its path...
>>>
>>> Ehh. *nods* Good point.
>>
>> Yeah, it would make Europe more or less inhabitable.
>
> Which wouldn't be good for either or us.

And quite a few other people.

>>>>> ...and also, one way to avoid the problem of pressure thus would be to
>>>>> put
>>>>> the next Creatures on a planet/[other similar-sized object]--which
>>>>> would
>>>>> actually probably be done anyway--and to leave out complications to do
>>>>> with
>>>>> the exact mixture of gasses. However, that doesn't help those who want
>>>>> to
>>>>> experiment and otherwise play God^H^H^HHand in the short-term.
>>>>
>>>> Well, there are pressure cabins
>>>
>>> Where!? Or are you referring to real-life pressure cabins, where it can
>>
>> Yup, real life.
>
> Ohh, right.
>
>>> take weeks to watch plants growing and dying, and you can't /get/ Norns
>>> to
>>> walk around and [pseudo-random] burble [/pseudo-random]?
>>
>> I guess you could make one if you worked out how to simulate the whole
>> pressure-effects thing properly.
>
> Eh. To microscopic detail? Not logistically... er... practical (is that
> the word?) in the short-term.

I think you meant 'empirical'. And actually I was thinking about
sub-microscopic detail, but that, of course, depends on the kind of
microscope you use.

>>>>>>> (Unfortunate. Perhaps changable, but... unfortunate none the less.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that's not changeable. As I said they implemented diffusion.
>>>>>> Gases work like that, you know. It's just the sun that starts the
>>>>>> whole
>>>>>> wind business, actually.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but... an inequality in the pressure of oxygen should affect the
>>>>> pressure of nitrogen and carbon dioxide... shouldn't it?
>>>>
>>>> No, not if they don't chemically react. Well, the numbers might change
>>>> but it wouldn't *do* anything to it. Not sure how the partitial pressure
>>>> was exactly defined ATM.
>>>
>>> The numbers changing... that's the idea. Of course, uninfluenced by
>>> things
>>> which /did/ breathe it or react with it, the total amount should remain
>>> the
>>> same; it's where it is, and where (exactly) it goes that matters.
>>>
>>> ...the local amount, rather than the total amount...
>>
>> Gas mixtures are a bit complicated, but as I said you don't have
>> different gases effecting each other with ideal gasses and modelling
>> real gasses can get a bit difficult.
>
> Please explain the critical difference between real gasses and ideal gasses,
> here or elsewhere.

Well, with ideal gasses the particles don't interfer with each other,
they don't change phase and probably something else I forgot. Falls
apart when you get too close to the critical point.

> And for the record, both here and below: it's 'affect' when it's a verb
> that isn't creating something.

Oh, yes. I should have known that. Thanks.

>>>>> How can you flush a chamber with xenon if all the air just lets the
>>>>> xenon
>>>>> pass through and ignores it!?
>>>>
>>>> Wind. By flushing it you use the kinetic energy of the xenon to
>>>> accelerate opther gases.
>>>
>>> That's the idea! Or the greater pressure of the xenon, leading to xenon
>>> crossing over, and little gas crossing back, only crossing the other way
>>> to
>>> where there's less pressure (as a result of the local pressure /there/
>>> being
>>> higher from the influx of xenon from the even higher pressure over
>>> there...
>>> *nods slightly*).
>>
>> No, you *blow* it in. It has nothing to do with the actual pressure. It
>> just like flushing the toilet - you don't throw in some stuff and wait
>> that anything dissapears. You accelerate it by flushing. That's
>> something quite different.
>>
>>>> Wouldn't work with ideal gases.
>>>
>>> Hmm. Explain, please?
>>
>> They don't effect each other. And there's no wind in ideal gasses. If
>> you want that you need other, different models.
>
> See the above request for an explanation of the difference between ideal and
> real gasses.

Done that.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...if one could kill off all the plants, tell the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seed-thingamajigs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> produce any more automatically,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, that's easy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With or without involving third-party Agents and/or CAOS?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Without CAOS... probably not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unfortunate. The common user would want an intuitive
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interface,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You can always make an interface for CAOS. That's the point. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>>>>> raw code because it's easier (and doesn't need any polish).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hmm. *nods slightly...*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Have I/we mentioned that the common user would also want eye
>>>>>>>>>>> candy
>>>>>>>>>>> (in
>>>>>>>>>>> reference to said interface) to match the rest of the eye candy?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Feel free to make eye candy then.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There's a problem. No idea how to make eye candy. Or rather, I
>>>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>>>> draw.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Same here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah, well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ...some day, with /effective/ physics (including light) and world
>>>>>>> simulation, rather than sprites...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...you'd need even more skills to do the graphics.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's the idea. You wouldn't specify the appearance... you would
>>>>> simply
>>>>> specify the basic colours, the materials, the way that some light was
>>>>> absorbed and other light was not... you would build a person, not as a
>>>>> hollow shell of a picture pasted around a model, but a
>>>>> three-dimensional
>>>>> statue, solid, with innards and a heart that beat and skin which was
>>>>> warm
>>>>> as
>>>>> skin can ever be...
>>>>
>>>> And the 3d mesh?
>>>
>>> Define '3d mesh', please, and clarify your question.
>>
>> Ever used a 3d modeller of sorts? It defines point in three dimensional
>> space - and connects those. (Wireframe, someone?) Sometimes called mesh,
>> as an analogon to fences.
>
> Ah. *nods slightly; thinks* ...use them, maybe, to describe the
> surfaces... but it's important that there's more to the materials than just
> appearances. Take wood, for example. Put in its stresses and strains...
> the way that it breaks... or maybe I'm looking to far forward the one
> moment, too little the next.

Then you'd have to implement the different molecules, I'd say.

> Far forward enough, then? Eliminate the 3d mesh in that format. Rather
> than defining and connecting points, leading to irregular angles...

....defining everything in such detail that you can get a perfect VR...

> To take another example, take a human heart. Look at how muscle works in a
> /real/ human heart, look at how it connects, how it's aligned... once
> you've got the basics, once you've hooked everything together, the surface
> should hold together normally without an external definition of how big it
> is.

Bottom-up is always the best way to do simulations. Problem is that this
requires *plenty* of data and even more calculation power.

> Hard to think about. How to put things in, how to hook things together...
> for every cell, a selection of properties, for groups of cells, a selection
> of properties, groups of different cells having different properties,
> putting groups of cells together, interlacing them with nerves, defining how
> the electricity can flow and how the cells will contract--either on the
> cellular level or, more likely, on a higher level, or maybe talking about
> general numbers of cells and general properties about how cells in certain
> numbers, certain configurations would act together--and the properties
> hard-wired properties interacting with each other to result in properties,
> in results that /weren't/ hardwired, yet realistic and planned for...
>
> *dreams*

::sneaks away::

>>>>>>>>>>> *makes a brief snerking sound at the mental image of Creatures as
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> MUD*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You see a maze of twisty passages, all alike.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There is a Grendel to the north.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <g>
>>>>>>>>>> throw stone north
>>>>>>>>>> run south
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You see a maze of twisty passages, all alike.
>>>>>>>>> There is an Ettin here.
>>>>>>>>> There is a brass lantern here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Ettin takes the brass lantern.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Ettin has gone east.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> east
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You see a maze of twisty passages, all alike.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is a detritus here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Where is that damn Ettin? Oh, well...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> eat detritus
>>>>>
>>>>> You feel sick!
>>>>>
>>>>> There is an Ettin to the north.
>>>>
>>>> eat lemon, north
>>>
>>> You can't see a lemon, north here.
>>
>> ::breaks interpreter::
>> Stupid thing!
>
> *smiles wryly*
>
> Write a new interpreter? Y/N

Y

>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's an important distinction between the sorts of things
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and not do without disillusioning oneself in one's escapist
>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Creating cheese out of thin air? Certainly. Reaching down
>>>>>>>>>>>>> into
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tangle
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> code and flipping a bit, hoping that later one will be able to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> remember
>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly where one reached down, which bit one flipped? Hoping
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>> remember /how/ exactly to undo what one has done, or having to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> write
>>>>>>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what one said, what one would have to say to unsay it, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hoping
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't lose one's notes? Not preferable.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Erm what?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There's always the worry that one might forget how to use CAOS,
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>> just wants to sit down to relax, having to flip through a manual
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> look
>>>>>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>>>>>> the exact programming terminology for what one wants to do might
>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>> preferable.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Oh, it has a help system. I never flip through a manual.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ......
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ........!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ............!?!!!?!!!!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ....very glad I wasn't eating something just then. HOW THE HELLS
>>>>>>>>> DO
>>>>>>>>> YOU
>>>>>>>>> ACCESS THE HELP SYSTEM!? *blinks; closes eyelids over eyes; pushes
>>>>>>>>> eyes
>>>>>>>>> back firmly and/or gently fully into their sockets*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are two commands for that (basicly giving you the same info
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> CAOS doc gives you - because the CAOS doc is compiled from these)
>>>>>>>> called
>>>>>>>> APRO and HELP. Help gives you a list of all commands or help to a
>>>>>>>> specific command (help "help"), APRO will search the descriptions
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> word you define and print a list of commands it found it in.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How exactly does one hyperventilate?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Erm, *what*?!
>>>>>>
>>>>><snip>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes?
>>>
>>> Yes what? *mental image: 'Yes sir./!'*
>>
>> Erm, what?
>
> ...just answer the question? *tired*

Yes 'whould you please explain what the hell you meant when you wrote
"How exactly does one hyperventilate?"'
--
emmel <the_emmel*you-know-what-that's-for*@gmx.net>
(Don't forget to remove the ** bit)

Official AGC feedback maniac

"God is playing creatures - and we're the norns."

"A hundred dead are a tragedy - a hundred thousand are statistics."

"I guess you can call yourself lucky." -
"I could, but Linda suits me a little better...
Things called lucky tend to get hit by trucks."

Hi, I'm a .sig virus. Just copy me to your .signature. And don't worry.