I know you guys would hate me for this....

On 41khz Samurai shrieked:
> Quoth Ashikaga:
> ...
>>We don't think the same way, obviously. If you were a domestic cat, what
>>do you think your purpose is? You literally have no meaning of life, so
>>isn't that like waiting for death? Get fed, get taken care of suddenly all
>>mean nothing to you, because you are a cat that doesn't have to take on
>>responsibility. I was out of work for two years and I felt like I was
>>waiting for death, so that's why I took on gardening before I landed on a
>>job that also felt like waiting for death....
>
> You're seriously anthropomorphising here, Ashi. Cats don't have deep
> naval-gazing sessions wondering where their life is going, because
> they're not people -- they're cats. Provided they get fed, petted and
> somewhere to run around, they're cool.

You don't know Ranmao. He is very different from the very beginning. I
always feel he's previous life is a human. He just shares a lot of human
emotion, and you can actually feel what he feels. His emotional response
toward certain event mimicks human one's very closely. He gets depressed,
he is not content, he wants attention, he can get jealous, he wants revenge
sometimes, he also get embarrassed or feeling guilty if he did something
wrong, he talks (though in meows, but it's a very easy language to learn so
I understand him fully by the tones). Yes, those are relatively simple
response most human kids can do, but kids my mom babysits aren't as
advanced as Ranmao when it comes to some stuff. Saying cats only want to
get fed and stuff, it's oversimplification.... Ranmao was in depression
for a long while when he admited he was a cat, Now he is now okay with it
and thinks it's okay to be petted, since such superior/subordinate
relationship thingy is merely superficial. I don't think my boss
understands that yet (and she is a decade older than me) and is willing let
go of her ego.

>>If you go look at Ranmao, you'd see he is actually quite sad (especially
>>nowadays since he is getting very old).
>
> I'm not at all convinced cats do "sad". If you mean he's not as
> ebullient as he used to be, that's obviously because he's slowed down as
> he's aged.

He was in depression. We've always pampered him and kept him away from the
world. I think it probably was Georgie (a cat we feed but not ours) who
introduced him the idea he was a cat. Ranmao used to chase all the cats
away, because he doesn't like any of them, but now he admited he is also
one of them. Cats have way too much self-esteem, if you asked me. And when
he was "broken", you have to see how much transformation he was going
through. They do have sadness, not just loss of energy (which he hasn't
been once he was no longer a kitten).

>>Sometimes he'd crave for attention, which was not the way he used to be.
>>Nowadays, he would run to ee me. It's very lonely to be a cat
>
> If there isn't someone at home most of the time, I always favour getting
> two cats (provided they get on well), so they can keep one another
> company.

That's a good thing, but I was overly protective. I didn't want to have
cat fight in the house, since Ranmao was a little jealousy. Though now
Georgie visits us very often, but Ranmao is usually a recluse and sleeps
all day long (until I go to the backyard then he would run to me wanting to
be hugged), and not so willing to communicate with other cats.

>>(and they puke furballs, and Ranmao has some asthma-like problem lately).
>
> Age. Happens to the best of us. Doesn't mean he's miserable the whole
> time, though.

Wait until you gets old and illness-ridden. I am pretty sure you'd feel
miserable too, and feels how lack of humanity it is.

--
Ashikaga a28
 >> Stay informed about: I know you guys would hate me for this.... 

On 22khz Samurai shrieked:
> Quoth thehawk:
> ...
>>If I never had to worry about money again, I would not face any of these
>>problems you speak of. There is so much -world- out there to see. So
>>many things to do. Things to learn, people to meet, and things like
>>that.
>
> Absolutely agree. If I came into a million pounds right now, I'd settle
> up my affairs, make sure my parents were okay financially, and then I'd
> be off round the world.

I'd rather managing my money and perhaps do some charity works. My parents
would yell at me though, since they think giving money away is moronic.
Humanity isn't in their brain-structure. They don't feel using money on
the needy is an increased utility of money. Not to mention if money could
buy happiness, then whatever the amount is spent, it's still considered
cheap.

>>I have a list of things I want to accomplish. Maybe you need one too.
>
> Something to strive for is generally a good thing.

Yes. The goal of life is an asymptote.

--
Ashikaga a28
 >> Stay informed about: I know you guys would hate me for this.... 

Quoth Ashikaga <citizenashi RemoveThis @yahoo.com>:

>On 22khz Samurai shrieked:
>> Quoth thehawk:
>> ...
>>>If I never had to worry about money again, I would not face any of these
>>>problems you speak of. There is so much -world- out there to see. So
>>>many things to do. Things to learn, people to meet, and things like
>>>that.
>>
>> Absolutely agree. If I came into a million pounds right now, I'd settle
>> up my affairs, make sure my parents were okay financially, and then I'd
>> be off round the world.
>
>I'd rather managing my money and perhaps do some charity works.

I'd do that when I got back. A good round-the-world trip can cost less
than £5,000 -- even if one were doing it in relative luxury, I reckon
£10,000 would be a reasonable figure.

I'd be gone for a year or two, then I'd get back, invest the vast
majority of that million pounds in something with a good risk/return
balance, possibly set up a small trust fund for charities and then write
that novel I've always been meaning to get around to

It's not like I haven't thought about this, you see. Although I'm not
sure why, since I have no rich relatives, don't gamble and don't fancy
setting up my own business, so there's no way I'll ever make a million.
<

>My parents would yell at me though, since they think giving money away
>is moronic. Humanity isn't in their brain-structure. They don't feel
>using money on the needy is an increased utility of money.

Some people think like that, certainly. But it's your right to disagree
-- and for goodness' sake, at your age, your parents shouldn't still be
yelling at you for the decisions you make, even if they don't agree.

>Not to mention if money could buy happiness, then whatever the amount
>is spent, it's still considered cheap.

Perhaps so!

>>>I have a list of things I want to accomplish. Maybe you need one too.
>>
>> Something to strive for is generally a good thing.
>
>Yes. The goal of life is an asymptote.

*looks it up*

Ah, mathematical term. I'm not sure I agree. There's nothing wrong
with achieving one's goals, but at that point, one should consider
setting some new ones -- even if that's only "enjoy the fruits of my
current success".
--
___________________________________________________________
\^\^//
,^ ( ..) Samurai Dragon -==UDIC Sig Code==-
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\ \ \ (2 Attentive Points) nI--nPT nS+++nT--wM-wC y+ a30
ksj ^--^ ___________________________________________________________
 >> Stay informed about: I know you guys would hate me for this.... 

Although I'm sure most people are already aware of what prompts this
post, I suggest those who aren't using newsreaders with filters keep an
eye on their Newsgroups: headers for a while.
--
___________________________________________________________
\^\^//
,^ ( ..) Samurai Dragon -==UDIC Sig Code==-
| \ \ -==(UDIC)==- d++e+N T--Om+U146MA7'! L8u uC++
\ `^--^ \\\\\\\\//////// uF-uG++uLB+uA+nC++uR nH+nP+++
\ \ \ (2 Attentive Points) nI--nPT nS+++nT--wM-wC y+ a30
ksj ^--^ ___________________________________________________________
 >> Stay informed about: I know you guys would hate me for this.... 

Quoth Ashikaga <citizenashi.RemoveThis@yahoo.com>:
....
>You don't know Ranmao. He is very different from the very beginning. I
>always feel he's previous life is a human. He just shares a lot of human
>emotion, and you can actually feel what he feels. His emotional response
>toward certain event mimicks human one's very closely.

Cats certainly have some basic responses that aren't entirely dissimilar
from humans' -- some of the ones you listed in the post, like desiring
atention and to a certain extent, embarrassment -- but I suspect you're
seeing of them than than there actually are.

>he wants attention, he can get jealous,

>Ranmao was in depression for a long while when he admited he was a cat,
>Now he is now okay with it and thinks it's okay to be petted, since
>such superior/subordinate relationship thingy is merely superficial.

I'm having trouble taking this paragraph seriously, I must admit. Cats
don't consider themselves subordinate, by and large, and I'm pretty sure
they don't have existential crises. >

>> I'm not at all convinced cats do "sad". If you mean he's not as
>> ebullient as he used to be, that's obviously because he's slowed down as
>> he's aged.
>
>He was in depression. We've always pampered him and kept him away from the
>world. I think it probably was Georgie (a cat we feed but not ours) who
>introduced him the idea he was a cat. Ranmao used to chase all the cats
>away, because he doesn't like any of them, but now he admited he is also
>one of them.

The only backup you have for that conclusion is your own assumption.
More likely, he used to chase other cats away because they were on his
territory, until he got too old to make it worthwhile.

>Cats have way too much self-esteem, if you asked me. And when
>he was "broken", you have to see how much transformation he was going
>through. They do have sadness, not just loss of energy (which he hasn't
>been once he was no longer a kitten).

I'm sorry to sound heartless, but it really is no great surprise that an
adult cat has less energy than a kitten. I think you'll find /every/
cat is like that.

....
>That's a good thing, but I was overly protective. I didn't want to have
>cat fight in the house, since Ranmao was a little jealousy. Though now
>Georgie visits us very often, but Ranmao is usually a recluse and sleeps
>all day long (until I go to the backyard then he would run to me wanting to
>be hugged), and not so willing to communicate with other cats.

You've already said he's getting old. Lethargy is simply a sign of
that.

>>>(and they puke furballs, and Ranmao has some asthma-like problem lately).
>>
>> Age. Happens to the best of us. Doesn't mean he's miserable the whole
>> time, though.
>
>Wait until you gets old and illness-ridden. I am pretty sure you'd feel
>miserable too, and feels how lack of humanity it is.

Then again, I know a lot of old people who are still pretty sprightly --
and have seen elderly cats that are still quite content with their lot.
As I said, I can't help feeling that you're projecting your own concerns
onto your cat's reactions. If he's in pain, fair enough, he's not going
to be terribly happy -- but in that case, of course, he should be taken
to the vet. Otherwise, he's just slowing down.

If he still has his meals, a bit of fuss from time to time and a nice
warm patch of sun to lie in, though, I'm betting he's more content than
you think he is.
--
___________________________________________________________
\^\^//
,^ ( ..) Samurai Dragon -==UDIC Sig Code==-
| \ \ -==(UDIC)==- d++e+N T--Om+U146MA7'! L8u uC++
\ `^--^ \\\\\\\\//////// uF-uG++uLB+uA+nC++uR nH+nP+++
\ \ \ (2 Attentive Points) nI--nPT nS+++nT--wM-wC y+ a30
ksj ^--^ ___________________________________________________________
 >> Stay informed about: I know you guys would hate me for this.... 

On Thu, 11 May 2006 23:26:19 -0700, thehawk
<thehawk5150at.DeleteThis@hotmaildot.com> wrote:

>Ashikaga wrote:
>> On 24khz thehawk shrieked:
>>> Ashikaga wrote:
>> <snip>
>>>> If I were a household pet, I want to be a cat! :-p CAT! CAT! CAT!
>>> TheCat(tm) says you have much to learn before you are ready to be a cat.
>>
>> I agree. I often feel cats have much tougher lives then we do. All they
>> do is waiting for death.
>>
>
>Waiting for death? Are you mental?

Yes.
--

Erimess Dragon
-==(UDIC)==-

d++e+NT++Om UK!1!2!3!A!L!
U+uCuFuG+++uLB+uA+ nC+nH+nP+nS++nT-xa4

Never compare yourself to the best others can do,
but rather to the best you can do.
 >> Stay informed about: I know you guys would hate me for this.... 

On Fri, 12 May 2006 11:08:02 -0400, Ophidian <zacwbond RemoveThis @vt.edu> wrote:

>
>1. Write a book

Wish I could. Don't have the talent. Writing (and I don't mean
usenet posts) is only one of two things I wish I could do and can't.
Most things I can't do, I don't want to. Which makes life simplier.
But this is one exception.

>2. Write a symphony (or some sort of large orchestral work)

Well, I've always wanted to take an orchestral work and arrange it for
concert band. If you manage to get your part done, maybe I'll work on
getting my part done.
--

Erimess Dragon
-==(UDIC)==-

d++e+NT++Om UK!1!2!3!A!L!
U+uCuFuG+++uLB+uA+ nC+nH+nP+nS++nT-xa4

Never compare yourself to the best others can do,
but rather to the best you can do.
 >> Stay informed about: I know you guys would hate me for this.... 

On Fri, 12 May 2006 14:16:42 +0100, Samurai <samurai DeleteThis @dev.nul> wrote:

>Quoth Ashikaga <citizenashi DeleteThis @yahoo.com>:
>...
>>We don't think the same way, obviously. If you were a domestic cat, what
>>do you think your purpose is? You literally have no meaning of life, so
>>isn't that like waiting for death? Get fed, get taken care of suddenly all
>>mean nothing to you, because you are a cat that doesn't have to take on
>>responsibility. I was out of work for two years and I felt like I was
>>waiting for death, so that's why I took on gardening before I landed on a
>>job that also felt like waiting for death....
>
>You're seriously anthropomorphising here, Ashi. Cats don't have deep
>naval-gazing sessions wondering where their life is going, because
>they're not people -- they're cats. Provided they get fed, petted and
>somewhere to run around, they're cool.

While true, that's oversimplified. Cats can develop very strong bonds
with people, and there's much more to it than getting petted. You're
right of course that they're not wondering where their life is going.
They are content with their bonds. I had an extremely strong bond
with my one cat for 15 years, and no one will ever be able to tell me
that cats don't love. They do, and it has meaning for them. In fact,
when that cat had cancer and his body was failing, sure, I didn't want
to let go... but more than that, I felt that he did not want to let go
of me.

>
>>If you go look at Ranmao, you'd see he is actually quite sad (especially
>>nowadays since he is getting very old).
>
>I'm not at all convinced cats do "sad". If you mean he's not as
>ebullient as he used to be, that's obviously because he's slowed down as
>he's aged.

I think they can be their own form of sad. Not maybe the way we would
feel it. But they do have their own form of emotions. I see them all
the time, and even many times know what they mean.
--

Erimess Dragon
-==(UDIC)==-

d++e+NT++Om UK!1!2!3!A!L!
U+uCuFuG+++uLB+uA+ nC+nH+nP+nS++nT-xa4

Never compare yourself to the best others can do,
but rather to the best you can do.
 >> Stay informed about: I know you guys would hate me for this.... 

On 11khz Samurai shrieked:
> Although I'm sure most people are already aware of what prompts this
> post, I suggest those who aren't using newsreaders with filters keep an
> eye on their Newsgroups: headers for a while.

I'll keep it concise. Don't want to give you guys too much trouble.

--
Ashikaga a28
 >> Stay informed about: I know you guys would hate me for this.... 

On 63khz Samurai shrieked:
> Quoth Ashikaga:
<snip>
>>I'd rather managing my money and perhaps do some charity works.
>
> I'd do that when I got back. A good round-the-world trip can cost less
> than £5,000 -- even if one were doing it in relative luxury, I reckon
> £10,000 would be a reasonable figure.
>
> I'd be gone for a year or two, then I'd get back, invest the vast
> majority of that million pounds in something with a good risk/return
> balance, possibly set up a small trust fund for charities and then write
> that novel I've always been meaning to get around to
>
> It's not like I haven't thought about this, you see. Although I'm not
> sure why, since I have no rich relatives, don't gamble and don't fancy
> setting up my own business, so there's no way I'll ever make a million.
> <

I don't think having a dream is a problem. The other way is more likely to
be a mental disorder or a general pessimism of the world.

>>My parents would yell at me though, since they think giving money away
>>is moronic. Humanity isn't in their brain-structure. They don't feel
>>using money on the needy is an increased utility of money.
>
> Some people think like that, certainly. But it's your right to disagree
> -- and for goodness' sake, at your age, your parents shouldn't still be
> yelling at you for the decisions you make, even if they don't agree.

I just had something like that about a week ago and the result is always me
giving in (then they'll gloat and rub in the wound). I live with my
parents, so no freedom whatsoever. Their decision is almost always
inferior but if you are Asian, then you don't have anything to say
whatsoever to your parents, even when they are wrong (and sometimes they
know it), you must do it, or you'll see your relatives scolding at you very
soon.... OTOH, if I always listen to my parents, then I would be a ruined
man. Usually they make decisions based on money rather than what it'll do
to my future.

<snip>
>>> Something to strive for is generally a good thing.
>>
>>Yes. The goal of life is an asymptote.
>
> *looks it up*
>
> Ah, mathematical term. I'm not sure I agree. There's nothing wrong
> with achieving one's goals, but at that point, one should consider
> setting some new ones -- even if that's only "enjoy the fruits of my
> current success".

That's an Ashi-ism, if you haven't heard me saying it before. What I mean
is, the goal is usually unapproachable, but one must strive toward that
direction. And since the curve toward the asymptote is always an
exponential projectile, the earlier part would always be approaching the
goal at a much faster rate, and then the curve would plateau near the end
stage. That being said, that's how I see achieving a goal. We would be
going nearer the goal but never really approaching it, and at the end
stage, the movement is so minute, it's hard to see any result but we know
it's the right direction.

--
Ashikaga a28
 >> Stay informed about: I know you guys would hate me for this.... 

Quoth erimess:
....
>Wish I could. Don't have the talent. Writing (and I don't mean
>usenet posts) is only one of two things I wish I could do and can't.
>Most things I can't do, I don't want to. Which makes life simplier.
>But this is one exception.

What you need is a suitable co-author. You can be the main ideas
person, and have co-author do the bulk of the actual writing.
--
___________________________________________________________
\^\^//
,^ ( ..) Samurai Dragon -==UDIC Sig Code==-
| \ \ -==(UDIC)==- d++e+N T--Om+U146MA7'! L8u uC++
\ `^--^ \\\\\\\\//////// uF-uG++uLB+uA+nC++uR nH+nP+++
\ \ \ (2 Attentive Points) nI--nPT nS+++nT--wM-wC y+ a30
ksj ^--^ ___________________________________________________________
 >> Stay informed about: I know you guys would hate me for this.... 

Quoth Ashikaga <citizenashi.DeleteThis@yahoo.com>:
>On 63khz Samurai shrieked:
....
>> -- and for goodness' sake, at your age, your parents shouldn't still be
>> yelling at you for the decisions you make, even if they don't agree.
>
>I just had something like that about a week ago and the result is always me
>giving in (then they'll gloat and rub in the wound). I live with my
>parents, so no freedom whatsoever.

If you're going back to college, perhaps you could look into getting a
room somewhere close to where you'll be studying. Living with one's
parents can be fine, but not, IMHO, like that.

>Their decision is almost always inferior but if you are Asian, then you
>don't have anything to say whatsoever to your parents, even when they are
>wrong (and sometimes they know it), you must do it, or you'll see your
>relatives scolding at you very soon....

Personally, I'd be willing to put up with that, but I accept that's
going to be a cultural difference to some extent.

>OTOH, if I always listen to my parents, then I would be a ruined man.
>Usually they make decisions based on money rather than what it'll do
>to my future.

....
>That's an Ashi-ism, if you haven't heard me saying it before.

I don't recall it, but then I have a bad memory.

>What I mean
>is, the goal is usually unapproachable, but one must strive toward that
>direction. And since the curve toward the asymptote is always an
>exponential projectile, the earlier part would always be approaching the
>goal at a much faster rate, and then the curve would plateau near the end
>stage. That being said, that's how I see achieving a goal. We would be
>going nearer the goal but never really approaching it, and at the end
>stage, the movement is so minute, it's hard to see any result but we know
>it's the right direction.

Oh, I saw exactly what you were saying, once I'd looked up the term. But
I think, as I said, that it's quite possible to achieve reasonable
goals. Your idea could well apply to the sum total of goals one sets
oneself over the course of one's life, though, I suppose.
--
___________________________________________________________
\^\^//
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ksj ^--^ ___________________________________________________________
 >> Stay informed about: I know you guys would hate me for this.... 

Quoth erimess:
>On Fri, 12 May 2006 14:16:42 +0100, Samurai <samurai.TakeThisOut@dev.nul> wrote:
....
>>You're seriously anthropomorphising here, Ashi. Cats don't have deep
>>naval-gazing sessions wondering where their life is going, because
>>they're not people -- they're cats. Provided they get fed, petted and
>>somewhere to run around, they're cool.
>
>While true, that's oversimplified.

Admittedly, but I didn't want to sit for five minutes writing out what I
considered might be all the possible variations of feline thought. The
purpose of the generalisation was to express disagreement with Ashi's
view through contrast.

>Cats can develop very strong bonds with people, and there's much more
>to it than getting petted.

That's undoubtedly true, or it wouldn't matter to cats by whom they were
petted -- for some, that clearly is an issue.

>You're right of course that they're not wondering where their life is
>going. They are content with their bonds. I had an extremely strong
>bond with my one cat for 15 years, and no one will ever be able to tell
>me that cats don't love.

Like many things concerning abstracts, that depends to a large extent on
one's definition. As love is a notoriously hard thing to pin down, I
won't disagree.

>They do, and it has meaning for them. In fact, when that cat had cancer
>and his body was failing, sure, I didn't want to let go... but more than
>that, I felt that he did not want to let go of me.
....
>I think they can be their own form of sad. Not maybe the way we would
>feel it. But they do have their own form of emotions.

I did say that myself, if you recall.

>I see them all the time, and even many times know what they mean.

It's been a while since I've had cats (and I do miss having them around)
so I concede I'm also a little distanced from their to-ings and
fro-ings. But I'm happy to agree they're not just automata --
otherwise, what would be the point of having them as pets?
--
___________________________________________________________
\^\^//
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ksj ^--^ ___________________________________________________________
 >> Stay informed about: I know you guys would hate me for this....