Reality Shows and Superheros

"David Johnston" <rgormannospam DeleteThis @telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:40c9472f.38930004@news.telusplanet.net...
> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 18:50:26 -1000, "Warren Okuma" <wokuma DeleteThis @lava.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"David Johnston" <rgormannospam DeleteThis @telusplanet.net> wrote in message
> >news:40c92a5e.31551313@news.telusplanet.net...
> >> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:00:54 -1000, "Warren Okuma" <wokuma DeleteThis @lava.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> In fact, a confession blurted out before the cops have had a chance
> >> >> to even ask a question much less place an alleged criminal under
> >> >> arrest is admissable.
> >> >
> >> >Or cynical real world supers (who actually follow real criminal law)
> >stumble
> >> >into a four color world...
> >>
> >> Does that indicate you think I'm wrong? I'm not. Cops in the United
> >> States must mirandize suspects before beginning to question them and
> >> must stop questioning if the suspect asks for a lawyer until the
> >> lawyer gets there. But information volunteered without any
> >> questioning is fair game.
> >>
> >I agree. But I don't remember Superman or Spiderman giving out a
Miranda...
>
> Since they don't generally question suspects, and any statements that
> suspects make to them are generally never admitted into a court of
> law, they have no reason to. Generally Superman's opponents are
> so amazingly unsubtle that there are literally thousands of
> eyewitnesses to their malefactions. Spiderman probably has had a
> considerable number of perps end up walking because the evidence
> against them is inadequate...but then plenty of cops can say the same.
>
> Spiderman's more about frustrating the criminal than trying to put him
> in jail anyway.
>
Can you name a super that reads Miranda rights and follows proper police
procedures?
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On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 20:42:46 -1000, "Warren Okuma" <wokuma RemoveThis @lava.net>
wrote:

>> Spiderman's more about frustrating the criminal than trying to put him
>> in jail anyway.
>>
>Can you name a super that reads Miranda rights and follows proper police
>procedures?

First we'd have to find a super who is actually a cop. Sadly I never
saw Wolverston Warriour make an arrest.
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Warren Okuma wrote:
>>>>> With or without magic/psi, secret ID's are a part of the genre that
>>>>> only work due to willing suspension of disbelief. When I GM supers,
>>>>> I tell my players straight up that if they want to maintain a secret ID
>>>>> they can, but they should be ready to have it broken by anyone who
>>>>> makes a serious effort to do so.
>>>>
>>>> I would think that would depend on too many different factors to make a
>>>> general statement like that.
>>>
>>> No, not really.
>>
>> Yes, really. I wouldn't even consider it terribly realistic. If a person
>> really doesn't want to be discovered, then they'll be taking steps to
>> make sure they aren't discovered, and finding them won't be easy.
>> As we speak, there are thousands and thousands of people roaming
>> the country under assumed names, and it generally takes the government
>> years to find even the places they've been. If these people had superhuman
>> powers to change their appearance and/or travel at amazing speeds, they
>> would, quite literally, never be caught.
>>
>>> Look at how many people in real life manage to maintain a second life as
>>> a long-term proposition successfully. The number of successful (e.g.)
>>> spies and cheating husbands is dwarfed by the number of failures, and they
>>> don't have half the problems a superhero would have.
>>
>> You realize that, as it is, we only catch about 35-40% of all criminals,
>> right?
>
> Isn't Superman's disguise... glasses?

Yes. Not my point. Superman should have been pegged as Clark from day one. My
point was concerning the supers who have powers that would make identification
difficult.
--
-=[ The BlakGard ]=-
"Somewhere there's danger;
somewhere there's injustice,
and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"
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Dannis Francis Hefferman wrote:
>> As we speak, there are thousands and thousands of people roaming the
>> country under assumed names, and it generally takes the government
>> years to find even the places they've been.
>
> How many of those people are trying to live two completely separate lives at
> once?

If I knew that, they wouldn't be running around undetected. People have been
known to do this for decades, though. The reason they aren't caught is mostly
because no one expects it.

>> If these people had superhuman powers to change their appearance and/or
>> travel at amazing speeds, they would, quite literally, never be caught.
>
> If all they wanted to do was go on the lam, sure, they'd have a big
> advantage. If they were trying to be both Captain Amazing and Wally the
> mild-mannered office gopher at the same time, that's a whole 'nother kettle
> of fish.

Not really.

> And again: as soon as one decent telepath takes an interest, it's Game Over.

The telepath would have to catch them first.
--
-=[ The BlakGard ]=-
"Somewhere there's danger;
somewhere there's injustice,
and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"
 >> Stay informed about: Reality Shows and Superheros 

Warren Okuma wrote:
>>>> In fact, a confession blurted out before the cops have had a chance
>>>> to even ask a question much less place an alleged criminal under
>>>> arrest is admissable.
>>>
>>> Or cynical real world supers (who actually follow real criminal law)
>>> stumble into a four color world...
>>
>> Does that indicate you think I'm wrong? I'm not. Cops in the United
>> States must mirandize suspects before beginning to question them and
>> must stop questioning if the suspect asks for a lawyer until the
>> lawyer gets there. But information volunteered without any
>> questioning is fair game.
>
> I agree. But I don't remember Superman or Spiderman giving out a Miranda...

They wouldn't need to.
--
-=[ The BlakGard ]=-
"Somewhere there's danger;
somewhere there's injustice,
and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"
 >> Stay informed about: Reality Shows and Superheros 

On 11 Jun 2004 08:23:08 GMT, blakgard.TakeThisOut@aol.coma.org (The Black
Guardian) wrote:

>> And again: as soon as one decent telepath takes an interest, it's Game Over.
>
>The telepath would have to catch them first.

And more importantly he'd have to have means and motive to publicise
the secret I.D.
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blakgard.RemoveThis@aol.coma.org (The Black Guardian) wrote in message news:<20040611041917.06380.00000823.RemoveThis@mb-m12.aol.com>...
> Warren Okuma wrote:
> > Isn't Superman's disguise... glasses?
>
> Yes. Not my point. Superman should have been pegged as Clark from day one.

Well, Supes does put a lot of (super-) effort into maintaining
his secret ID. He regularly stages appearances in public by
himself and his alter-ego at the same time, and there have
been bits (depending on which Superman incarnation is in question)
where Superman is said to use super-acting and even low-level
super-hypnosis to keep people from looking at Clark Kent and
saying, as Ambush Bug once did, "I can't believe you actually
fool people with that stupid disguise."

It helps that most of his foes who could easily crack
his secret ID aren't the type to blow it in public.
They either don't care about that kind of thing, or
aren't part of Earth civilization. His training as
a newspaper and television journalist gives him skills
at manipulating what the public sees when the media
gets interested in the "Who is Superman?" type stories.

I think Clark Kent exists more for therapeutic reasons
than to safeguard Superman's friends and loved ones.
It ain't easy being Super-savior 24/7.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet
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rgormannospam DeleteThis @telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote in message news:<40c8f446.17701480 DeleteThis @news.telusplanet.net>...
> On 10 Jun 2004 14:14:52 -0700, rbrown DeleteThis @myriad.com (Richard Brown)
> wrote:
>
> >>
> >
> >No the super hero just has to wory about the fact that the crooks he
> >nabbed will be back on the street before dawn because the police
> >couldn't hold them due to the fact that the hero didn't folow the same
> >procedures the police are suposed to. A bunch of trussed up guys in
> >ski masks and a pile of guns doesn't prove they were caught in the
> >commision of a crime unless it was also caught on film or videotape
> >(in a world with ilisionists eye wittness testimony will be even less
> >reliable). If the crook starts babling a convesion as soon as the
> >cops arive that's even worse because it will be thrown out cause they
> >didn't have a chance to give the Miranda warning.
>
> In fact, a confession blurted out before the cops have had a chance
> to even ask a question much less place an alleged criminal under
> arrest is admissable.

That depends a great deal about what the crooks lawyer can convince a
judge of. If the lawyer can convince the judge that the super
psycologicaly traumatized the crook and the confesion was in effect
under duress then it's not admisable.
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Wayne Shaw <shaw DeleteThis @caprica.com> wrote in message news:<a05004a5c62b8218c49e442c939e2be5 DeleteThis @news.nntpserver.com>...
> On 10 Jun 2004 13:08:10 -0700, rbrown DeleteThis @myriad.com (Richard Brown)
> wrote:
>
> >Wayne Shaw <shaw DeleteThis @caprica.com> wrote in message news:<18c22373c0d5e3549eda0d86508e0eb4 DeleteThis @news.nntpserver.com>...
> >> On 9 Jun 2004 13:21:07 -0700, rbrown DeleteThis @myriad.com (Richard Brown) wrote:
> >>
> >> >Actualy moral superiority doesn't matter, since it's a matter of
> >> >opinion. Any Superhero is a costumed vilaglantee untill/unless he is
> >> >A)deptutised by local law enforcement (oficialy or unoficialy) or
> >> >B)becomes a member of a superhero team that has an official
> >> >endorcement from the local/national government or UN. Batman gets
> >> >away with it because he's buddy buddy with Comisioner Gordon
> >> >(unoficialy deputised) and is a member of the Justice Leauge (a
> >> >government aproved group). Captain America get's away with it by
> >> >being a government agent and member of a aproved group. The X-men
> >> >aren't a government aproved group and despite having the moral high
> >> >ground are frequently considered public enemy #1.
> >>
> >> This sounds good on paper, but in practice there are numerous heroes
> >> both at DC and Marvel who are not officially sanctioned but are never
> >> treated as vigilantes. This analysis in fact ignores the fact that in
> >> a world where superheroes have existed for decades, legal doctorine
> >> will likely have come to some sort of accomodation with that fact.
> >
> >You will note when I said deputised by law enforcement I stated it
> >could be official or unoficial. The fact that they aren't treated as
> >vigilantes is, to me at least, an indication that there is a unoficial
> >sanction of there activities whether it is specificaly stated or not.
>
> I think this is too common in both the universes involved to be
> unofficial; I expect that the law has been adjusted to deal with the
> reality of the presence of superbeing.
>

But the comic book universes do seem to make a distinction between
having official status, such as the mayor deputizing Superman or the
Avengers UN charter, and unoficial status like the New Wariors (early
on at least IIRC many of there members went on to become Avengers).
Those with official status get a lot more cooperation from the
athorities, for example when an Avenger needs information from SHIELD
no questions are asked (except to confirm ID) if one of the New
Wariors was to make the same requests there would be a whole lot more
questions and suspicion unless a good reason was given. Unoficial
heroes who are well known and respected can count on some cooperation
from law enforcement based on personal reputation or personaly knowing
someone in the department, official ones seem to get cooperation
automaticaly at all levels.

> >Indeed the legal doctrine to accomideate super heroes that you assume
> >would arise is a de facto unoficial government sanction of them. This
> >would result in new heroes recieveing a presumptive unoficial sanction
> >untill they had either obtained official sanction (by good deeds,
> >shmoozing the right politicians or simply pulling the wool over
> >everyones eyes) or engaged in actions that caused the unoficial
> >sanction to be withdrawn.
>
> At which point talking about government sanction is effectively
> meaningless; you just have superheroes and people who are, in
> practice, supervillains.

On the contrary, in such a case the distinction between unoficial and
official sanction is still quite important. Those with official
sanction work very closely with the conventional athourities files are
shared information on investigations is often held in common. Those
without do not have the luxury of easy acess to all the official
files, but also have more of a free hand in pursuing there own
agendas. A official super hero who's activities lead him to
investigate coruption within the government that sactions him has much
the same problems as a internal investigation within that government,
OTOH an unoficial hero has a much freer hand. Unoficialy sanctioned
heroes also give a government plausable deniability for a number of
actions. Example the authorities know a drug shipment is in a certain
location, but because the evidence was obtained illegaly they can't
act but if an unoficialy aproved hero hapens to "overhear" some
officers talking about the problem and then does something about it
the shipment doesn't get on the streets and the cops haven't
technicaly used the illegaly obtained information, OTOH if an
officialy sanctioned hero did something about the shipment he'd likely
get in trouble.
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On 10 Jun 2004 17:56:40 -0700, rbrown RemoveThis @myriad.com (Richard Brown)
wrote:

>they make of it. Done well and you could have PC's who are dedicated
>to altering history to prevent the world we know. Done poorly of
>course the players will figure it out, of course that may result in
>some players who are a bit more paranoid in the real world.

Or, like me, you could have a lot of gaming friends who _already_ view
the modern world in much those terms...
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On 11 Jun 2004 03:41:55 GMT, blakgard.TakeThisOut@aol.coma.org (The Black
Guardian) wrote:

>> Look at how many people in real life manage to maintain a second life as a
>> long-term proposition successfully. The number of successful (e.g.) spies
>> and cheating husbands is dwarfed by the number of failures, and they don't
>> have half the problems a superhero would have.
>
>You realize that, as it is, we only catch about 35-40% of all criminals, right?

That's largely an issue of the resources we spend trying to catch
them. And unlike such folks, who usually succeed by moving often and
keeping a low profile, superheroes normally are relatively static and
do a lot of things to allow patterns to be devised.
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On 11 Jun 2004 08:23:08 GMT, blakgard RemoveThis @aol.coma.org (The Black
Guardian) wrote:

>> And again: as soon as one decent telepath takes an interest, it's Game Over.
>
>The telepath would have to catch them first.

No, they just have to encounter them in their super identity.
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On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 20:42:46 -1000, "Warren Okuma" <wokuma.DeleteThis@lava.net>
wrote:

>
>"David Johnston" <rgormannospam.DeleteThis@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
>news:40c9472f.38930004@news.telusplanet.net...
>> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 18:50:26 -1000, "Warren Okuma" <wokuma.DeleteThis@lava.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"David Johnston" <rgormannospam.DeleteThis@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
>> >news:40c92a5e.31551313@news.telusplanet.net...
>> >> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:00:54 -1000, "Warren Okuma" <wokuma.DeleteThis@lava.net>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In fact, a confession blurted out before the cops have had a chance
>> >> >> to even ask a question much less place an alleged criminal under
>> >> >> arrest is admissable.
>> >> >
>> >> >Or cynical real world supers (who actually follow real criminal law)
>> >stumble
>> >> >into a four color world...
>> >>
>> >> Does that indicate you think I'm wrong? I'm not. Cops in the United
>> >> States must mirandize suspects before beginning to question them and
>> >> must stop questioning if the suspect asks for a lawyer until the
>> >> lawyer gets there. But information volunteered without any
>> >> questioning is fair game.
>> >>
>> >I agree. But I don't remember Superman or Spiderman giving out a
>Miranda...
>>
>> Since they don't generally question suspects, and any statements that
>> suspects make to them are generally never admitted into a court of
>> law, they have no reason to. Generally Superman's opponents are
>> so amazingly unsubtle that there are literally thousands of
>> eyewitnesses to their malefactions. Spiderman probably has had a
>> considerable number of perps end up walking because the evidence
>> against them is inadequate...but then plenty of cops can say the same.
>>
>> Spiderman's more about frustrating the criminal than trying to put him
>> in jail anyway.
>>
>Can you name a super that reads Miranda rights and follows proper police
>procedures?
>

Nope, but then again, as he notes, most supercriminals have tons of
evidence against them; it's a question of catching them.
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