Reality Shows and Superheros

Richard Brown wrote:
>
> I'm not saying avoiding cameras is impossible, just very nearly so.

The Orwellian proliferation of surveillance cameras and "security
checkpoints" has had a profound impact on many genres, superheroes among
them.

We are becoming the dystopia that Silver Age superheroes time-traveled
to prevent.

bblackmoor
2004-06-10
 >> Stay informed about: Reality Shows and Superheros 

Dennis Francis Heffernan <hefferman.RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<2pmdnTn227d1ZFrdRVn-hw.RemoveThis@comcast.com>...
> Richard Brown wrote:
>
> > Untill recently that was pretty much what anyone whe ran for office
> > did. True they didn't go out engaging in individual vigalanteism, but
> > they did "clean up their comunities," or very literaly "fight for
> > right" in a war or often both.
>
> Riiiight, that's what those Tammany Hall crusaders were all about.
>

Now you're going farther back than I was. Tammany Hall and similar
are the reason why politicians in the middle of the 20th century had
to project an immage of being moraly superior. People were tired of
the coruption. Now the standards are slipping again for everyone,
which whould include super heroes if they were real.

> > Also cops do that every day and no one
> > thinks they have any moral superiority (yes I know cops have to go
> > through the academy and get hired to do the job, but it's the
> > indivudual officer who decides to persue that career on his own
> > initiative). To me the only diference between a cop and a superhero
> > is the superhero's figures their powers mean "we don' need no steenkin
> > bodges."
>
> Police are part of the system. They work as part of an organization. They
> answer to superiors and to a civilian government. They are held to strict
> rules regarding their activities, the type of investigations they can perform
> and how and when they can use force. They are monitored for abuses of their
> power.
>
> None of these things are true of your average superhero.
>

No the super hero just has to wory about the fact that the crooks he
nabbed will be back on the street before dawn because the police
couldn't hold them due to the fact that the hero didn't folow the same
procedures the police are suposed to. A bunch of trussed up guys in
ski masks and a pile of guns doesn't prove they were caught in the
commision of a crime unless it was also caught on film or videotape
(in a world with ilisionists eye wittness testimony will be even less
reliable). If the crook starts babling a convesion as soon as the
cops arive that's even worse because it will be thrown out cause they
didn't have a chance to give the Miranda warning.

> > They may think they are better than other people, that doesn't mean
> > they will be perceived that way by the general public any more than
> > cops are. Remember thay the view of these characters you get from the
> > comics is a insiders view of their world, the average man on the
> > street doesn't know Batman has a strong ethical code and probably just
> > devoutly hopes that Gordon isn't a fool for trusting him.
>
> Again, you are making my point for me. Superheroes that haven't been
> idolized aren't superheroes -- they're costumed vigilantes.
>

Funny I though your point was "Even shady types like Batman project a
holier-than-thou image, even if their methods aren't entirely
according to Hoyle. In fact, I'd argue the only real difference
between a character like Batman (who is generally regarded as a good
guy, if a controversial one) and a character like the Punisher (who is
generally regarded as a bad guy, and often has to fight superheroes),
is that the former claims to be better than the thugs he fights and
the latter does not. (That decision is why Batman does not kill and
the Punisher does.)" The "holier-than-thou" immage you are so
definite that a superhero needs to project to stay a hero is often
known only to his close asociates. Is he a super hero then only to
those who know him well and a vigilantee to everyone else, or is it
only important that the audience know he's beter than those he fights
and that he's a hero to them? Either way a hero whose motives are
known only to insiders isn't going to have them taken into acount in
his own world. Also a holier-than-thou immage that is known isn't
going to make a hero idolized, as your earlyer comments about Bush
indicated such an image is more likely to breed distrust.
So which is your point that superheroes must be Idolised to be heroes
or that they must project a holier-than-thou immage? I've been
disagreeing on the second, the first is a whole diferent discussion,
and no they are not equivalent. Maddona is idolized and she's
anything but holier-than-thou, OTOH the Pope is generaly seen as
holier-than-thou but I don't exactly see people Idolizing him, respect
yes but that's not the same thing.

> > Actualy moral superiority doesn't matter, since it's a matter of
> > opinion. Any Superhero is a costumed vilaglantee untill/unless he is
> > A)deptutised by local law enforcement (oficialy or unoficialy) or
> > B)becomes a member of a superhero team that has an official
> > endorcement from the local/national government or UN. Batman gets
> > away with it because he's buddy buddy with Comisioner Gordon
> > (unoficialy deputised) and is a member of the Justice Leauge (a
> > government aproved group). Captain America get's away with it by
> > being a government agent and member of a aproved group. The X-men
> > aren't a government aproved group and despite having the moral high
> > ground are frequently considered public enemy #1.
>
> Wayne Shaw has already adequately shot this to pieces.
>
And evidently neither one of you read too closely or gave it much
thought. Read my repy to Wayne.

> > Depends on how common those abilities are, and how reliable they are
> > percieved as being.
>
> If they exist, the criminals ("villains") will eventually get their hands on
> them, and it's all downhill from there.
>

Again it depends on how reliable such abilities are percieved as
being. If there are 50 phonies for every real psycic around the
vilans probably won't bother trying to get there hands on one.


>
> > Really? Do Spiderman and Daredevil operate from any less of a moral
> > high groud because they have bad press coverage?
>
> You're conflating necessary conditions with sufficient conditions.
>

and you aren't keeping your arguments strait. Which is it? Are they
costumed vigilantees because they aren't idolized by the public or
they are heroes because they stand on the moral high ground?

> > An asumption that has IMO no basis in how public opinion and PR realy
> > work.
>
> I'm sorry you can't see the forest for the trees. The scenarios you describe
> are plausible. The problem is they are not *logically necessary*, and you are
> arguing that they are. Geoff Depew's scenario was equally plausible. GMs are
> not required to possess a knockdown defense of the state of affairs they
> choose to portray.

My scenarios are not only plausable but probable based on any
realistic extrapolation of human nature from the real world. Also I
never asked for a knockdown defense I merly wanted a reason to suspend
disbelief, which GM's need to do. All the excuses offered so far have
made that harder instead of easyer.
 >> Stay informed about: Reality Shows and Superheros 

Brandon Blackmoor wrote:

> If you want to run your game this way, you should just disallow the
> disad up front and not waste the players' time.

Here's what I wrote in my "player's guide" for the campaign's last
incarnation. Some of this was cribbed but I've lost track of the attributions.

>> Perhaps the oldest cliche in comic books is the idea that supers would hide
>> themselves behind masks and mystery, adopting "secret identities". The usual
>> reason for this is that the super feels that criminals would strike at his
>> loved ones if they knew who the super was. (Police officers, crusading DA's
>> and judges just have to take their chances, it seems.)
>>
>> Unfortunately, secret identities don't work when the idea is approached
>> realistically. John Byrne, writing himself as a character in Star Brand,
>> pointed out to the title character that the whole idea behind a "secret
>> identity" depends on the reader's suspension of disbelief, then went into all
>> the different clues he could garner from Star Brand's costume alone. In an
>> issue of Spectacular Spider-Man, three college students almost break
>> Spider-Man's secret ID without even meaning to, by observing his movements
>> through the city. Byrne strikes again in issue #2 of the new Superman,
>> wherein a casual investigation by Lex Luthor's goons provides a computer with
>> enough data to conclude that Superman is Clark Kent. (Luthor, of course,
>> rejects the idea that any man with Superman's powers would ever hide them in
>> such a way, and fires the head of the project.) Superman's identity is
>> actually meaningless when considering the usual reason -- everyone knows that
>> Superman is friends with all of Kent's friends, so there's really no point.
>>
>> If, despite this, you wish for your character to maintain a secret identity,
>> you'll need a few things. You'll need a costume that alters the general
>> shape of your body -- any suit of body armor will do this job well enough,
>> but a metacloth costume won't; it will need extra padding. You'll need a mask
>> that covers your eyes completely -- again, the helmet from any suit of body
>> armor will do, but a metamorphic costume won't. You'll need to add shaded or
>> mirrored glasses or goggles, which might be a problem depending on how your
>> powers work. You'll need a voice modulator -- easy enough to buy or build.
>> And finally, you'll have to consider your movements in your super identity
>> very carefully. You can't allow your super identity to become connected with
>> your loved ones, or indeed with anyone, or you will have undermined your
>> purpose. You can't use your home as a base of operations -- in fact, you
>> can't use any place near your home for such a base. And after all that work,
>> your secret will still fall to the first interested party with access to a
>> reasonably-powerful Esper or Mage.
>>
>> Supers with Morph abilities or Suits will have less trouble with the physical
>> aspects of maintaining a secret identity, but they'll still have to watch
>> what they do and say.
>>
>> Legally, there is no law against using a "codename" -- of course, performers
>> have used stage names for years. S.A.B.R.E. will not reveal the identites of
>> any licensed or enlisted super without a court order. The same goes for
>> private security firms. However, it is not legal for a super to appear
>> before a petit jury in his "super" identity. If you're going to testify, the
>> mask has to come off. If you face criminal charges, you may be able to avoid
>> unmasking until after a grand jury has handed down an indictment, but after
>> that S.A.B.R.E. will be forced to turn over its file on you.
>>
>> In game terms, a secret identity is covered by the Secret disadvantage. It
>> is worth -10 points, or -20 if the super has Status 3 or better in his
>> mundane identity, as the media will watch his every move anyway.

I think I played it pretty straight, and I didn't get any complaints from the
players on the issue. They all chose to operate with masks and codenames, but
eschewed an actual "secret identity" and none of them took the disad. Which
is what I wanted. I did not forbid the disad entirely because it would have
been possible for a character to at least try to maintain a secret ID, and it
would not have been unduly disruptive to the campaign. I simply made it clear
that it would likely be more trouble than it was worth.

> While you are at it, you
> should disallow all of the other "unrealistic" disads, like Reputation,
> Hunted, and so on. After all, if your character is Hunted, and there are
> people with serious investigative capability (government,
> supervillains), there's really no chance you're going to survive.

If you have enemies who want you dead that badly, have nothing else on their
plate and are willing to devote their resources to the effort, then yes, you
are probably toast. While I didn't have an explicit guide section on it
(because it never came up), I would not have allowed someone to take a Hunted
at that level. It's disruptive to the campaign -- basically, the campaign
would have to revolve around the PC evading his hunters, requiring a
"travelling angel" format. To me, a Hunted means there is someone with a
grudge against the PC who will take shots at him when the opportunity presents
itself.

I don't see Reputation as being problematic at all.

> The
> same thing goes for Dependent NPCs, Psych Lims, Vulnerabilities,
> Susceptibilities, and any number of other disads typical in the genre.

Again, you are going to have to elaborate, because I don't see the problems
here. Particularly with Dependents -- frankly, if a player approached me with
a character concept that did not include a sufficient number of Dependents,
Contacts and other such "supporting cast members", I'd add them myself.

> Consequently, you will need to make allowance for the fact you have
> effectively eliminated most of the available disads. The least
> aggravating option (for players in such a game) may be to just give the
> players a lump sum of points with which to create characters, and ignore
> disads completely.

Only a perfect person has no disadvantages, in RPG terms, and that human
being does not exist, even in comics.

Sorry, but I just do not see where this attitude is coming from.

--
Dennis F. Heffernan CoH: Venture (Virtue) hefferman.TakeThisOut@comcast.net
#include <disclaim.h> MS Messenger: Venture

"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days
when Victoria reigned!" -- T.S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
 >> Stay informed about: Reality Shows and Superheros 

Brandon Blackmoor <bblackmoor.RemoveThis@blackgate.net> wrote in message news:<2irlhcFqujf5U1.RemoveThis@uni-berlin.de>...
> Richard Brown wrote:
> >
> > I'm not saying avoiding cameras is impossible, just very nearly so.
>
> The Orwellian proliferation of surveillance cameras and "security
> checkpoints" has had a profound impact on many genres, superheroes among
> them.
>
> We are becoming the dystopia that Silver Age superheroes time-traveled
> to prevent.
>
> bblackmoor
> 2004-06-10

That makes for an interesting campaign idea. Take a bunch of super
heroes from the Silver Age and send them to the present, but let them
think it's an alternate present, and make sure that the GM
descriptions are all couched in terms so that what we see as normal is
put in the most paranoid posible terms to the players and see what
they make of it. Done well and you could have PC's who are dedicated
to altering history to prevent the world we know. Done poorly of
course the players will figure it out, of course that may result in
some players who are a bit more paranoid in the real world.

The strangest possible world of all may be our own viewed through
fresh eyes.
 >> Stay informed about: Reality Shows and Superheros 

Dennis Francis Heffernan wrote:
>
> It's disruptive to the campaign...

I couldn't agree more.

bblackmoor
2004-06-10
 >> Stay informed about: Reality Shows and Superheros 

On 10 Jun 2004 13:08:10 -0700, rbrown.TakeThisOut@myriad.com (Richard Brown)
wrote:

>Wayne Shaw <shaw.TakeThisOut@caprica.com> wrote in message news:<18c22373c0d5e3549eda0d86508e0eb4.TakeThisOut@news.nntpserver.com>...
>> On 9 Jun 2004 13:21:07 -0700, rbrown.TakeThisOut@myriad.com (Richard Brown) wrote:
>>
>> >Actualy moral superiority doesn't matter, since it's a matter of
>> >opinion. Any Superhero is a costumed vilaglantee untill/unless he is
>> >A)deptutised by local law enforcement (oficialy or unoficialy) or
>> >B)becomes a member of a superhero team that has an official
>> >endorcement from the local/national government or UN. Batman gets
>> >away with it because he's buddy buddy with Comisioner Gordon
>> >(unoficialy deputised) and is a member of the Justice Leauge (a
>> >government aproved group). Captain America get's away with it by
>> >being a government agent and member of a aproved group. The X-men
>> >aren't a government aproved group and despite having the moral high
>> >ground are frequently considered public enemy #1.
>>
>> This sounds good on paper, but in practice there are numerous heroes
>> both at DC and Marvel who are not officially sanctioned but are never
>> treated as vigilantes. This analysis in fact ignores the fact that in
>> a world where superheroes have existed for decades, legal doctorine
>> will likely have come to some sort of accomodation with that fact.
>
>You will note when I said deputised by law enforcement I stated it
>could be official or unoficial. The fact that they aren't treated as
>vigilantes is, to me at least, an indication that there is a unoficial
>sanction of there activities whether it is specificaly stated or not.

I think this is too common in both the universes involved to be
unofficial; I expect that the law has been adjusted to deal with the
reality of the presence of superbeing.

>Indeed the legal doctrine to accomideate super heroes that you assume
>would arise is a de facto unoficial government sanction of them. This
>would result in new heroes recieveing a presumptive unoficial sanction
>untill they had either obtained official sanction (by good deeds,
>shmoozing the right politicians or simply pulling the wool over
>everyones eyes) or engaged in actions that caused the unoficial
>sanction to be withdrawn.

At which point talking about government sanction is effectively
meaningless; you just have superheroes and people who are, in
practice, supervillains.
 >> Stay informed about: Reality Shows and Superheros 

On 10 Jun 2004 14:14:52 -0700, rbrown DeleteThis @myriad.com (Richard Brown)
wrote:

>>
>
>No the super hero just has to wory about the fact that the crooks he
>nabbed will be back on the street before dawn because the police
>couldn't hold them due to the fact that the hero didn't folow the same
>procedures the police are suposed to. A bunch of trussed up guys in
>ski masks and a pile of guns doesn't prove they were caught in the
>commision of a crime unless it was also caught on film or videotape
>(in a world with ilisionists eye wittness testimony will be even less
>reliable). If the crook starts babling a convesion as soon as the
>cops arive that's even worse because it will be thrown out cause they
>didn't have a chance to give the Miranda warning.

In fact, a confession blurted out before the cops have had a chance
to even ask a question much less place an alleged criminal under
arrest is admissable.
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"David Johnston" <rgormannospam DeleteThis @telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:40c8f446.17701480@news.telusplanet.net...
> On 10 Jun 2004 14:14:52 -0700, rbrown DeleteThis @myriad.com (Richard Brown)
> wrote:
>
> >>
> >
> >No the super hero just has to wory about the fact that the crooks he
> >nabbed will be back on the street before dawn because the police
> >couldn't hold them due to the fact that the hero didn't folow the same
> >procedures the police are suposed to. A bunch of trussed up guys in
> >ski masks and a pile of guns doesn't prove they were caught in the
> >commision of a crime unless it was also caught on film or videotape
> >(in a world with ilisionists eye wittness testimony will be even less
> >reliable). If the crook starts babling a convesion as soon as the
> >cops arive that's even worse because it will be thrown out cause they
> >didn't have a chance to give the Miranda warning.
>
> In fact, a confession blurted out before the cops have had a chance
> to even ask a question much less place an alleged criminal under
> arrest is admissable.

Or cynical real world supers (who actually follow real criminal law) stumble
into a four color world...
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rbrown.RemoveThis@myriad.com (Richard Brown) abagooba zoink larblortch
news:5634e595.0406101656.454a5433@posting.google.com:

> That makes for an interesting campaign idea. Take a bunch of super
> heroes from the Silver Age and send them to the present, but let them

Reminds me of the issue of JSA when they came across their first biotech
lab.
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Dennis Francis Hefferman wrote:
>>> With or without magic/psi, secret ID's are a part of the genre that only
>>> work due to willing suspension of disbelief. When I GM supers, I tell
>>> my players straight up that if they want to maintain a secret ID they
>>> can, but they should be ready to have it broken by anyone who makes
>>> a serious effort to do so.
>>
>> I would think that would depend on too many different factors to make a
>> general statement like that.
>
> No, not really.

Yes, really. I wouldn't even consider it terribly realistic. If a person really
doesn't want to be discovered, then they'll be taking steps to make sure they
aren't discovered, and finding them won't be easy. As we speak, there are
thousands and thousands of people roaming the country under assumed names, and
it generally takes the government years to find even the places they've been.
If these people had superhuman powers to change their appearance and/or travel
at amazing speeds, they would, quite literally, never be caught.

> Look at how many people in real life manage to maintain a second life as a
> long-term proposition successfully. The number of successful (e.g.) spies
> and cheating husbands is dwarfed by the number of failures, and they don't
> have half the problems a superhero would have.

You realize that, as it is, we only catch about 35-40% of all criminals, right?
--
-=[ The BlakGard ]=-
"Somewhere there's danger;
somewhere there's injustice,
and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"
 >> Stay informed about: Reality Shows and Superheros 

"The Black Guardian" <blakgard RemoveThis @aol.coma.org> wrote in message
news:20040610234155.16160.00001012@mb-m15.aol.com...
> Dennis Francis Hefferman wrote:
> >>> With or without magic/psi, secret ID's are a part of the genre that
only
> >>> work due to willing suspension of disbelief. When I GM supers, I tell
> >>> my players straight up that if they want to maintain a secret ID they
> >>> can, but they should be ready to have it broken by anyone who makes
> >>> a serious effort to do so.
> >>
> >> I would think that would depend on too many different factors to make a
> >> general statement like that.
> >
> > No, not really.
>
> Yes, really. I wouldn't even consider it terribly realistic. If a person
really
> doesn't want to be discovered, then they'll be taking steps to make sure
they
> aren't discovered, and finding them won't be easy. As we speak, there are
> thousands and thousands of people roaming the country under assumed names,
and
> it generally takes the government years to find even the places they've
been.
> If these people had superhuman powers to change their appearance and/or
travel
> at amazing speeds, they would, quite literally, never be caught.
>
> > Look at how many people in real life manage to maintain a second life as
a
> > long-term proposition successfully. The number of successful (e.g.)
spies
> > and cheating husbands is dwarfed by the number of failures, and they
don't
> > have half the problems a superhero would have.
>
> You realize that, as it is, we only catch about 35-40% of all criminals,
right?
> --
> -=[ The BlakGard ]=-
> "Somewhere there's danger;
> somewhere there's injustice,
> and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"

Isn't Superman's disguise... glasses?
 >> Stay informed about: Reality Shows and Superheros 

The Black Guardian wrote:

> Yes, really. I wouldn't even consider it terribly realistic. If a person really
> doesn't want to be discovered, then they'll be taking steps to make sure they
> aren't discovered, and finding them won't be easy.

There is a difference between *not being discovered* and *having a secret
identity*. The latter is incompatible with the former.

> As we speak, there are
> thousands and thousands of people roaming the country under assumed names, and
> it generally takes the government years to find even the places they've been.

How many of those people are trying to live two completely separate lives at
once?

> If these people had superhuman powers to change their appearance and/or travel
> at amazing speeds, they would, quite literally, never be caught.

If all they wanted to do was go on the lam, sure, they'd have a big
advantage. If they were trying to be both Captain Amazing and Wally the
mild-mannered office gopher at the same time, that's a whole 'nother kettle of
fish.

And again: as soon as one decent telepath takes an interest, it's Game Over.

--
Dennis F. Heffernan CoH: Venture (Virtue) hefferman.DeleteThis@comcast.net
#include <disclaim.h> MS Messenger: Venture

"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days
when Victoria reigned!" -- T.S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
 >> Stay informed about: Reality Shows and Superheros 

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:00:54 -1000, "Warren Okuma" <wokuma.DeleteThis@lava.net>
wrote:

>>
>> In fact, a confession blurted out before the cops have had a chance
>> to even ask a question much less place an alleged criminal under
>> arrest is admissable.
>
>Or cynical real world supers (who actually follow real criminal law) stumble
>into a four color world...

Does that indicate you think I'm wrong? I'm not. Cops in the United
States must mirandize suspects before beginning to question them and
must stop questioning if the suspect asks for a lawyer until the
lawyer gets there. But information volunteered without any
questioning is fair game.
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