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Since: Apr 15, 2004
Posts: 117
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(Msg. 16) Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Time for Superhero Creation [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>games>frp>super-heroes (more info?)
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On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 12:35:26 -0500, Aaron Deskins
<ndeskins RemoveThis @ecn.purdue.edu> wrote:
>His response:
>
>Ye e-mailed me rather than posting. My numbers are
>Hero 2 hours
>M&M 15 minutes
These two seem a little long and a little short respectively to me,
and I don't think it's entirely a consequence of familiarity.
>SAS 45 minutes
Probably about right, though maybe on the short side.
>Marvel Saga 5 minutes
Only if you're extremely decisive. |
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Since: Apr 18, 2004
Posts: 32
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(Msg. 17) Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2004 6:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Time for Superhero Creation [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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> >Hero 2 hours
> >M&M 15 minutes
>
> These two seem a little long and a little short respectively to me,
> and I don't think it's entirely a consequence of familiarity.
>
They would, I'm very familiar with M&M now, and can put together numbers
quickly, I'm also very familiar with Hero but it takes significantly more
time to worry about certian aspects--I want my pc to be attractive, I make
it so in M&M, if I want to in ero I've got to evaluate just "how" attractive
is attractive by degrees of consequence. (Sure M&M has Charisma but it also
has the Feat "Beautiful" IIRC)
It's also to do with defense balancing--I don't /have/ to build a defense
for every M&M pc I make, the system is designed so that I don't need one all
the time, depending on PL, Hero on the other hand suggests designs where
/everyone/ has some form of defense-armor/damage reduction/deflection etc.
> >Marvel Saga 5 minutes
>
> Only if you're extremely decisive.
>
>
I am in all games I always approach them with "what I want to make" as a
matter of time measuring cause if I count how long it takes me to think
about what I want to make we might be counting time in years--I have a
speedster in my head for a LONG while, but never statted him up, although
I've got sketches of him, I finally statted him up for M&M, but the
"deciding what I want him to do" was over by that point, it was just using
the mechanics to get there.
Which since characters can and do percolate, I don't think the "genesis"
time should be recorded. |
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Since: Apr 15, 2004
Posts: 117
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(Msg. 18) Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Time for Superhero Creation [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:09:01 GMT, "Sidhain" <sidhain DeleteThis @earthlink.net>
wrote:
>
>
>> >Hero 2 hours
>> >M&M 15 minutes
>>
>> These two seem a little long and a little short respectively to me,
>> and I don't think it's entirely a consequence of familiarity.
>>
>
>They would, I'm very familiar with M&M now, and can put together numbers
>quickly, I'm also very familiar with Hero but it takes significantly more
>time to worry about certian aspects--I want my pc to be attractive, I make
>it so in M&M, if I want to in ero I've got to evaluate just "how" attractive
>is attractive by degrees of consequence. (Sure M&M has Charisma but it also
>has the Feat "Beautiful" IIRC)
Ah. More opportunity for decision paralysis. I can see that.
>
>It's also to do with defense balancing--I don't /have/ to build a defense
>for every M&M pc I make, the system is designed so that I don't need one all
>the time, depending on PL, Hero on the other hand suggests designs where
>/everyone/ has some form of defense-armor/damage reduction/deflection etc.
I'm not sure I can agree unless you don't consider Amazing Save a
defense, Sid. Someone without _something_ there is going to fold up
early in a fight (and may do so even if hard to hit; it's not a
coincidence they give even their Speedsters and Martial Artists
Evasion).
>
>
>> >Marvel Saga 5 minutes
>>
>> Only if you're extremely decisive.
>>
>>
>
>I am in all games I always approach them with "what I want to make" as a
>matter of time measuring cause if I count how long it takes me to think
I just observed that trading off card placement could get _very_ long
if you couldn't quickly settle.
>Which since characters can and do percolate, I don't think the "genesis"
>time should be recorded.
I just think the fact you can't do some of that before playing the
cards out makes it more part of the process here; if I go into the
game with a very specific character in mind, the card distribution may
make them simply undoable; you really need to generate the character
idea after seeing the available cards (though the cards don't exactly
_mandate_ what character you play. But they do limit what's
practical). >> Stay informed about: Time for Superhero Creation |
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Since: Apr 15, 2004
Posts: 117
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(Msg. 19) Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Time for Superhero Creation [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 17:47:45 GMT, John Turner
<averyk.DeleteThis@ev1.REMOVETHISBITTOREPLY.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 09:46:49 -0500, Aaron Deskins
><ndeskins.DeleteThis@ecn.purdue.edu> wrote:
>
>>Hello all,
>> I'm wondering if the knowledgable ones can tell me about how long it
>>takes to create a character with all the different super hero rpg
>>systems out there.
>>
>>Thanks
>
>That really depends on the player and the system. I can make a
>Champions character faster than I can make a character for any other
>system. I know how the rulebook is structured, I know all the powers,
>and I know what power levels are effective. 10 minutes, easy. I
I've gotten so I know MnM almost as well; what I don't have yet is the
intuitive feeling for what designs are too big for a given point range
the way I do in Hero. When I was recently putting together the big
opponent for my upcoming campaign, I had a specific PL range I wanted
him in, and it turned out I was loading him down with way too many
extras to fit him to it initially. So I had to strip out things.
Someone inexperienced with Hero could easily find themselves doing the
same thing. >> Stay informed about: Time for Superhero Creation |
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Since: Apr 14, 2004
Posts: 117
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(Msg. 20) Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Time for Superhero Creation [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Tom Carman wrote:
> "Sorcier" <sNoErMcOier RemoveThis @cavtel.net> wrote in message
> news:nKkjc.88$8M3.30492@news.uswest.net...
>
>>
>>A major reason I no longer play Champions is that as I became
>>more experienced with the rules I kept trying more and more
>>complex characters. A "simple energy projector" loses some
>>interest after a while. It was taking me more and more time to
>>build characters the better I knew the system! Yeah, I could
>>slap together a cliched brick in a few minutes but to stat
>>an interesting (to me) character or NPC could take hours and that
>>was just too much time to devote to each bad guys in a large
>>villian organization that I'd get to use maybe every four games,
>>playing a game every other weekend or so.
>
>
> So did I. So I stopped bothering to make that effort. Only stat-out an NPC
> if you really really need a fully rounded character.
That's the prob. I usually do need that.
> Otherwise you just
> need a name (for the big bads)
My players hate when I pull that.  >> Stay informed about: Time for Superhero Creation |
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Since: Apr 14, 2004
Posts: 117
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(Msg. 21) Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Time for Superhero Creation [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Wayne Shaw wrote:
>
>>Marval Saga is still my current pick as it's easy to justify creating
>>a new power as opposed to tweaking the rules to get something
>>just right.
>
>
> Of course then you're just creating and (trying) to balance new powers
> instead. Not much net gain there.
Actually, the system handles the balance issue pretty well there.
With rare exceptions. >> Stay informed about: Time for Superhero Creation |
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Since: Apr 15, 2004
Posts: 117
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(Msg. 22) Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 10:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Time for Superhero Creation [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:31:24 -0400, Sorcier <sNoErMcOier.TakeThisOut@cavtel.net>
wrote:
>Wayne Shaw wrote:
>
>>
>>>Marval Saga is still my current pick as it's easy to justify creating
>>>a new power as opposed to tweaking the rules to get something
>>>just right.
>>
>>
>> Of course then you're just creating and (trying) to balance new powers
>> instead. Not much net gain there.
>
>Actually, the system handles the balance issue pretty well there.
>With rare exceptions.
Not in my observation when we were using it. MSHAG did not seem
particularly well mechanically balanced. >> Stay informed about: Time for Superhero Creation |
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Since: Apr 14, 2004
Posts: 117
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(Msg. 23) Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Time for Superhero Creation [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Wayne Shaw wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:31:24 -0400, Sorcier <sNoErMcOier DeleteThis @cavtel.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Wayne Shaw wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Marval Saga is still my current pick as it's easy to justify creating
>>>>a new power as opposed to tweaking the rules to get something
>>>>just right.
>>>
>>>
>>>Of course then you're just creating and (trying) to balance new powers
>>>instead. Not much net gain there.
>>
>>Actually, the system handles the balance issue pretty well there.
>>With rare exceptions.
>
>
> Not in my observation when we were using it. MSHAG did not seem
> particularly well mechanically balanced.
It really only has one mechanic as far as powers go.
All powers boil down to effect vs. resistance.
(or vice versa)
That said, the game really isn't aimed at the "a point of X must be
of equal worth to a point of Y" crowd.
Part of why I like it.
Point based games try to maintain that illusion, but it's too easy
to break. >> Stay informed about: Time for Superhero Creation |
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Since: Apr 18, 2004
Posts: 32
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(Msg. 24) Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 12:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Time for Superhero Creation [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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>
> I just think the fact you can't do some of that before playing the
> cards out makes it more part of the process here; if I go into the
> game with a very specific character in mind, the card distribution may
> make them simply undoable; you really need to generate the character
> idea after seeing the available cards (though the cards don't exactly
> _mandate_ what character you play. But they do limit what's
> practical).
Sometimes yes-- I've never been completely un-able to make a character I
desired either--the only time came close was a spur of the moment game when
I wanted to make a superstrong/tough character and got gypped on strength
cards--hhowever I had no strong concept either since it was a spur of the
moment game (actually one of the few times I didn't have my "next" character
in my head already) and I ended up wit a smart brick who had a magic sword,
shield and armor rather than Hulk like strength.
By the same token, the randomness helps prevent any guaranteed optimization
on a player's part because they don't know what exactly they'll get. >> Stay informed about: Time for Superhero Creation |
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Since: Apr 18, 2004
Posts: 32
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(Msg. 25) Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 12:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Time for Superhero Creation [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Wayne Shaw" <shaw.TakeThisOut@caprica.com> wrote in message
news:10cfa7b6a93c5f243afb918e0f66f9cb@news.nntpserver.com...
> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:31:24 -0400, Sorcier <sNoErMcOier.TakeThisOut@cavtel.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Wayne Shaw wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>>Marval Saga is still my current pick as it's easy to justify creating
> >>>a new power as opposed to tweaking the rules to get something
> >>>just right.
> >>
> >>
> >> Of course then you're just creating and (trying) to balance new powers
> >> instead. Not much net gain there.
> >
> >Actually, the system handles the balance issue pretty well there.
> >With rare exceptions.
>
> Not in my observation when we were using it. MSHAG did not seem
> particularly well mechanically balanced.
I've used it for a significant time, it depends a great deal on what you
mean "balanced" if you mean "all pc's built so they are exactly balanced by
constructed comparable plan" no, but if you mean "makes all characters
capable of succeeding and getting equal spotlight time" then yes it is
balanced. >> Stay informed about: Time for Superhero Creation |
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Since: Apr 15, 2004
Posts: 117
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(Msg. 26) Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 3:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Time for Superhero Creation [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:48:23 GMT, "Sidhain" <sidhain DeleteThis @earthlink.net>
wrote:
>
>"Wayne Shaw" <shaw DeleteThis @caprica.com> wrote in message
>news:10cfa7b6a93c5f243afb918e0f66f9cb@news.nntpserver.com...
>> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:31:24 -0400, Sorcier <sNoErMcOier DeleteThis @cavtel.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Wayne Shaw wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>>Marval Saga is still my current pick as it's easy to justify creating
>> >>>a new power as opposed to tweaking the rules to get something
>> >>>just right.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Of course then you're just creating and (trying) to balance new powers
>> >> instead. Not much net gain there.
>> >
>> >Actually, the system handles the balance issue pretty well there.
>> >With rare exceptions.
>>
>> Not in my observation when we were using it. MSHAG did not seem
>> particularly well mechanically balanced.
>
>
>I've used it for a significant time, it depends a great deal on what you
>mean "balanced" if you mean "all pc's built so they are exactly balanced by
>constructed comparable plan" no, but if you mean "makes all characters
>capable of succeeding and getting equal spotlight time" then yes it is
>balanced.
I mean "Some powers are sufficiently more useful and powerful than
others they aren't balanced". I'm not going to get into spotlight
time because that's too easily preturbed by GMing style, and as such
is hard to pin down to system.
I'm also not going to bother to get into specifics with you on this
subject as we went around about it when MSHAG was still a going
concern and I doubt either of us has changed our position. >> Stay informed about: Time for Superhero Creation |
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Since: Apr 15, 2004
Posts: 117
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(Msg. 27) Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 3:58 pm
Post subject: Re: Time for Superhero Creation [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:46:21 GMT, "Sidhain" <sidhain.DeleteThis@earthlink.net>
wrote:
>
>
>>
>> I just think the fact you can't do some of that before playing the
>> cards out makes it more part of the process here; if I go into the
>> game with a very specific character in mind, the card distribution may
>> make them simply undoable; you really need to generate the character
>> idea after seeing the available cards (though the cards don't exactly
>> _mandate_ what character you play. But they do limit what's
>> practical).
>
>
>Sometimes yes-- I've never been completely un-able to make a character I
If your primary powers are all governed by suites you didn't get any
of, I'd call that close enough to being completely undoable for my
purpose.
>cards--hhowever I had no strong concept either since it was a spur of the
>moment game (actually one of the few times I didn't have my "next" character
>in my head already) and I ended up wit a smart brick who had a magic sword,
>shield and armor rather than Hulk like strength.
Well, note I was only talking about problems with making a _specific_
character; if you have several you'll be equally happy with, then it's
not a problem (unless for some reason they're all dependent on the
same suits).
>
>
>By the same token, the randomness helps prevent any guaranteed optimization
>on a player's part because they don't know what exactly they'll get.
Most of the balance issues in MSHAG didn't have much to do with
optimization but simply specific powers or stunts being out of
balance, so I don't see that really made much of a difference. >> Stay informed about: Time for Superhero Creation |
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Since: Apr 15, 2004
Posts: 117
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(Msg. 28) Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 4:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Time for Superhero Creation [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 23:45:34 -0400, Sorcier <sNoErMcOier.DeleteThis@cavtel.net>
wrote:
>Wayne Shaw wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:31:24 -0400, Sorcier <sNoErMcOier.DeleteThis@cavtel.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Wayne Shaw wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Marval Saga is still my current pick as it's easy to justify creating
>>>>>a new power as opposed to tweaking the rules to get something
>>>>>just right.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Of course then you're just creating and (trying) to balance new powers
>>>>instead. Not much net gain there.
>>>
>>>Actually, the system handles the balance issue pretty well there.
>>>With rare exceptions.
>>
>>
>> Not in my observation when we were using it. MSHAG did not seem
>> particularly well mechanically balanced.
>
>It really only has one mechanic as far as powers go.
>All powers boil down to effect vs. resistance.
>(or vice versa)
That's both true and inaccurate, since some powers aren't direct
attack, and some attacks have more profound effects than others.
These are where the problem children tended to lay.
>
>That said, the game really isn't aimed at the "a point of X must be
>of equal worth to a point of Y" crowd.
>Part of why I like it.
>Point based games try to maintain that illusion, but it's too easy
>to break.
On the other hand when some attacks are no brainers and some powers
give you sufficiently much more than others, I can't call that any
sort of real mechanical game balance. >> Stay informed about: Time for Superhero Creation |
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Since: Apr 14, 2004
Posts: 117
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(Msg. 29) Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:59 am
Post subject: Re: Time for Superhero Creation [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Wayne Shaw wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 23:45:34 -0400, Sorcier <sNoErMcOier DeleteThis @cavtel.net>
> wrote:
>
>>That said, the game really isn't aimed at the "a point of X must be
>>of equal worth to a point of Y" crowd.
>>Part of why I like it.
>>Point based games try to maintain that illusion, but it's too easy
>>to break.
>
>
> On the other hand when some attacks are no brainers and some powers
> give you sufficiently much more than others, I can't call that any
> sort of real mechanical game balance.
I'm not aware of a game where that isn't the case. >> Stay informed about: Time for Superhero Creation |
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Since: Apr 23, 2004
Posts: 163
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(Msg. 30) Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:09 am
Post subject: Re: Time for Superhero Creation [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 21:36:23 GMT, Wayne Shaw <shaw DeleteThis @caprica.com> wrote:
>
>I've gotten so I know MnM almost as well; what I don't have yet is the
>intuitive feeling for what designs are too big for a given point range
>the way I do in Hero. When I was recently putting together the big
>opponent for my upcoming campaign, I had a specific PL range I wanted
>him in, and it turned out I was loading him down with way too many
>extras to fit him to it initially. So I had to strip out things.
What I notice about it is that MnM is the only supers game where
I can't look at a character and instantly know whether he's
kickass or a putz. >> Stay informed about: Time for Superhero Creation |
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