So when do you guys play DS, anyway?

External Since: Apr 13, 2004 Posts: 993

On 2005-04-29, The Triad <wanderer RemoveThis @beeb.web> wrote:
><snip>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And for some reason, even after all the gnarlers
>>>>>>>>>>>>> die,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> always come back.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Eggs.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Huh. You're sure? What about after all the eggs have hatched
>>>>>>>>>>> (or
>>>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>>>> eaten by those green things that we've forgotten the name of)?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Then they don't come back, I think.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Strangely enough, eventually, (as far as I can remember) they do.
>>>>>>>>> And
>>>>>>>>> that's the odd thing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Have a look at the scripts. If there is anything getting them back
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> should be found in there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *begin to speak, then stops, several times*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *thinks*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One word: Where?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bootstrap/^H\001\ World
>>>>>
>>>>> *sees lots of .cos files*
>>>>
>>>> Well, grep them! Or whatever you use for doing full test searches. In
>>>> fact I think it was called Gnarler.cos...
>>>
>>> 'grep'... that word is only familiar because someone used it in
>>> reference
>>> to searching through a backpack in a website about deconstructing
>>> apparently
>>> everything.
>>
>> Let's just say it's a very helpful little program(sp?!)...
>
> The spelling is correct, if you mean the word that I think you mean.

I did. But the question is, if I shouldN#t have written programme
instead. (AE/BE)

>>> *wonders how exactly one does/would do a full test search*
>>
>> Erm, *text*, not test. Sorry for me tyoping in such a confusing way.
>> Again.
>
> Oh.
>
> Does one open it in notepad?

grep

>>>>> Incidentally, what was the purpose of the ^H and the slash between the
>>>>> 001
>>>>> and the World?
>>>>
>>>> Well, '^H' - reads CTRL+H - is equivalent to backspace. It's a unix
>>>> thing. And you are used to have a backlslash separating directories
>>>> while the right way (the unix way) to do it is a slash. You can figure
>>>> the rest out on your own.
>>>
>>> Ah. *nods slightly*
>>>
>>> Do you generally use [a] unix?
>>
>> I use Linux. Technically close enough, but *leagally* not Unix.
>> Trademarks and stuff.
>
> Ahh. *nods slightly*

Not that I *didn't* mention that before the one or other time (=all the
time).

>>> And can you run Creatures on it?
>>
>> Of course I can.
>
> ...with graphics? [/ignorant]

Beautifully rendered ASCII art, of course. What did *you* think. Some
people...

>>><snip>
>>>>>> Norns don't have to obey any energy conservation laws. You can't only
>>>>>> implement photosynthesis, but even energy from nothing. The model
>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>> very realistic in that respect.
>>>>>
>>>>> Erm, yes. But if one /wanted/ to just implement photosynthesis, rather
>>>>> than
>>>>> coming out with another batch of Highlanders...
>>>>
>>>> Not much you can do to prevent it, really.
>>>
>>> Please elaborate.
>>
>> The genetics allow everything. Get a decent rate of genetic defects and
>> sooner or later you end up with a metabolism that *should* be
>> impossible. Only it isn't.
>
> Pity. Ah, well. (...have a long-enough wolfing run...)

No, I think I won't.

><snip>
>>>>>>> presumably... or actually, maybe not. No, wait, /yes/. *nods* If
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>> left 'off', then there would only be a problem if you had a feedback
>>>>>>> loop
>>>>>>> whereby one could start with a certain amount of, say, oxygen, and
>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>> via
>>>>>>> some route change that amount of oxygen directly into a greater
>>>>>>> amount
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> oxygen (thereby violating one of the laws of thermodynamics, which is
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the most important things to avoid here...).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Problem: I don't know how to get Norns to do that kind of thing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Would one want to?
>>>>
>>>> You seem to.
>>>
>>> Erm, no. That's the problem that I want to /avoid/. Or are you
>>> referring
>>> to getting Norns to avoid violating the laws of thermodynamics? In which
>>> case, one would probably need a separate system--whereby you /couldn't/
>>> get
>>> something from nothing--akin to something discussed in the near vicinity
>>> of
>>> here a shortish while ago.
>>
>> Here?
>
> Yes. Here. *shifty eyes*

Ah, here!

>>>>>>> Now, what would be a lot harder would be if one tried to model where
>>>>>>> specific concentrations of gasses were /within one room/. It would
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You'd have to divide it in different cells and implement some way of
>>>>>> gas
>>>>>> flow... erm, that's already in there. The whole CA system.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh. Really?
>>>>>
>>>>> /Very/ interesting. *smiles*
>>>>
>>>> Well, it's just smell...
>>>
>>> So? As long as a bit can be tweaked so that the relevant 'gasses' don't
>>> decay on their own...
>>
>> Hm... tough.
>
> Can it be done? (Or could it, some day... which is /probably/ a 'yes'.)

I don't know. I haven't looked at the CA documentation for ages.

>>> (And where do Norns get oxygen from normally, anyway? Or do their lungs
>>> generate it on their own?)
>>
>> I think there's some CA called air that gets turned into oxygen. But I
>> could be wrong.
>
> Hmm. *wonders where air comes from*

Either it's a CA or produced by some receptor...

> Good point--underwater, there's no air/oxygen.

But there was something strange about that. I think you didn't get much
'water' underwater. At least I killed some supposedly amphibic Norn
because of something like that.

><snip>
>>>>>>> The only problem left is with pressure getting too high, then; and
>>>>>>> really,
>>>>>>> with the 'special' cases dealt with, it's not really critical... and
>>>>>>> said
>>>>>>> remaining problem is messy enough that it's likely worth postponing
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> later date. So, cancel 'pressure'; just concentrate on amounts of
>>>>>>> gas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pressure *is* amounts of gas. Ever seen that one: pV=nRT
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, yes--however, one could theoretically have a near-infinite amount
>>>>> of
>>>>> gas
>>>>> in the room without the walls noticing, unless one put in something to
>>>>> have
>>>>> each mol of gas take up space, or something along those lines, in which
>>>>> case
>>>>> one would be somewhat closer to being able to have the walls rupture
>>>>> from
>>>>> too much gas inside. Numbers...
>>>>
>>>> I didn't realize you were going to explode the ship.
>>>
>>> *whistles*
>>
>> Try another tune for a change, would you? It's getting kinda boring.
>
> *whistles innocently*

Nice one.

>>> Seriously, it's one of the only cases where there would be an effect...
>>> no,
>>> wait, one would probably /also/ want to put in Creatures/plants/animals
>>> being crushed into a pulp first. Hrm.
>>
>> They wouldn't get crushed into a pulp.
>
> Erm? If the pressure was /high/ enough...

No, I think what would happen is that the gas would get into the cells
and make them explode like apples after rain. (osmose/diffusion) But
only at extremely high pressures if at all.

>> It's just the lungs that'd no
>> longer work... though I'm not sure what exactly would happen. If you
>> rose it gradually it you might reach quite high pressures before you get
>> problems. It's fast decompression that get's your blood cooking. (More
>> or less literally. IIRC the gases in the blood stream change into gasous
>> phase and therefore your whole metabolism breaks down.)
>
> *nods* Undissolving, or something on those lines... 'the bends'. Urgh.

Like injecting champain into your veins...

>>>>>>> Maybe it's a little unrealistic when there's /no/ gas left... but,
>>>>>>> well,
>>>>>>> worse unrealistic things could be there. Ah, well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (...now, how to deal with large amounts of gas building up... maybe
>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>> systems could work in the same general way as the atmospheric
>>>>>>> controller,
>>>>>>> 'breathing' a percentage of all? And if there's not a high enough
>>>>>>> percentage of oxygen, or carbon dioxide... *smiles quietly*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Still some problems, but... there's hope.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That reminds us--has anyone done experiments with plants that mutated
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> evolved within the Creatures multiverse?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think so. Nothing that got into a useable stage, though. AFAIK
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, well. Thank you.
>>>>>
>>>>> (...let's see. Presumably /both/ the atmospheric controll--argh, have
>>>>> to
>>>>> go.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Back.
>>>>>
>>>>> Solution (or at least partial solution) to the problem of too much gas
>>>>> in
>>>>> a
>>>>> terrarium: imagine a worst-case senario, with an Agent that expels gas
>>>>> while taking in none. Taking into account the CA system you
>>>>> referenced,
>>>>
>>>> Bummer.
>>>
>>> Hrm? How so?
>>
>> Well, if you get more and more gas... there's a point when the ship hull
>> *will* explode.
>
> Yep.
>
>> Not much of a problem on a planet, though.
>
> True--gravity is only strong enough to hold so much close enough to the
> planet's surface, so all the rest goes further up... and possibly drifts
> away. Hrm. *wonders if the solar wind would be involved in that process*

If there wasn't the magnetic field of the earth it'd blow the whole
athmosphere away, IIRC.

>>>>> presumably if the amount of gas in one cell grew past its neighbours,
>>>>> the
>>>>> pressure would equalise; thus, pressure on a whole would rise... and
>>>>> then,
>>>>> once it reached a certain threshold, the atmospheric controller (argh,
>>>>> still
>>>>> can't remember the name for it... do you remember that big blue
>>>>> upside-down
>>>>> egg thingamajig in C3?) would begin removing air, reabsorbing it as it
>>>>> were.
>>>>
>>>> 'Atmospheric Gizmo' - and it just made clouds.
>>>
>>> Ah, right. What did they do (the clouds), anyway?
>>
>> Rain.
>
> Oh. And rain did what?

Moisture and lowering the temperature, I think.

>>> In any case... it could probably be co-opted for broader purposes.
>>> *smiles
>>> grimly*
>>
>> Of course. I can turn a carrot into a bomb Wink

>
> Ooo. What does said bomb-carrot do? *wonders*

Whatever I want it to do.

> And can you grow them? (And can they compete with non-bomb carrots?)

If I like.

>>>>> The higher the pressure, the faster it would reabsorb it; the more gas
>>>>> being
>>>>> produced per second, the higher the pressure, the faster gas would get
>>>>> from
>>>>> where it was produced to where it was to be absorbed. A pity there
>>>>> isn't
>>>>> a
>>>>> real 'wind' system...
>>>>
>>>> Too complex.
>>>>
>>>>> ...though actually, that raises an interesting point. In a sense, in
>>>>> some
>>>>> respects there /could/ be a 'wind'... as gas in general came from
>>>>> somewhere
>>>>> and went to somewhere else to be removed, it would be a lot harder to
>>>>> smell
>>>>> something if one was 'upwind' of it, rather than downwind. *grins*
>>>>
>>>> No, every CA works indepently from the others. Only diffusion, no
>>>> streaming.
>>>
>>> Oh. *thinks*
>>>
>>> By that, are you saying that one could not have a higher 'pressure' than
>>> the
>>> others, leading to more diffusion out than in?
>>
>> Look, you can alter the partitial pressures of the CAs and this of
>> course means that this special CA *will* get through the walls (if
>> permitted) and try to equal the amounts in the cells around it.
>
> Good.
>
>> But for
>> real wind you need much more than that. You need particles with a mass
>> than can give *other* particles an impulse and only _then_ you get wind.
>> The CAs however have no mass and are generally behaving like an ideal
>> gas.
>
> ...oh. Right. It doesn't affect the other CA/s?

I don't think so.

> (Unfortunate. Perhaps changable, but... unfortunate none the less.)

I think that's not changeable. As I said they implemented diffusion.
Gases work like that, you know. It's just the sun that starts the whole
wind business, actually.

>>> (...just the same percentage of them all, though, in all directions...
>>> in
>>> those with more, more would leave... in those with less, less would
>>> leave... until equilibrium was reached...)
>>
>> Yup. ... I think.
>
> *smiles [albeit, at this point, slightly]*

?

>>>>>>>>>>> ...if one could kill off all the plants, tell the
>>>>>>>>>>> seed-thingamajigs
>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> produce any more automatically,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Oh, that's easy.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> With or without involving third-party Agents and/or CAOS?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Without CAOS... probably not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Unfortunate. The common user would want an intuitive interface,
>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can always make an interface for CAOS. That's the point. I just
>>>>>> use
>>>>>> raw code because it's easier (and doesn't need any polish).
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmm. *nods slightly...*
>>>>>
>>>>> Have I/we mentioned that the common user would also want eye candy (in
>>>>> reference to said interface) to match the rest of the eye candy?
>>>>
>>>> Feel free to make eye candy then.
>>>
>>> There's a problem. No idea how to make eye candy. Or rather, I can't
>>> draw.
>>
>> Same here.
>
> Ah, well.
>
> ...some day, with /effective/ physics (including light) and world
> simulation, rather than sprites...

....you'd need even more skills to do the graphics.

>>>>> (Remember that effect as the control panel came out? Wonderful... if
>>>>> a
>>>>> pity that it was so relatively limited. Still; wonderful. *smiles*)
>>>>
>>>> Which control panel do you mean?
>>>
>>> Hrm. You remember those four things, on the tree-stump like things,
>>> where
>>> you could adjust the light and humidity and the like? Those things.
>>
>> Ah, *these* panels. And of course I remember them - I brought them up in
>> the first place.
>
> *nods* Thought so--that's why your question was somewhat confusing.
>
>>>>>>> mucking about (apologise for the choice of words) with the basic
>>>>>>> structure
>>>>>>> of the world (where they could also do /serious/ damage) via a
>>>>>>> programming
>>>>>>> language that they'd first have to learn--which would lower the
>>>>>>> appeal
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> doing the same enjoyable things considerably.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ...one wants to manipulate things in the world as the /Hand/, as
>>>>>>> one's
>>>>>>> given--or rather, chosen--role within the world, rather than as
>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>> tinkering with the world behind-the-scenes...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One wants. I don't. I like CLIs Wink

>>>>>> (CLI=Commans Line Interface)
>>>>>
>>>>> Your preference; your choice. *nods* Others might have their own
>>>>> opinions.
>>>>>
>>>>> *makes a brief snerking sound at the mental image of Creatures as a
>>>>> MUD*
>>>>>
>>>>> You see a maze of twisty passages, all alike.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is a Grendel to the north.
>>>>
>>>> <g>
>>>> throw stone north
>>>> run south
>>>
>>> You see a maze of twisty passages, all alike.
>>> There is an Ettin here.
>>> There is a brass lantern here.
>>>
>>> The Ettin takes the brass lantern.
>>>
>>> The Ettin has gone east.
>>
>> east
>
> You see a maze of twisty passages, all alike.
>
> There is a detritus here.

Where is that damn Ettin? Oh, well...

eat detritus

>>>>>>> There's an important distinction between the sorts of things that one
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> and not do without disillusioning oneself in one's escapist
>>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>> Creating cheese out of thin air? Certainly. Reaching down into a
>>>>>>> tangle
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> code and flipping a bit, hoping that later one will be able to
>>>>>>> remember
>>>>>>> exactly where one reached down, which bit one flipped? Hoping that
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> remember /how/ exactly to undo what one has done, or having to write
>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>> what one said, what one would have to say to unsay it, and hoping
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>> doesn't lose one's notes? Not preferable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Erm what?
>>>>>
>>>>> There's always the worry that one might forget how to use CAOS, and if
>>>>> one
>>>>> just wants to sit down to relax, having to flip through a manual to
>>>>> look
>>>>> up
>>>>> the exact programming terminology for what one wants to do might not be
>>>>> preferable.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, it has a help system. I never flip through a manual.
>>>
>>> ....
>>>
>>> ......
>>>
>>> ........!
>>>
>>> ............!?!!!?!!!!
>>>
>>> ....very glad I wasn't eating something just then. HOW THE HELLS DO YOU
>>> ACCESS THE HELP SYSTEM!? *blinks; closes eyelids over eyes; pushes eyes
>>> back firmly and/or gently fully into their sockets*
>>
>> There are two commands for that (basicly giving you the same info the
>> CAOS doc gives you - because the CAOS doc is compiled from these) called
>> APRO and HELP. Help gives you a list of all commands or help to a
>> specific command (help "help"), APRO will search the descriptions for a
>> word you define and print a list of commands it found it in.
>
> How exactly does one hyperventilate?

Erm, *what*?!

>>>>>>>>>>> fill the Terrariums with vacuum or carbon
>>>>>>>>>>> dioxide... or, heh, just remove all the grazers and Norns and
>>>>>>>>>>> fill
>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>> with pure, unadulterated oxygen...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ...oo. Solution! Carbon monoxide! Neither plants /nor/
>>>>>>>>>>> Creatures
>>>>>>>>>>> able
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> survive... 'dead zones', not even mattering that the seeders
>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>> keep
>>>>>>>>>>> spitting out seeds, because no plants could live... all Norns
>>>>>>>>>>> fearing,
>>>>>>>>>>> staying far, farrr away... or perishing... the /only/ habitable
>>>>>>>>>>> zones
>>>>>>>>>>> being those that the Hand decreed--or decided, rather, not
>>>>>>>>>>> bothering
>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> decree--/would/ be...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *cackles manically; longs for that kind of power*
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> enum 3 0 0 kill targ next enum 4 0 0 kill targ next
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Meaning? (And if that means what we think it means, it somewhat
>>>>>>>>> defeats
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> point.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, that *should* get rid of any plants and animals (and
>>>>>>>> creatures)...
>>>>>>>> ...and some othher things.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [dry] Oh joy. [/dry]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hey, I didn't the exact identifiers up. You can easily restrict it to
>>>>>> the things you want killed.
>>>>>
>>>>> (Didn't what the exact identifiers up?)
>>>>
>>>> Look up.
>>>
>>> Ah.
>>>
>>> ([semi-humour] Didn't look up the exact identifiers up? *looks at you
>>> oddly* [/semi-humour])
>>
>> Each agent is categorized by a three part identifier - like "4 0 0"
>> which means "every creature".
>
> Reread my sentence. Pay close attention to the grammar. Though thank you.

Oh.
--
emmel <the_emmel*you-know-what-that's-for*@gmx.net>
(Don't forget to remove the ** bit)

Official AGC feedback maniac

"God is playing creatures - and we're the norns."

"A hundred dead are a tragedy - a hundred thousand are statistics."

"I guess you can call yourself lucky." -
"I could, but Linda suits me a little better... Smile

Things called lucky tend to get hit by trucks."

Hi, I'm a .sig virus. Just copy me to your .signature. And don't worry.

External Since: Apr 13, 2004 Posts: 993

On 2005-04-30, Thomas J. Boschloo <nospam RemoveThis @hccnet.nl.invalid> wrote:
>
> The Triad wrote:
>> "Thomas J. Boschloo" <nospam RemoveThis @hccnet.nl.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:426a65e9$0$14348$3a628fcd@reader2.nntp.hccnet.nl...
>>
>>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>
>>>The Triad wrote:
>>>
>>>>"emmel" <the_emmel*whatever*@gmx.net> wrote in message
>>>>news:slrnd6a09m.89r.the_emmel*whatever*@btcipinf22.cip.uni-bayreuth.de...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On 2005-04-18, The Triad <wanderer RemoveThis @beeb.web> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"emmel" <the_emmel*whatever*@gmx.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:slrnd6776p.78g.the_emmel*whatever*@btcipinf21.cip.uni-bayreuth.de...
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>>>that the Earth Simulator doesn't even manage to do that
>>>>>>>in dept, do you?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>We're not talking about handling it in depth... just handling the
>>>>>>general
>>>>>>concentrations of various gasses, as well as perhaps the pressure
>>>>>>exerted by
>>>>>>the air (or lack thereof).
>>>>>
>>>>>Still. The computing power needed would be enourmous.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Er? Not /that/ much... you could simply have an array of numbers for
>>>>each
>>>>room, detailing the amount of each gas in it--the 'pressure' could be the
>>>>number resulting from adding all the numbers together, and the
>>>>ventilation
>>>>system (or whatever you call it) could reclaim gas as well as excrete it
>>>>when altering the balance of gasses--the same percentage of each,
>>>>presumably... or actually, maybe not. No, wait, /yes/. *nods* If it
>>>>were
>>>>left 'off', then there would only be a problem if you had a feedback loop
>>>>whereby one could start with a certain amount of, say, oxygen, and then
>>>>via
>>>>some route change that amount of oxygen directly into a greater amount of
>>>>oxygen (thereby violating one of the laws of thermodynamics, which is one
>>>>of
>>>>the most important things to avoid here...).
>>>
>>>You would need a large vector computer for that.
>>
>>
>> How so?
>
> Vector computers can solve matrixes real fast. emmel also has a point
> though! Distributed computing is getting more and more common (in fact
> the next AMD processor will have no less than one, no, _two_ cores!).

Actually these are being sold for at least half a year now, IIRC.

> You need a massive gigabit network between the processors though for it
> to work.. (distributed computing is the only course I regret not taking
> at the uni).

I don't think they have that course here.
--
emmel <the_emmel*you-know-what-that's-for*@gmx.net>
(Don't forget to remove the ** bit)

Official AGC feedback maniac

"God is playing creatures - and we're the norns."

"A hundred dead are a tragedy - a hundred thousand are statistics."

"I guess you can call yourself lucky." -
"I could, but Linda suits me a little better... Smile

Things called lucky tend to get hit by trucks."

Hi, I'm a .sig virus. Just copy me to your .signature. And don't worry.