U7 vs. Baldur's Gate

Quoth Moscow Dragon <maxim__s DeleteThis @mtu-net.ru>:
[]
> I once saw BG, PS:T, Fallout and U7s (both) as "best RPGs ever made". Can
> somebody contribute to this list?

U6 had a better conversation engine than U7, one of the reasons I
preferred it. And Wasteland. UW2, possibly, and while I haven't yet
played it myself, I know a lot of people rate Gothic.

I've also heard it suggested that Deus Ex is an RPG, but that, for my
money, isn't so. It's a FPS with RPG overtones, certainly, but the
emphasis is squarely on the combat rather than character interaction
and development.
--
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 >> Stay informed about: U7 vs. Baldur's Gate 

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 >> Stay informed about: U7 vs. Baldur's Gate 

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 01:27:12 -0000, Samurai
<Samurai RemoveThis @his.reply-to.header> wrote:

>Quoth Moscow Dragon <maxim__s RemoveThis @mtu-net.ru>:
>[]
>> I once saw BG, PS:T, Fallout and U7s (both) as "best RPGs ever made". Can
>> somebody contribute to this list?

>U6 had a better conversation engine than U7, one of the reasons I
>preferred it. And Wasteland. UW2, possibly, and while I haven't yet
>played it myself, I know a lot of people rate Gothic.

>I've also heard it suggested that Deus Ex is an RPG, but that, for my
>money, isn't so. It's a FPS with RPG overtones, certainly, but the
>emphasis is squarely on the combat rather than character interaction
>and development.

Unlike, say, Baldur's Gate or, for that matter, Ultima 5? Almost all
CRPGs put the emphasis squarely on combat. It is usually the primary
method of skill advancement (e.g., gaining XP) and the usual method of
resolving conflicts. The primary difference in Deus Ex (and similar
"action-RPG") is that they rely, at least in part, on the PLAYER'S
skill to determine the outcome of the combat (or or any other actions
the player character might take, such as lockpicking or sneaking)
rather than relying solely on stats and numbers.

Arguably, this is truer to the "ideal" of a role-playing game, where
the player gets to take the role of some other person without all the
(or less) abstraction forced upon him by traditional role-playing
systems. It changes the game from "I click on my "hide in shadows"
skill button; it rolls a 90% , yay, I'm invisible" to "I move my
on-screen avatar so he ducks from the shadow in the corner of the
room, runs crouched along the wall and rolls under the desk; yay, I
got past unseen."
 >> Stay informed about: U7 vs. Baldur's Gate 

Quoth Spalls Hurgenson <yoinks.DeleteThis@ebalu.com>:
[]
> >I've also heard it suggested that Deus Ex is an RPG, but that, for my
> >money, isn't so. It's a FPS with RPG overtones, certainly, but the
> >emphasis is squarely on the combat rather than character interaction
> >and development.
>
> Unlike, say, Baldur's Gate or, for that matter, Ultima 5? Almost all
> CRPGs put the emphasis squarely on combat. It is usually the primary
> method of skill advancement (e.g., gaining XP) and the usual method of
> resolving conflicts.

I see what you're saying, and you're right, they do -- but the best
ones are about more than battles.

Of course there's going to be some overlap; adventure games, especially
the Quest for Glory series, had a strong CRPG element -- in fact, QfG
was more an RPG than most top-down/isometric games described as such.
Conversely, I still don't consider games like Diablo and Nox to be
CRPGs, because not only the emphasis, but the raison d'etre of the
game, is fighting everything in your path.

This just demonstrates there isn't a single definition we can point to
and say, "This is what makes a CRPG." But I can still have opinions on
the matter, and the limits I put on what makes one are fairly tight.


> The primary difference in Deus Ex (and similar
> "action-RPG") is that they rely, at least in part, on the PLAYER'S
> skill to determine the outcome of the combat (or or any other actions
> the player character might take, such as lockpicking or sneaking)
> rather than relying solely on stats and numbers.
>
> Arguably, this is truer to the "ideal" of a role-playing game, where
> the player gets to take the role of some other person without all the
> (or less) abstraction forced upon him by traditional role-playing
> systems.

I've never subscribed to the idea that every game is an RPG because
you're always playing the role of someone else. I don't see myself as
Max Payne or Lara Croft -- I merely direct their actions. When I play
proper RPGs, I /am/ my character (though he -- or she -- isn't always
me, of course). That was one of Ultima's great strengths: it made such
a view possible.

But in Deus Ex, I'm not JC Denton. I can change his appearance a bit,
but the fact remains he's a character in the story, not /my/ character.

> It changes the game from "I click on my "hide in shadows"
> skill button; it rolls a 90% , yay, I'm invisible" to "I move my
> on-screen avatar so he ducks from the shadow in the corner of the
> room, runs crouched along the wall and rolls under the desk; yay, I
> got past unseen."

As a veteran tabletop roleplayer, I think the abstraction of reality is
part of what the genre is about, unless one actually /is/ playing
oneself as a character. It's therefore required to some extent in
CRPGs, too.

In addition, CRPGs should offer a proper gameworld with locations the
player can revisit unless there's a good plot reason not to, and have
their eye on a higher goal that beating stuff up. Deus Ex offers the
latter in spades -- one of the reasons it's perhaps my very favourite
game -- but doesn't quite manage the former, alas.

YMMV, obviously.
--
___________________________________________________________
\^\^//
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ksj ^--^ ___________________________________________________________
 >> Stay informed about: U7 vs. Baldur's Gate 

> This just demonstrates there isn't a single definition we can point to
> and say, "This is what makes a CRPG." But I can still have opinions on

Conversations with NPCs + your personal stats.
Is it a good definition?

--
Max
 >> Stay informed about: U7 vs. Baldur's Gate 

Quoth Moscow Dragon <maxim__s.RemoveThis@mtu-net.ru>:
> > This just demonstrates there isn't a single definition we can point
> > to and say, "This is what makes a CRPG."
>
> Conversations with NPCs + your personal stats. Is it a good definition?

Diablo II features both those, yet remains a graphical Rogue-like
rather than a true CRPG, IMHO. Deus Ex also does -- I've set out my
views on that already.
--
___________________________________________________________
\^\^//
,^ ( ..) Samurai Dragon -==UDIC Sig Code==-
| \ \ -==(UDIC)==- d++e+N T--Om+U146MA7'! L8u uC++
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ksj ^--^ ___________________________________________________________
 >> Stay informed about: U7 vs. Baldur's Gate 

Samurai wrote:

> Quoth Spalls Hurgenson <yoinks DeleteThis @ebalu.com>:
> []
>> >I've also heard it suggested that Deus Ex is an RPG, but that, for my
>> >money, isn't so. It's a FPS with RPG overtones, certainly, but the
>> >emphasis is squarely on the combat rather than character interaction
>> >and development.
>>
>> Unlike, say, Baldur's Gate or, for that matter, Ultima 5? Almost all
>> CRPGs put the emphasis squarely on combat. It is usually the primary
>> method of skill advancement (e.g., gaining XP) and the usual method of
>> resolving conflicts.
>
> I see what you're saying, and you're right, they do -- but the best
> ones are about more than battles.
>
> Of course there's going to be some overlap; adventure games, especially
> the Quest for Glory series, had a strong CRPG element -- in fact, QfG
> was more an RPG than most top-down/isometric games described as such.
> Conversely, I still don't consider games like Diablo and Nox to be
> CRPGs, because not only the emphasis, but the raison d'etre of the
> game, is fighting everything in your path.
>
> This just demonstrates there isn't a single definition we can point to
> and say, "This is what makes a CRPG." But I can still have opinions on
> the matter, and the limits I put on what makes one are fairly tight.
>
>
>> The primary difference in Deus Ex (and similar
>> "action-RPG") is that they rely, at least in part, on the PLAYER'S
>> skill to determine the outcome of the combat (or or any other actions
>> the player character might take, such as lockpicking or sneaking)
>> rather than relying solely on stats and numbers.
>>
>> Arguably, this is truer to the "ideal" of a role-playing game, where
>> the player gets to take the role of some other person without all the
>> (or less) abstraction forced upon him by traditional role-playing
>> systems.
>
> I've never subscribed to the idea that every game is an RPG because
> you're always playing the role of someone else. I don't see myself as
> Max Payne or Lara Croft -- I merely direct their actions. When I play
> proper RPGs, I /am/ my character (though he -- or she -- isn't always
> me, of course). That was one of Ultima's great strengths: it made such
> a view possible.
>
> But in Deus Ex, I'm not JC Denton. I can change his appearance a bit,
> but the fact remains he's a character in the story, not /my/ character.

I was going to disagree on the strength of the fact that you can 'adjust'
the cast (i.e. choosing whether various characters live or die, or when)
but ultimately you're right. Although it allows many different approaches
and your relationship with the NPCs can vary considerably, ultimately you
aren't really in control of how the game flows.

> In addition, CRPGs should offer a proper gameworld with locations the
> player can revisit unless there's a good plot reason not to, and have
> their eye on a higher goal that beating stuff up. Deus Ex offers the
> latter in spades -- one of the reasons it's perhaps my very favourite
> game -- but doesn't quite manage the former, alas.

I must admit, the inability to revisit the entire world was one of the
things that was a letdown in Deus Ex. Particularly since it stores all
the data for the map locations that you can't ever visit again.. which
results in gigabytes of redundant savegame data without really trying.

>
> YMMV, obviously.

--
JP Morris - aka DOUG the Eagle (Dragon) -=UDIC=- jpm DeleteThis @it-he.org
Fun things to do with the Ultima games http://www.it-he.org
Reign of the Just - An Ultima clone http://rotj.it-he.org
d+++ e+ N+ T++ Om U1234!56!7'!S'!8!9!KAW u++ uC+++ uF+++ uG---- uLB----
uA--- nC+ nR---- nH+++ nP++ nI nPT nS nT wM- wC- y a(YEAR - 1976)
 >> Stay informed about: U7 vs. Baldur's Gate 

Quoth J. P. Morris <jpm RemoveThis @it-he.org>:
> Samurai wrote:
[]
> > But in Deus Ex, I'm not JC Denton. I can change his appearance a bit,
> > but the fact remains he's a character in the story, not /my/ character.
>
> I was going to disagree on the strength of the fact that you can 'adjust'
> the cast (i.e. choosing whether various characters live or die, or when)
> but ultimately you're right. Although it allows many different approaches
> and your relationship with the NPCs can vary considerably, ultimately you
> aren't really in control of how the game flows.

Indeed. At certain points, certain things must happen, and the player
has no control of them whatsoever.

> > In addition, CRPGs should offer a proper gameworld with locations the
> > player can revisit unless there's a good plot reason not to, and have
> > their eye on a higher goal that beating stuff up. Deus Ex offers the
> > latter in spades -- one of the reasons it's perhaps my very favourite
> > game -- but doesn't quite manage the former, alas.
>
> I must admit, the inability to revisit the entire world was one of the
> things that was a letdown in Deus Ex. Particularly since it stores all
> the data for the map locations that you can't ever visit again.. which
> results in gigabytes of redundant savegame data without really trying.

I did initially wonder why my old 20GB hard-disk was suddenly so full,
before I spotted how big some of those savegames were. <

Levels are the thing. A game that comes in levels must have each one
end in only a few different ways, or the next level won't make any
sense. That's the way most FPS games operate, but it's pretty alien to
the idea of shaping one's own destiny, as you pointed out with regard
to controlling game flow.

That said, it didn't disappoint me too much WRT Deus Ex, because I took
it for a FPS -- and viewed as such, it had unparalleled depth and
complexity. It just wasn't a terribly effective RPG.
--
___________________________________________________________
\^\^//
,^ ( ..) Samurai Dragon -==UDIC Sig Code==-
| \ \ -==(UDIC)==- d++e+N T--Om+U146MA7'! L8u uC++
\ `^--^ \\\\\\\/////// uF-uG++uLB+uA+nC++uR nH+nP+++
\ \ \ (2 Attentive Points) nI--nPT nS+++nT--wM-wC y+ a29
ksj ^--^ ___________________________________________________________
 >> Stay informed about: U7 vs. Baldur's Gate