Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures breaks all the current s..

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Ross Ridge <rridge DeleteThis @caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> writes:
>No, TheSmokingGnu is correct. The Valve System Survey is in fact
>the best publically available source of information about the sort of
>computers gamers actually have. Compared the sort of speculation you and
>Nostromo are engaging in, deviod of any sort of objective observations,
>TheSmokingGnu's argument is both well-reasoned and excellent.

Nostromo <nospam DeleteThis @forme.org> wrote:
>So you're smoking the same brand he is then Rossco? Cool. Just take a look
>at the mmogchart links I posted & tell me again that's not objective
>evidence/reasoning. In the real world, money talks, bullshit walks.

In the real world companies risk real money based on the Valve survey
and surveys like it. No one ever risked a cent on some Usenet poster's
bullshit reasoning.

Ross Ridge

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge DeleteThis @csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/
db //
 >> Stay informed about: Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures breaks all the current s.. 

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 >> Stay informed about: Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures breaks all the current s.. 

Thus spake TheSmokingGnu <anonymityisavirtue RemoveThis @1111011010011.com>, Fri, 02 May
2008 18:11:24 GMT, Anno Domini:

>Nostromo wrote:
>> Common sense.
>
>That's an opinion, not fact.

No, common sense IS a fact of life. Usually those with little of it like to
deny its existence ;-p (that's not to say I have much myself, but at least
I'm not in denial

>> Only Half-life fans or fairly _regular_, more diehard online
>> players even know about it. That's not the entire online game playing
>> population by a long stretch.
>
>Of course it isn't exhaustive, and any statement that purports a game is
> under or over-spec'd for the "entire" community must also be purely
>speculative, because I don't think such data exists anywhere.

It does, just not to us. Read on...

>> What I'm getting at is, they gather those
>> figures so THEY can sell more games, NOT as an impartial statistical survey.
>> Please don't argue with that - it would be too painful to watch ;-p.
>
>How would lying about what their customers use help them sell more
>games? You've been at the tin-foil again, haven't you...

Valve know their sub's system specs; so do Blizzard. If you think they would
share that commercial gem of a competitive advantage with anyone else,
you're more naive than I gave you credit for ;-p
Knowing your customer base, their needs, capabilities & shortcomings is
still one of the most powerful retention tools companies have at their
disposal. I'm curious: what do you do for a living TSG?

So, the logical conclusion, given the consistently low system specs & high
sub nos on games like WoW & yes, a lot of the Asian mmos, even Runescape
lol, is that system specs are a *very* important factor in the mmo 'race'.
WoW's has hardly changed in 4 years & kept well behind even today's
entry-level PCs, whereas games like CoH/V jumped ahead too soon, it's all
too painfully clear. AoC may be an initial, temporary success, but like
LOTRO, won't be taking significant market share imo (all other things being
equal, which I appreciate they're not entirely in this case - AoC has a
number of other design differences to the likes of WoW that it may succeed
in its own niche of mature, PvP-oriented, higher system spec subs).

>> If 7 out of 10 million WoW players are nuff nuffs, they're still paying nuff
>> nuffs & devs had better listen to THEIR systems specs, NOT the more
>> experienced players' who frequent Steam the likes. That's only if they want
>> to have their next mmo take any market share from WoW of course.
>
>If the point were to steal WoW userbase, then we should see more JRPG's,
>since a majority live in Asia; the US and Europe only make up about 4.5
>million subscribers.

Huh? These Asians ARE playing WoW, ergo they like THAT sort of game more
than their traditional jrpgs. In any case, is there any evidence the
Chinese, Indians, Koreans & any other non-Japanese countries are
particularly predisposed towards anything Japanese? Is Lineage1/2, an anime
style mmorpg what you calla 'jrpg'?

>And furthermore, perhaps developers should focus less on "be like WoW"
>or "emulate WoW" and more on making a creative and original venture that
>is /better/ than WoW. WoW != uber alles MMO. The more interesting study

I never said this, quite the opposite. I despise Blizzard for a number of
reasons & think WoW is a cutesy, shallow & repetitive, if addictive mmorpg.
I'm only claiming that its success has just as much to do with its low
system reqs as it does with the dev's name (among other top reasons). You're
the one discounting this extremely important bit of reality/fact as
irrelevant & pulling out tin-foil arguments/insults to support your flimsy
counter-theories ;-p

>would be what psychological need WoW is fufilling, and then to move in
>on that basis instead.

Bah! Poppycock! Why would WoW's psychological effect be any different to EQ2
or COH or EVE or any other OCD-pandering mmo? You're missing the point of
what (still) sets WoW apart from other mmos right now, rather than focusing
on what makes it the same.

>> To answer your question, you just have to look at how many over-spec'd new
>> games are successes...& how many flop.
>
>First, you have to define "over-spec'd", and you can't because no such
>data exists (see the first bit), therefore the exercise is impossible.

Of course I can. We know what was/is lower, mid, upper end specs in retail
PCs right now & every year gone by for the last 4 years WoW has been a
dominant force in the mmo world. We know the system specs other mmos have
demanded during that period & on the whole, they have been greater than
WoW's, at least for any half-decent mmo with half a chance of competing. So,
the conclusion is almost inevitable, just not quiet sure what you're not
seeing or why you refuse to acknowledge the obvious. Time to save some face
TSG & call this debate for what it is ;-p

>Conversely, you could look at how many under-spec'd new games are
>successes, and how many flop.

If they're aimed at the same market segment as WoW, sure. As I said above,
The Blizzard name & low system reqs are just 2 of a number of primary
factors that make WoW a continued commercial success, bar none. Others I can
see were the initial hype factor & the marketing campaign they've used (it's
a household name now & in the general media ffs!), in spite of the Warcraft
RTS series/franchise being relegated to the geek/nerd computer game playing
world in the past. They've used a solid base of BNet players (albeit many
disgruntled like myself) to create a foundation for a viral marketing
campaign (there's no such thing as bad publicity) the likes of which we've
never seen in the game playing world. There's are no conspiracy theories
here: it's all been fairly self-evident & out in the open all along.

>> And the geniuses keep looking at the
>> successes (e.g. WoW) & not the failures, & even then they learn little from
>> the exercise. QED.
>
>"Go with what works" does sound awfully attractive to the shareholders...

I was clearly talking about learning from other ppl's failures, not
emulating them. Are we still on the same page? Same book? <rolls eyes>

>The point, I think, is that you can analyze a game that does badly all
>you like, but it's very difficult to see those same qualities in your
>own work. For example, you can say that a game failed because of
>unconvincing voice acting, a flat story, clunky controls and a bad
>camera system. However, when you're developing a game, you always think
>the acting is good, the story compelling. Play with any control system
>long enough and you'll be as smooth as butter with it. Camera control is
>no problem for those who can control it properly, etc. etc. etc. By
>these standards, this game should fly off the shelf, and yet someone
>else will find exactly the same faults in the game as the original example.

That's a copout & you know it. Just like all the failed mmos who ignored
others who failed before them. If they stopped to analyse & consolidate what
makes games like WoW such a huge success & others flops, without the
rose-coloured glasses, they'd be on a commercially self-sustaining winner.
Games like LOTRO only survive because of their pedigree; WoW continues to
dominate in spite of having almost *none*!

>> Send me your bank account login details & I'll see what I can do .
>
>Only if your name is OKONKWO and you would like to transfer some of your
>ROYALTIES from the NIGERIA OIL AND GAS CORPORATION.
>
>
>> KEEEEWWWWWLLLLL!!! Mind you, the demo d/l is a whopper (7.18Gb!)
>
> >.>

www.419eater.com ))

>7.18MB, Nos. The full game is only ~55MB on disc.
>
>MB is megabytes. Gb is gigabits.
>
>Nomenclature, she is a cruel mistress.

DOH! And I looked at it twice in the past couple days. I must adjust my
monitor's resolution or me eyesight I think .

--
Nostromo
 >> Stay informed about: Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures breaks all the current s.. 

TheSmokingGnu wrote:
> Blizzard has more *monty*
> that Jesus and the Beatles combined, and the name-dropping power to
> match. Corporate giants like that have no trouble using regular
> run-of-the-mill saturation marketing.

^H^H^H money, too.

TheSmokingGnu
 >> Stay informed about: Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures breaks all the current s.. 

Thus spake Ross Ridge <rridge.DeleteThis@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca>, Fri, 02 May
2008 18:23:16 -0400, Anno Domini:

>Nostromo wrote:
>> Common sense.
>
>TheSmokingGnu writes:
>>That's an opinion, not fact.
>
>Zaghadka <president.DeleteThis@whitehouse.gov> wrote:
>>Gnu, if all we had to rely on were *facts*, life would be very simple. Your
>>idiotic, fact*less* challenge of Nostromo's opinion does not question whether
>>it is a "poor" opinion or a "well-reasoned and excellent" opinion.
>
>No, TheSmokingGnu is correct. The Valve System Survey is in fact
>the best publically available source of information about the sort of
>computers gamers actually have. Compared the sort of speculation you and
>Nostromo are engaging in, deviod of any sort of objective observations,
>TheSmokingGnu's argument is both well-reasoned and excellent.

So you're smoking the same brand he is then Rossco? Cool. Just take a look
at the mmogchart links I posted & tell me again that's not objective
evidence/reasoning. In the real world, money talks, bullshit walks.
Have a nice day ;-p.

--
Nostromo
 >> Stay informed about: Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures breaks all the current s.. 

Nostromo wrote:
> Just take a look
> at the mmogchart links I posted & tell me again that's not objective
> evidence/reasoning. In the real world, money talks, bullshit walks.
> Have a nice day ;-p.
>

What do the charts prove, beyond that fact that WoW is popular? They say
nothing, prove nothing about system specs, therefore your arguments are
invalid and unsound.

TheSmokingGnu
 >> Stay informed about: Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures breaks all the current s.. 

Thus spake Zaghadka <zaghadka DeleteThis @hotmail.com>, Fri, 02 May 2008 20:36:15 GMT,
Anno Domini:

>On Fri, 02 May 2008 18:11:24 GMT, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg, TheSmokingGnu
>wrote:
>
>>Nostromo wrote:
>>> Common sense.
>>
>>That's an opinion, not fact.
>
>Gnu, if all we had to rely on were *facts*, life would be very simple. Your
>idiotic, fact*less* challenge of Nostromo's opinion does not question whether
>it is a "poor" opinion or a "well-reasoned and excellent" opinion.
>
>The well-reasoned and excellent opinions are *more* useful than facts, because
>everybody can get the facts, but not everyone has discernment.
>
>I won't pass judgment on Nostromo's opinion, but I think he's talking more
>sense than you.
>
>It's true, Gnu, opinions are often backed by research. Here's some "facts:"
>
>Steam is a minority software delivery channel flocked to mostly by "hardcore"
>PC gamers. Any customer who bought Half-Life 2 from the retail channel has
>stopped using it by now, and is not showing up in the current round of system
>profiles, because they're done playing.

Hey! That's ME! >8^D

>If Steam was the #1 way to get software, your facts would have more bearing.
>It's not. It's not even close.
>
>If you'd *bothered* to do the research, you'd find out that STEAM users tend
>NOT to be the casual or even *mainstream* crowd, so the sampling is skewed to
>higher specs.

Hey, I didn't even need to do any research to reach THAT conclusion! <G>

>MOST gamers get their games from the RETAIL CHANNEL, and Nostromo just thinks
>you're a god-damned idiot for not realizing this fact, and so do I.
>
>So ultimately, your Steam figures mean precisely dick. You are not exercising
>"common sense" by checking out the retail reports and seeing that most of the
>gaming market is tied up in *Wal-Mart sales*.
>
>I'm not going to do your research for you either. If you don't understand that
>ardent Steam users represent mostly the hardcore customer, a minority market
>segment with *superior* hardware, then you have been smoking for far too long.
>
>There is no easy link here. Just Google "software retail channel sales," FFS.
>
>There are lines around the block at GameStop, dude. Steam is not even on the
>radar. Your "facts" are irrelevent, and new computer sales seem to bear out
>Nostromo's contention that the mainstream user is a more "casual" gamer that
>can't meet beefy system specs.

Well, I'd like to keep this polite (which I know is unusual for me , but I
was only really interested in a mmo's secret to success, based on WoW's huge
sub nos (& other's low ones) & trying to extrapolate some longer-term
potential figures for AoC. To conclude my side of the debate, I'd be very
surprised if AoC surpasses even the 150K that LOTRO has settled into:

http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html
compare with the ridiculous climb of WoW's:
http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart1.html

Why does WoW have 10million subs & LOTRO only 150K when LOTRO is superior in
most technical/storyline/roleplaying ways?

The Conan franchise is not nearly as prevalent as the LOTR one & once the
hype wears off & the high system specs for AoC settle in, I think AoC may be
lucky to keep a quarter mill die-hard graphics whore fans in the first year.
Never underestimate the sheep syndrome of course - they may double their
figures just from the "the graphics are fully sick man!" crowd, half of
which won't be able to even get 50% of the max graphics levels on their
sub-par rigs lol! The one thing Funcom does appear to have learnt from Blizz
is that _hype_ is everything pre-launch for a mmo. We may not pay too much
attention to it in this group, but there's probably an average IQ of well
over 100 here & an even higher cynicism quotient (if you could measure such
a thing ! Not to mention there's like 100 regs tops here he, he, so hardly
relevant to any mmo dev, more's the pity *sigh*.

Hang on TSG, didn't you used to be "TheSmoking*GURU*"??? :-/

--
Nostromo
 >> Stay informed about: Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures breaks all the current s.. 

Thus spake Xocyll <Xocyll.RemoveThis@kingston.net>, Fri, 02 May 2008 08:35:49 -0400,
Anno Domini:

>>> Yeah I finally moved.
>>
>>Just to get DSL? That's the spirit! I know I would
>
>Not really. Moved and where I moved to could get it so I got it.

Still in that nice sleepy hollow seaside town? (well it's no secret given
your domain I guess .

>I tried plant/thorns briefly, but the same thing that bugged me about
>spines bugs me about /thorns, the spins sticking out everywhere and
>moreover the fact that you had to spike up the thorns before the ranged
>attacks could be used. Even if there is no actual redraw lag it was
>annoying, not to mention would look horrible with wings.

Heh, at 6th I haven't really used too many secondary powers, but I don't
have any issues with the animations. Horses for courses
You sure there aren't some cool insecty wings available that would suit a
P/T dom?

>>> Also logged on my mind/kin controller Synapticide (Liberty) for a bit
>>> and finally leveled it to 20.
>>
>>Cool. I've got a 6th mind/empathy controller "MYOB" parked as well who
>>was a bit of fun way back when (who's bloody name has been pinched by
>>some other asshat - that's the 2nd char now grrrrr!!!).
>
>Some "other" asshat? Watch what you're calling yourself.

He, he - the *first* asshat pinched my fire/dev blaster's name on another
server "Umbral Fury", which I was rather proud of. Was going to rename to
"Umbral Fury the real one", but I settled on just "UmbralFury"

>>> Been bouncing around between servers a lot lately playing older
>>> characters that I abandoned at some previous point.
>>
>>Hopefully they will make the game server-independent at some stage, as
>>they keep hinting.
>
>That would be bad since many of my characters share names, they're just
>on different servers.

Oh, didn't think of that, though I suspect we'll get free server moves &
char renames before they dispense with the physical server topology (like
EVE kinda does). I doubt one 'server' could handle 150K players as it stands
anyway.

>>> For a brief while I tried playing my highest villain up to get it to 50
>>> before the new villain ATs go in, but found I really wasn't having any
>>> fun doing it so that stopped rather quickly.
>>
>>Try a stalker...really.
>
>Did briefly, but didn't care for it much.

Surprising. It's almost perfect for soloing, albeit slower than some other
ATs. What exactly didn't you like? What primary/secondary did you try btw?

>The not fun bit was that my ss/elec brute was kicking ass up to level 40
>at max difficulty and then went from being super to being gimped.
>Even on minimum difficulty the aracnoids were shredding me.

Dang. What Issue fubared things up?

>Nothing stops the fun like super overpowered enemies that swarm you.

Heh, too true. Though death is only a couple levels of revenge away!

--
Nostromo
 >> Stay informed about: Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures breaks all the current s.. 

Thus spake Nostromo <nospam.RemoveThis@forme.org>, Sat, 03 May 2008 11:45:47 +1000,
Anno Domini:

>>>Cool. I've got a 6th mind/empathy controller "MYOB" parked as well who
>>>was a bit of fun way back when (who's bloody name has been pinched by
>>>some other asshat - that's the 2nd char now grrrrr!!!).
>>
>>Some "other" asshat? Watch what you're calling yourself.
>
>He, he - the *first* asshat pinched my fire/dev blaster's name on another
>server "Umbral Fury", which I was rather proud of. Was going to rename to
>"Umbral Fury the real one", but I settled on just "UmbralFury"

Btw, I think I may have come across a char rename loophole. If you leave the
little modal window popped up on a char that has been forced to rename &
exit, the next character you log into still has that window popped up &
forces you to re-enter a new name on the _current_ character (works for same
server only I imagine). Soooo, keep at least one expired char for a free
rename for a current one - just don't go into it until you're ready to
rename as the dialogue box will remain up & it can't be moved. I was forced
to just rename my current main to the same name, so I'm not 100% certain if
this works, but I have at least 2 more expired charnames on Virtue, so will
test with a new throwaway char/name soon.

--
Nostromo
 >> Stay informed about: Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures breaks all the current s.. 

Nostromo <nospam.TakeThisOut@forme.org> looked up from reading the entrails of the
porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>Thus spake Xocyll <Xocyll.TakeThisOut@kingston.net>, Fri, 02 May 2008 08:35:49 -0400,
>Anno Domini:
>
>>>> Yeah I finally moved.
>>>
>>>Just to get DSL? That's the spirit! I know I would
>>
>>Not really. Moved and where I moved to could get it so I got it.
>
>Still in that nice sleepy hollow seaside town? (well it's no secret given
>your domain I guess .

Seaside? A few hundred miles from any sea (or do the Great Lakes count
as Seas to an Aussie?)

>>I tried plant/thorns briefly, but the same thing that bugged me about
>>spines bugs me about /thorns, the spins sticking out everywhere and
>>moreover the fact that you had to spike up the thorns before the ranged
>>attacks could be used. Even if there is no actual redraw lag it was
>>annoying, not to mention would look horrible with wings.
>
>Heh, at 6th I haven't really used too many secondary powers, but I don't
>have any issues with the animations. Horses for courses
>You sure there aren't some cool insecty wings available that would suit a
>P/T dom?

There are insect style wings (you can see all of them at
http://cityofheroes.wikia.com/wiki/Invention_Made_Costumes), but the
spikes stick out all over and stick through wings/capes badly and look
horrible.
I'm a bit of a perfectionist and won't even use hairstyles that clip
capes/wings, so having powers that stick a dozen spikes through are just
right out.

>>>> Also logged on my mind/kin controller Synapticide (Liberty) for a bit
>>>> and finally leveled it to 20.
>>>
>>>Cool. I've got a 6th mind/empathy controller "MYOB" parked as well who
>>>was a bit of fun way back when (who's bloody name has been pinched by
>>>some other asshat - that's the 2nd char now grrrrr!!!).
>>
>>Some "other" asshat? Watch what you're calling yourself.
>
>He, he - the *first* asshat pinched my fire/dev blaster's name on another
>server "Umbral Fury", which I was rather proud of. Was going to rename to
>"Umbral Fury the real one", but I settled on just "UmbralFury"

Ahh.
The only time I ran into that was when I went to use Bonnie Bedlam on
the test server and someone had snagged it.
A minute or so of thought and using the "stargazer" mask, and "Sylvie
Stargazer" was used instead.

>>>> Been bouncing around between servers a lot lately playing older
>>>> characters that I abandoned at some previous point.
>>>
>>>Hopefully they will make the game server-independent at some stage, as
>>>they keep hinting.
>>
>>That would be bad since many of my characters share names, they're just
>>on different servers.
>
>Oh, didn't think of that, though I suspect we'll get free server moves &
>char renames before they dispense with the physical server topology (like
>EVE kinda does). I doubt one 'server' could handle 150K players as it stands
>anyway.

The above mentioned name "Bonnie Bedlam", I have I think about 6
different characters using that name - one a ma/reg from the first month
of the game that hasn't been touched since.

Ditto my plant/psi dominator and rad/rad defender are both "Fiona
Ferrishyn" with the same look and similar backstories.

I tend to do a lot of "variations on a theme" when I have a look or
theme I like but find myself not liking the build as much.

>>>> For a brief while I tried playing my highest villain up to get it to 50
>>>> before the new villain ATs go in, but found I really wasn't having any
>>>> fun doing it so that stopped rather quickly.
>>>
>>>Try a stalker...really.
>>
>>Did briefly, but didn't care for it much.
>
>Surprising. It's almost perfect for soloing, albeit slower than some other
>ATs. What exactly didn't you like? What primary/secondary did you try btw?

A ma/reg and a cople others. The loss of regen's quick recovery made
it feel wrong.

>>The not fun bit was that my ss/elec brute was kicking ass up to level 40
>>at max difficulty and then went from being super to being gimped.
>>Even on minimum difficulty the aracnoids were shredding me.
>
>Dang. What Issue fubared things up?

Wasn't an issue, it's the critters. Under 40 you're in St Martial,
after 40 you're in the last zone and you are suddenly faced with enemies
that are hideously overpowered; the arachnoids I mentioned before, that
hit very fast, very hard and also seem to call out so every other one
within 200 meters comes running to help and you get swarmed.

>>Nothing stops the fun like super overpowered enemies that swarm you.
>
>Heh, too true. Though death is only a couple levels of revenge away!

Not with those things, they hit like they're 6 levels higher than you,
when they're a level lower than you.

Like a Rikti Chief Soldier that's suddenly attacking 5-6 times as fast
as normal.

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
 >> Stay informed about: Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures breaks all the current s.. 

Ross Ridge wrote:
>No, TheSmokingGnu is correct. The Valve System Survey is in fact
>the best publically available source of information about the sort of
>computers gamers actually have. Compared the sort of speculation you and
>Nostromo are engaging in, deviod of any sort of objective observations,
>TheSmokingGnu's argument is both well-reasoned and excellent.

Zaghadka <president DeleteThis @whitehouse.gov> wrote:
>I will disagree with you there. Following market data over the past 3 years or
>so, I'd propose that Valve's data is a "biased sample."

It's not perfect, but Valve's survey by far the best available data on
the subject. A biased sample is far better than biased speculation.

Ross Ridge

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge DeleteThis @csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/
db //
 >> Stay informed about: Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures breaks all the current s.. 

Ross Ridge wrote:
> Ross Ridge wrote:
>
>> No, TheSmokingGnu is correct. The Valve System Survey is in fact
>> the best publically available source of information about the sort of
>> computers gamers actually have. Compared the sort of speculation you and
>> Nostromo are engaging in, deviod of any sort of objective observations,
>> TheSmokingGnu's argument is both well-reasoned and excellent.
>>
>
> Zaghadka <president.RemoveThis@whitehouse.gov> wrote:
>
>> I will disagree with you there. Following market data over the past 3 years or
>> so, I'd propose that Valve's data is a "biased sample."
>>
>
> It's not perfect, but Valve's survey by far the best available data on
> the subject. A biased sample is far better than biased speculation.
>

Oh, you're right... So let's incorporate this philosophy into another
industry... I know! Let's have all of the auto makers just look at the
customers that are construction workers and contractors who use their
vehicles for work. So, based on this biased (but fully valid in your
opinion) survey the auto makers have determined that they should really
concentrate on making light and heavy duty pickup trucks from now on.
Seriously, what could go wrong? The survey data never lies.

ANY argument that can use the word "biased" in it and still argue that
it is any sort of valid representation of a general population..... Ah,
you know what? It's pointless, you obviously have your mind made up,
and no amount of common sense or logic will ever convince you otherwise...

CoinSpin
 >> Stay informed about: Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures breaks all the current s..