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Rebel Native Dust Off

 
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Lord Lancelot

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Since: Apr 16, 2007
Posts: 165



(Msg. 16) Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Rebel Native Dust Off [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>games>vgaplanets4 (more info?)

On Mar 28, 3:09 pm, Sebastian <Sebast....DeleteThis@nospam.nospam> wrote:
> > the first way is a low tech moderate speed long range lightly armored
> > hull with fast hyperdrive that can be produced in abundance in the
> > early turns.
>
> You cannot do that. You will run out of fuel very fast. If you early
> build 10 Falcons and don't have warhops on them you need at least 400
> fuel per turn to hyp jump with all of them. Try that for 10 turn in a
> row if you don't have a great source of fuel.
>
> Sebastian

Also a falcon will cost at least 1400$ each, that is a lot early game,
you will not build many.
Also building a lot of falcon and no real warship, and not spending
money on the tech tree, will leave you open to an early attack, of an
agressive neighboor, : Solorian, Robot, Fed, Xstal to name a few, and
you could die to a descent EE turn 10 attack.

Lord Lancelot

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protomatter

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Since: Apr 27, 2007
Posts: 119



(Msg. 17) Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Rebel Native Dust Off [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Mar 29, 7:11 pm, Lord Lancelot <polan... RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 28, 3:09 pm, Sebastian <Sebast... RemoveThis @nospam.nospam> wrote:
>
> Also a falcon will cost at least 1400$ each, that is a lot early game,
> you will not build many.
> Also building a lot of falcon and no real warship, and not spending
> money on the tech tree, will leave you open to an early attack, of an
> agressive neighboor, : Solorian, Robot, Fed, Xstal to name a few, and
> you could die to a descent EE turn 10 attack.
>
> Lord Lancelot

oddlly enough the rebels somehow manage to do just that and grabbing
up the natives is how they generate theyre cash, so it basically pays
for itself. despite the 400 credits

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Sebastian

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Since: Mar 21, 2007
Posts: 106



(Msg. 18) Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Rebel Native Dust Off [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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>> Also a falcon will cost at least 1400$ each, that is a lot early game,
>> you will not build many.
>> Also building a lot of falcon and no real warship, and not spending
>> money on the tech tree, will leave you open to an early attack, of an
>> agressive neighboor, : Solorian, Robot, Fed, Xstal to name a few, and
>> you could die to a descent EE turn 10 attack.

> oddlly enough the rebels somehow manage to do just that and grabbing
> up the natives is how they generate theyre cash, so it basically pays
> for itself. despite the 400 credits

I think you should play the rebels if they do that good. I think you
don't really know about what you are talking. You might notice that it
is nor easy to produce more than 5 falcons and produce enough fighters
to stand an early attack. You will also notice that it is rather fuel
expensive to gather natives. Of cause this depends on the setup and I
assumed a 1 mio starting colos and some natives setup but the more the
better.

In my last rebels game I burned approx 1000 fuel per turn and had the
luck of scum to kill to get fuel and money early on. Otherwise there
would have been serious problems.

Sebastian
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Lord Owl

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Since: Apr 17, 2007
Posts: 33



(Msg. 19) Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:21 am
Post subject: Re: Rebel Native Dust Off [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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> I think you should play the rebels if they do that good. [...] Of cause this depends on the setup and I
> assumed a 1 mio starting colos and some natives setup but the more the
> better.

Actually, I believe the main reason many games are set to 'some'
natives now (the lowest setting) is the fact, that with higher
settings the Rebels are too strong. Weakening the Rebel native
gathering power (or weakening natives in general) would see more games
at normal natives levels again.
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Lord Lancelot

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Since: Apr 16, 2007
Posts: 165



(Msg. 20) Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:09 am
Post subject: Re: Rebel Native Dust Off [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Mar 31, 6:21 am, Lord Owl <lord.....TakeThisOut@gmx.de> wrote:
> > I think you should play the rebels if they do that good. [...] Of cause this depends on the setup and I
> > assumed a 1 mio starting colos and some natives setup but the more the
> > better.
>
> Actually, I believe the main reason many games are set to 'some'
> natives now (the lowest setting) is the fact, that with higher
> settings the Rebels are too strong. Weakening the Rebel native
> gathering power (or weakening natives in general) would see more games
> at normal natives levels again.

Rebel, Priv, Robot, Borg all benefit a lot from more natives in a
setup.
And close runner up, Solorian, EE (Amphibian).

But yes Natives dust off could be reduced to 50K pod instead of 400k.
To compensate a bit, the Rebel should have a HYP fuel reduction when
jumping a Rebel crewed Falcon.
The code is already in the host for the Mivorari 10% hyp fuel cost,
the falcon could use this.
Or a 25% fuel cost.

Lord Lancelot
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Black No.1

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Since: Jun 02, 2007
Posts: 159



(Msg. 21) Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Rebel Native Dust Off [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Lord Lancelot" <polandor RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in
news:231980b1-1af7-47c6-aeff-a3cde497fa34@b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...

> Rebel, Priv, Robot, Borg all benefit a lot from more natives in a
> setup.
> And close runner up, Solorian, EE (Amphibian).
>
> But yes Natives dust off could be reduced to 50K pod instead of 400k.
> To compensate a bit, the Rebel should have a HYP fuel reduction when
> jumping a Rebel crewed Falcon.
> The code is already in the host for the Mivorari 10% hyp fuel cost,
> the falcon could use this.
> Or a 25% fuel cost.

No, please no cap on native gathering - this would primarily affect rebs and
priv - and they need natives...

I'd rather reduce the gains from natives like suggested by Lord Owl. Imho the
most problematic natives are
Amphibians with their ability to produce LTLAs - If they would be toned down,
this would help alot...

An idea:

Let's have Amphibians only produce large weapons up to the lw tech that you have
researched...

Btw. this would help in toning down the "dreaded" Scavs, too Wink

Cheers,
Jochen
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Phaidros

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Since: May 16, 2007
Posts: 109



(Msg. 22) Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:42 am
Post subject: Re: Rebel Native Dust Off [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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> > But yes Natives dust off could be reduced to 50K pod instead of 400k.
> > To compensate a bit, the Rebel should have a HYP fuel reduction when
> > jumping a Rebel crewed Falcon.
> > The code is already in the host for the Mivorari 10% hyp fuel cost,
> > the falcon could use this.
> > Or a 25% fuel cost.
>
> No, please no cap on native gathering - this would primarily affect rebs and
> priv - and they need natives...
>
> I'd rather reduce the gains from natives like suggested by Lord Owl. Imho the
> most problematic natives are
> Amphibians with their ability to produce LTLAs - If they would be toned down,
> this would help alot...
>
> An idea:
>
> Let's have Amphibians only produce large weapons up to the lw tech that you have
> researched...
>
> Btw. this would help in toning down the "dreaded" Scavs, too Wink
>
> Cheers,
> Jochen

The overall outcome for Privs and Rebels should be same if there are
more natives available with the normal setting while their gathering
rate is reduced somewhat. Making the use of natives uninteresting for
all is not the way to go.

Phaidros
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protomatter

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Since: Apr 27, 2007
Posts: 119



(Msg. 23) Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Rebel Native Dust Off [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

> No, please no cap on native gathering - this would primarily affect rebs and
> priv - and they need natives...
>
> I'd rather reduce the gains from natives like suggested by Lord Owl. Imho the
> most problematic natives are
> Amphibians with their ability to produce LTLAs - If they would be toned down,
> this would help alot...
>
> An idea:
>
> Let's have Amphibians only produce large weapons up to the lw tech that you have
> researched...


as an alternative to dustoff device cap, and elomination of the
dustoff device.

why not increase the number of planets that native would inhabit, but
reduce the amount found on planets.

example: lets say a game places 10 million natives over 20% of the
planets. instead of using that factor. lets spread them out even
further. keep the 10 million natives that it normally places but use
60% of the planets, this will do two things.

1) still give the rebs and privs the use of thier device, and allow
for others to actually have a chance of finding some.

2) this will effectiviely reduce the number of a given native type
found per planet. theres been a number of times ive found natives of a
given type on just a handful of planets and the amount found being in
the amount of 250,000+ in some cases only 100,000 are needed to get
thier perk. basically allowing a single planet to give the perk 2.5
times for the race that recieves them.

in summary if i find natives i dont think the number found should be
anywhere near that high (250,000+). and when found should not be
enough to gain that much of advantage by itself. forcing the races to
find more and more of the natives on various different planets. with
large numbers of planets having natives on them, and the amount found
reduced, this would encourage PSP production and better native
management for the few they have in order to get them to breed to an
amount beneficial for thier perk.

sure some planets would have higher amounts of natives in comparison
to others but, lets not go into instant perk for 1 dustoff/collection
planet. lets drive to make them more avialable but way fewer when
found.

as an example when selecting natives when the master is run:

some = 100-10,000 over 30-40% of the planets
average = 5,000,15,000 over 35-45-% of the planets
above average 8,000-20,000 over 40-50% of the planets
abundant - 10,000-20,000 over 45-55% of the planets
extrra abundant - 16,,000-25,000 over 50-60% of the planets

( this is only an example and the values can change to some extent if
implemented, as long as there is higher spread with a lesser
population than what we use now with the current master. with higher
spreads in natives the rebs might be willing to play even in games
with lower amounts of natives as they would be able to still collect a
large amount of what is there.)

the current master settings have a smaller chance of populating
planets with natives but have fewer planets that are populated. and
when they are populated, its typically with a high end amount more
often than a moderate to small amount.

Current master settings are:
Natives: Some
0.25 native populations per planet?
66% Small populations, ranging from 0 to 10,000
33% Large populations, ranging from 10,000 to 100,000
Approx. 20% chance of a planet having at least one native population
Approx. 8% chance of a planet having at least one large native
population

Natives: Average
0.33 native populations per planet
40% Small populations, ranging from 0 to 10,000
60% Large populations, ranging from 10,000 to 200,000
Approx. 30% chance of a planet having at least one native population
Approx. 18% chance of a planet having at least one large native
population

Natives: Abundant
0.33 native populations per planet
40% Small populations, ranging from 0 to 10,000
60% Large populations, ranging from 10,000 to 350,000
Approx. 30% chance of a planet having at least one native population
Approx. 18% chance of a planet having at least one large native
population


Proto
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Mutu

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Since: Dec 17, 2007
Posts: 7



(Msg. 24) Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:39 am
Post subject: Re: Rebel Native Dust Off [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Personally I think reducing the production of natives is the best idea
on this thread.

Reduce the amount or quality that Ghips and Amphs make... or just
change them all together to reduce production cost...

But really, they should not be making such a big difference in the
game that some natives (Avians) are near worthless, but som (Ghips and
Amphibians) are so contested as to be deemed "needed" by races.
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Lord Lancelot

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Since: Apr 16, 2007
Posts: 165



(Msg. 25) Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:45 am
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On Apr 2, 10:39 am, Mutu <M... DeleteThis @softhome.net> wrote:
> Personally I think reducing the production of natives is the best idea
> on this thread.
>
> Reduce the amount or quality that Ghips and Amphs make... or just
> change them all together to reduce production cost...
>
> But really, they should not be making such a big difference in the
> game that some natives (Avians) are near worthless, but som (Ghips and
> Amphibians) are so contested as to be deemed "needed" by races.

Rebel Economy really need the free parts.

Lord Lancelot
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Lord Lancelot

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Since: Apr 16, 2007
Posts: 165



(Msg. 26) Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Rebel Native Dust Off [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Apr 2, 12:37 pm, KlingonKommand <P... RemoveThis @nurk.fnord> wrote:
> >Rebel Economy really need the free parts.
>
> So do the other economies, especially the races with a lower growth than
> the rich, rich, rich Rebels who have a 46 degree farming range, free
> money from cantinas, attract natives from nearby enemy bases, and
> relatively cheap hulls.
>
> I've always viewed the Rebels as being a beginner's race. Too easy to
> play and win with, no outstanding weaknesses, no missing structures
> except terraformers, fighters which can travel 400LY! and cost as little
> as 20mc.
> --
> KlingonKommand

Well Paul you havent play the Rebel lately I have played them 2 tiimes
in 2 long games.

First the rebel cantina are a joke, they are not worth building (now
in the past they where making load of cash now they make nothing) and
can not be computed a increase of money.

Rebel can only atttract natives from eneny base if they have a psp,
and if they leave it ON.

Rebel have a normal low growth rate, and make money only from cities /
undercities and their low taxes (ultra).

Rebel have plenty of flaw in their ship list, slow 20ly warp, no hull
to build PTT ships, beside the costly Rush.

The only money perk they have is the save money from the free part the
make with the natives the gather.

When I play Solorian / Priv / EE (with prisoners)
I will have a much stronger economy than the poor rebel, + I will have
a lot of natives building me free parts on top of that.

The only thing Rebel have is above normal strengh starting ships (many
race also have strong starting ships: COM / Scav / Robot / RCS / DRAC
to name a few).
And their good fighter, but even with 20mc fighter, and their normal
low money economy they can not have that many fighters, free flying
fighter are prone to laser mine and other things, like let say the
nemesis torpedo on a starting Drac ships.

Lord Lancelot
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Mutu

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Since: Dec 17, 2007
Posts: 7



(Msg. 27) Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:14 pm
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> Well Paul you havent play the Rebel lately I have played them 2 tiimes
> in 2 long games.
>
> First the rebel cantina are a joke, they are not worth building (now
> in the past they where making load of cash now they make nothing) and
> can not be computed a increase of money.

Cantina costs a rebel 10 MCs and 1 supply. if they get 3 contraband
worth 4 MCs they already came out ahead. Plus the wiki states cantinas
can provide a happiness boost. Seems like a good deal for 11 MCs (1
supply costs 1 MC, unless you pick it up off the planet in which case
it is free).

> Rebel can only atttract natives from eneny base if they have a psp,
> and if they leave it ON.

But they make OTHER races natives unhappy, which guarantees they can
get the natives... so the idea that they can steal other peoples
natives is still valid.

> Rebel have a normal low growth rate, and make money only from cities /
> undercities and their low taxes (ultra).

So rebels are normal here. Okay. So we have 2 bonuses, and 1 normal so
far.

> Rebel have plenty of flaw in their ship list, slow 20ly warp,  no hull
> to build PTT ships, beside the costly Rush.

So the fighter race cannot use PTT well big deal. And they exchange
warp for hyp.. which is cheaper to make and cheaper to research and
goes faster but is limited in other aspects. Sounds like a "normal" to
me, not a weakness.

> The only money perk they have is the save money from the free part the
> make with the natives the gather.
>
> When I play Solorian / Priv / EE (with prisoners)
> I will have a much stronger economy than the poor rebel, + I will have
> a lot of natives building me free parts on top of that.

So your argument is that the rebels are weak because you can play
another race (and in my opinion the Solorian are over powered so the
compairons does not help your case) you can do some stuff better?

> The only thing Rebel have is above normal strengh starting ships (many
> race also have strong starting ships: COM / Scav / Robot / RCS / DRAC
> to name a few).
> And their good fighter, but even with 20mc fighter, and their normal
> low money economy they can not have that many fighters, free flying
> fighter are prone to laser mine and other things, like let say the
> nemesis torpedo on a starting Drac ships.

So their fighters are prone to laser mines. Which other than web mines
is the least propagated mine type in the game.

Sorry, I agree with Doc the Rebels are a beginner race. Easy to play
with little to no "quirks" or tricks needed to make them excel. Not a
bad race, but I do think they are over powered given the native
hoovering. Plus the hoovering does not seem to fit the "we want to
defend natives" mentality. Seems more like the forced marching the US
did of the Natives who lived here when they showed up. And I think
most people agree that is was a "bad thing" not a "good empire" sort
of thing (though this is way off topic).

I still think the best thing would be for Ghips and Amps and maybe
even humanoids, to give you a % off whatever you make rather than free
stuff.
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KlingonKommand

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Since: May 29, 2004
Posts: 451



(Msg. 28) Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:37 pm
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>Rebel Economy really need the free parts.

So do the other economies, especially the races with a lower growth than
the rich, rich, rich Rebels who have a 46 degree farming range, free
money from cantinas, attract natives from nearby enemy bases, and
relatively cheap hulls.

I've always viewed the Rebels as being a beginner's race. Too easy to
play and win with, no outstanding weaknesses, no missing structures
except terraformers, fighters which can travel 400LY! and cost as little
as 20mc.
--
KlingonKommand
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