RPG Report & Planescape: Torment

On Apr 23, 10:23 am, Gerry Quinn <ger....DeleteThis@indigo.ie> wrote:
> In article <7cfe0897-6195-4731-8a76-
> ef1198983....DeleteThis@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, allan_c_cybuls....DeleteThis@yahoo.ca
> says...
>
>
>
> > On Apr 20, 8:39 am, Gerry Quinn <ger....DeleteThis@indigo.ie> wrote:
> > > > > He can. The whole point is that someone with average reflexes CAN
> > > > > become a master swordsman. He won't be the very best swordsman in the
> > > > > game, but he will be a very good one.
>
> > > > You flat-out said above that people can easily be jacks of all trades
> > > > but not masters, implying that people with average reflexes would not
> > > > apply.
>
> > > What I meant was that people with average reflexes would be able to be
> > > jacks of all trades, or masters of few. Everyone could quickly learn
> > > the basics of swordplay, but would not be very good at it. (Admittedly
> > > there would be some players who could learn a lot of things different
> > > fast.)
>
> > Which is precisely the problem: if I have average reflexes, I can only
> > play a jack of all trades character. What if I didn't WANT to play
> > such a character?
>
> You're misunderstanding me. I'm saying that becoming a decent swordsman
> would be easy enough that just about anyone could do it with a bit of
> effort.
>
> > > They still matter - you need skills to play any game, and these skills
> > > are not intrinsically different for a warrior and a mage - both amount
> > > to pushing the correct button at the correct time. So why build in a
> > > whole panoply of statistics to support your choice of whether to be a
> > > warrior or a mage?
>
> > Because those statistics reflect the abilities that are required to BE
> > a character of that type in the world. The stats mean that your
> > character can act like a character would in that world without you
> > having to have those stats yourself.
>
> I'm not sure they do, really. Sure, the mage has a button that says
> "fireball" and the warrior has a button that says "shield block", and
> the times they press them are different. But that would apply in my
> model too.
>
> > > And as I said... it's a limitation in *every* game! I'm not talking
> > > about making a 'twitch' game - don't mistake boolworm's gibbering for
> > > anything I've said!
>
> > You are making the limitation more meaningful, by relying on it to
> > separate the best from the average instead of relying on the character
> > build to do that. You seemed to think that the limitation wasn't that
> > big a deal but it certainly becomes a bigger deal under your system --
> > since, by design, it's meaningful -- and it may be a bigger deal for
> > others than it is for you.
>
> The best are separated from the average by skill in all modern MMORPGs.
> I don't want to increase that separation much, and it's true that stats
> are a good way to reduce it, or arguably to make being good at stat
> selection" a way to be the best. Similarly gear-based attributes make
> putting in the hours, or efficient gear choices, or being a ninja, or
> buying gold, ways to be the best.
>
> There's an attitude I sense here that any arbitrary way of being the
> best is acceptable, except one that depends on how well you actually
> play the game. Maybe it is because that is inevitably there anyway, I
> suppose... I don;t want it to take over, I just think there's nothing
> wrong with looking at alternatives even if they strengthen it.
>
>
>
> > > > > Um... isn't "the chosen abilities and how they are employed" pretty much
> > > > > a description of what I am proposing? Except that I focus on how they
> > > > > are employed, not in grinding out levels of or bonuses to each skill, as
> > > > > in CoX. You want to be a swordsman? Then grab a sword and master the
> > > > > moves and strategies involved. It will be easy enough that anyone can
> > > > > learn to do it well, hard enough that the best will have an edge. But
> > > > > you have no way of knowing whether you'd be better at playing a
> > > > > swordsman or a mage depending on your real life intelligence or
> > > > > dexterity. Both involve pushing buttons and moving the mouse and paying
> > > > > attention to what's happening.
>
> > > > Yes, but mage in most worlds is far less dexterity dependent than a
> > > > fighter, because their role relies on knowing lots and lots of things
> > > > and spells and then casting the right spell with uber force to kill
> > > > things. Fighters tend to go for faster attacks. Depends on the class
> > > > and the design, of course, but if we eliminate stats from the
> > > > characters then it seems that playstyle should still conform to those
> > > > stereotypes -- or else, the playstyle is nothing like what the
> > > > character should be, which is bad -- and that means that what I said
> > > > would likely happen.
>
> > > Have you tried World of Warcraft? It's not like that at all.
>
> > Yes, and that's what I didn't like about it [grin]
>
> > All the
> > > classes have pretty much equally complex skill sets and options. The
> > > mage is actually one of the simpler ones. If there's a speed difference
> > > between classes, it's very small - at most the difference between a 1.0s
> > > tick and a 1.5s tick.
>
> > Note that my point was that once you bring player ability into the
> > picture as a big factor either you have a playstyle unrelated to a
> > character -- ie mages need player dexterity instead of intelligence,
> > which they aren't supposed to need in the world -- or you start making
> > the player requirements for the class match those of the class itself,
> > making it so that people are choosing classes based on their own
> > ability.
>
> The typical RPG model makes no sense, actually - mages wear cloth armour
> precisely because it is dexterity that they need to rapidly make
> complicated gestures! Somebody in plate armour carrying a huge
> broadsword will be moving slowly and infrequently.
>
> But I would be keeping the WoW-style model, in which no class requires
> more player dexterity than another, in general.
>
That's the point, the 'mage' needs dexterity... not the player playing
the mage. The ideal RPG would be one in which the clumsiest player can
play the most dexterous rogue in the world.

>
> > > How about if swords were like Tetris, but maces were like an FPS? If
> > > you wanted to play a warrior, you could choose weapons to suit your
> > > skills. Or perhaps you could even decide which way you wanted to
> > > implement combat on any weapon. You could reserve the Tetris for your
> > > favourite weapon, and put FPS on a weapon you didn't care to use much.
> > > PvP would be tricky to implement, though...
>
> > > Well, there's my game-design idea of the day! I'd certainly try a game
> > > like that
>
> > I won't say that that sort of game is bad. I wouldn't play it, but I
> > can see why someone might enjoy it. However, this sort of system is
> > NOT improving roleplaying, and still limits the characters I can
> > create. If I'm bad at Tetris, I can't use swords. If I'm not good at
> > FPS, I can't use maces. Or I have to find a combat system that works
> > for my abilities and assign it to my favorite weapon. And note that
> > the Tetris "mini-game" is completely unrelated to combat, which breaks
> > immersion. Wasn't it Morrowind that was criticized for this with its
> > lock-picking and diplomacy mini-games?
>
> What was wrong with the lock-picking... it featured a lock! Back when
> Wizardry 5 used to do the exact same thing, everybody raved about how
> great it was.
I'm not too fond of mini-games representing in-game actions. Again,
it's mixing the player's abilities with those of the characters'. I'm
ok with minigames that are actually being played by the characters
(like card/board games, etc) though.
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Kendrick Kerwin Chua <kendrick DeleteThis @nospam.io> wrote:
>Localization doesn't have to be cheap, but you're right that it's
>frequently done with an eye towards the bottom line. But if you leave out
>all the spoken dialogue and half of the minigames and never bother with
>the two expansion disks, then you can certainly do it inexpensively. The
>only risk is the wrath of Internet complainers.

Localization is always relatively cheap. The cost hiring the best
translators and voice actors, as well as couple of programers to work
on localizing a game for a few months is a tiny fraction of the cost
developing the game in the first place.

Ross Ridge

--
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[oo][oo] rridge DeleteThis @csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/
db //
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Ross Ridge wrote:
> Yah. I cringe when I see some reviewer complain about the lack of voice
> acting in a game and complain about having to read too much text.

Nostromo <nostromo.TakeThisOut@nospam.org> wrote:
>That's because they're under 25 & have adapted to listen faster than
>they can think. Just imagine what their reading skills are like.

Unfortunately, In most cases when I hear a reviewer complain about there
too much text to read, I know they're a fair bit older than that.

Ross Ridge

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge.TakeThisOut@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/
db //
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In article <7cfe0897-6195-4731-8a76-
ef119898320c.RemoveThis@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, allan_c_cybulskie.RemoveThis@yahoo.ca
says...
> On Apr 20, 8:39 am, Gerry Quinn <ger....RemoveThis@indigo.ie> wrote:

> > > > He can. The whole point is that someone with average reflexes CAN
> > > > become a master swordsman. He won't be the very best swordsman in the
> > > > game, but he will be a very good one.
> >
> > > You flat-out said above that people can easily be jacks of all trades
> > > but not masters, implying that people with average reflexes would not
> > > apply.
> >
> > What I meant was that people with average reflexes would be able to be
> > jacks of all trades, or masters of few. Everyone could quickly learn
> > the basics of swordplay, but would not be very good at it. (Admittedly
> > there would be some players who could learn a lot of things different
> > fast.)
>
> Which is precisely the problem: if I have average reflexes, I can only
> play a jack of all trades character. What if I didn't WANT to play
> such a character?

You're misunderstanding me. I'm saying that becoming a decent swordsman
would be easy enough that just about anyone could do it with a bit of
effort.

> > They still matter - you need skills to play any game, and these skills
> > are not intrinsically different for a warrior and a mage - both amount
> > to pushing the correct button at the correct time. So why build in a
> > whole panoply of statistics to support your choice of whether to be a
> > warrior or a mage?
>
> Because those statistics reflect the abilities that are required to BE
> a character of that type in the world. The stats mean that your
> character can act like a character would in that world without you
> having to have those stats yourself.

I'm not sure they do, really. Sure, the mage has a button that says
"fireball" and the warrior has a button that says "shield block", and
the times they press them are different. But that would apply in my
model too.

> > And as I said... it's a limitation in *every* game! I'm not talking
> > about making a 'twitch' game - don't mistake boolworm's gibbering for
> > anything I've said!
>
> You are making the limitation more meaningful, by relying on it to
> separate the best from the average instead of relying on the character
> build to do that. You seemed to think that the limitation wasn't that
> big a deal but it certainly becomes a bigger deal under your system --
> since, by design, it's meaningful -- and it may be a bigger deal for
> others than it is for you.

The best are separated from the average by skill in all modern MMORPGs.
I don't want to increase that separation much, and it's true that stats
are a good way to reduce it, or arguably to make being good at stat
selection" a way to be the best. Similarly gear-based attributes make
putting in the hours, or efficient gear choices, or being a ninja, or
buying gold, ways to be the best.

There's an attitude I sense here that any arbitrary way of being the
best is acceptable, except one that depends on how well you actually
play the game. Maybe it is because that is inevitably there anyway, I
suppose... I don;t want it to take over, I just think there's nothing
wrong with looking at alternatives even if they strengthen it.

> > > > Um... isn't "the chosen abilities and how they are employed" pretty much
> > > > a description of what I am proposing? Except that I focus on how they
> > > > are employed, not in grinding out levels of or bonuses to each skill, as
> > > > in CoX. You want to be a swordsman? Then grab a sword and master the
> > > > moves and strategies involved. It will be easy enough that anyone can
> > > > learn to do it well, hard enough that the best will have an edge. But
> > > > you have no way of knowing whether you'd be better at playing a
> > > > swordsman or a mage depending on your real life intelligence or
> > > > dexterity. Both involve pushing buttons and moving the mouse and paying
> > > > attention to what's happening.
> >
> > > Yes, but mage in most worlds is far less dexterity dependent than a
> > > fighter, because their role relies on knowing lots and lots of things
> > > and spells and then casting the right spell with uber force to kill
> > > things. Fighters tend to go for faster attacks. Depends on the class
> > > and the design, of course, but if we eliminate stats from the
> > > characters then it seems that playstyle should still conform to those
> > > stereotypes -- or else, the playstyle is nothing like what the
> > > character should be, which is bad -- and that means that what I said
> > > would likely happen.
> >
> > Have you tried World of Warcraft? It's not like that at all.
>
> Yes, and that's what I didn't like about it [grin]
>
> All the
> > classes have pretty much equally complex skill sets and options. The
> > mage is actually one of the simpler ones. If there's a speed difference
> > between classes, it's very small - at most the difference between a 1.0s
> > tick and a 1.5s tick.
>
> Note that my point was that once you bring player ability into the
> picture as a big factor either you have a playstyle unrelated to a
> character -- ie mages need player dexterity instead of intelligence,
> which they aren't supposed to need in the world -- or you start making
> the player requirements for the class match those of the class itself,
> making it so that people are choosing classes based on their own
> ability.

The typical RPG model makes no sense, actually - mages wear cloth armour
precisely because it is dexterity that they need to rapidly make
complicated gestures! Somebody in plate armour carrying a huge
broadsword will be moving slowly and infrequently.

But I would be keeping the WoW-style model, in which no class requires
more player dexterity than another, in general.

> > How about if swords were like Tetris, but maces were like an FPS? If
> > you wanted to play a warrior, you could choose weapons to suit your
> > skills. Or perhaps you could even decide which way you wanted to
> > implement combat on any weapon. You could reserve the Tetris for your
> > favourite weapon, and put FPS on a weapon you didn't care to use much.
> > PvP would be tricky to implement, though...
> >
> > Well, there's my game-design idea of the day! I'd certainly try a game
> > like that
>
> I won't say that that sort of game is bad. I wouldn't play it, but I
> can see why someone might enjoy it. However, this sort of system is
> NOT improving roleplaying, and still limits the characters I can
> create. If I'm bad at Tetris, I can't use swords. If I'm not good at
> FPS, I can't use maces. Or I have to find a combat system that works
> for my abilities and assign it to my favorite weapon. And note that
> the Tetris "mini-game" is completely unrelated to combat, which breaks
> immersion. Wasn't it Morrowind that was criticized for this with its
> lock-picking and diplomacy mini-games?

What was wrong with the lock-picking... it featured a lock! Back when
Wizardry 5 used to do the exact same thing, everybody raved about how
great it was.

The diplomacy game was a bit simplistic, I agree.

The Puzzle Pirates swordfighting mini-game is actually sword themed!
You create large blocks of a particular colour, drop a sword block of
the same colour, and swords will penetrate your opponents position,
disrupting his play.

- Gerry Quinn
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In article <funuqf$mj4$1@rumours.uwaterloo.ca>,
Ross Ridge <rridge DeleteThis @caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>Kendrick Kerwin Chua <kendrick DeleteThis @nospam.io> wrote:
>>Localization doesn't have to be cheap, but you're right that it's
>>frequently done with an eye towards the bottom line. But if you leave out
>>all the spoken dialogue and half of the minigames and never bother with
>>the two expansion disks, then you can certainly do it inexpensively. The
>>only risk is the wrath of Internet complainers.
>
>Localization is always relatively cheap. The cost hiring the best
>translators and voice actors, as well as couple of programers to work
>on localizing a game for a few months is a tiny fraction of the cost
>developing the game in the first place.

I don't disagree with you, but I don't think that the two are always
measured against each other when the decision to release a game is being
made. Especially with a company like Atlus, some do nothing but
localization and so there's no substitution occuring. It's not as if
they're sitting around saying 'We want to develop our own property, but
it's cheaper to translate another Trauma Center game.'

I also don't think the expense is as fractional as you think it is,
although I don't have any real numbers to back up the assertion. But
American union scale pay for voice acting is $65 an hour (not counting
studio expenses), and they're only allowed to work four hours a day. When
a week's worth of labor might produce only ten minutes of usable audio,
the time and effort could easily rival that of a programmer. That all goes
out the window if you're using non-union labor from Vancouver.

-KKC, who doesn't live in the right place to be a voiceover guy.
--
-- "Arabs are the new Asians, at least in media. Stereotypes gave way to
deeper roles over 40 years of assimilation into western culture. Bruce Lee
kicks ass, Jackie Chan gets laughs, B.D. Wong is a top. Arabs have | kendrick
had Klinger and Monk. Clearly, they have some catching up to do." | @io.com
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Thus spake Zaghadka <zaghadka.RemoveThis@hotmail.com>, Wed, 23 Apr 2008 03:07:52 GMT,
Anno Domini:

>On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 01:55:03 +0000 (UTC), in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg, Paulon
>wrote:
>
>>With a deafening roar and a whoosh of spray, Michael Cecil swings about
>>and addresses the awaiting newsgroup...
>>
>>>>Sounds to me like they had better pray they never lose their reading
>>>>finger in an accident.
>>>
>>> Freaky. Do they read Braille or do they actually have eyeballs in
>>> their fingers?
>>
>>Neither. It's the one they point at each letter on the screen as they sound
>>out the word until they understand it. If they lost that, they couldn't
>>read at all!
>
>Thanks for the laughs guys! That was awesome. ;^)

He, he, yer welcome for my small though inaugural contribution to this
week's episode of "Old farts bash young brains"

--
Nostromo
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Ross Ridge <rridge.RemoveThis@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>Localization is always relatively cheap. The cost hiring the best
>translators and voice actors, as well as couple of programers to work
>on localizing a game for a few months is a tiny fraction of the cost
>developing the game in the first place.

Kendrick Kerwin Chua <kendrick.RemoveThis@nospam.io> wrote:
>I don't disagree with you, but I don't think that the two are always
>measured against each other when the decision to release a game is being
>made. Especially with a company like Atlus, some do nothing but
>localization and so there's no substitution occuring. It's not as if
>they're sitting around saying 'We want to develop our own property, but
>it's cheaper to translate another Trauma Center game.'

I think they're sitting around saying "What games can we convince Japanese
publishers to licence to us". Between the increasing number Japanese
publishers that do their own localization and those that would rather
get nothing than licence their games for one yen less than they think
they're worth, that's a limitted selection games. Throw out the ones
that would never sell in North America, and you'll get a list that's not
that much different than the list of games Altus and other third party
localizers are publishing.

>I also don't think the expense is as fractional as you think it is,
>although I don't have any real numbers to back up the assertion. But
>American union scale pay for voice acting is $65 an hour (not counting
>studio expenses), and they're only allowed to work four hours a day. When
>a week's worth of labor might produce only ten minutes of usable audio,
>the time and effort could easily rival that of a programmer. That all goes
>out the window if you're using non-union labor from Vancouver.

Well, I assumed hiring the best voice actors would cost more than scale.
Hiring full time programmers, artists, designers, and a host of managers
and support personal for two or more years complete with benefits is
going to cost more.

Ross Ridge

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge.RemoveThis@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/
db //
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Thus spake Ross Ridge <rridge RemoveThis @caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca>, Wed, 23 Apr
2008 14:26:41 -0400, Anno Domini:

>Ross Ridge wrote:
>> Yah. I cringe when I see some reviewer complain about the lack of voice
>> acting in a game and complain about having to read too much text.
>
>Nostromo <nostromo RemoveThis @nospam.org> wrote:
>>That's because they're under 25 & have adapted to listen faster than
>>they can think. Just imagine what their reading skills are like.
>
>Unfortunately, In most cases when I hear a reviewer complain about there
>too much text to read, I know they're a fair bit older than that.

God damn hippie scum!!!

--
Nostromo
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Kendrick Kerwin Chua wrote:
> In article <fulseg$6c0$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
> Nostromo <nostromo.RemoveThis@nospam.org> wrote:
>> I think voice acting should be reserved for cut scenes you can skip at
>> will ala Guild Wars, where they insert your own character's voice in a
>> minimalist way (perhaps give you a choice of a few female voices at
>> character creation, though I appreciate that could amount to a LOT of
>> repeated speech recording).
>
> Some games have this level of customization, albeit for non-language uses
> of voice. Phantasy Star Universe lets you pick one of ten voices for each
> gender, and then you can customize the pitch up or down as it suits the
> age and/or size of the character. This is mostly for sword-swinging or
> spellcasting exclamations, although the different voices each have
> unique sarcastic things to say when resurrection of the character occurs.

Cool, though why they haven't gone to even this level of voice
customisation in PC RPGs is a mystery.

>> Ultimately, if we had speech synthesis half as good as our CGI this
>> wouldn't be an issue & we wouldn't even think twice about voice actors.
>> We can (almost) get complex facial expressions down pat now in games,
>> but our e-voice technology still sounds like Stephen Hawking - what's up
>> with that? :-/
>
> There's not enough information in written text to describe how and when
> certain words should be said. We understand as human beings where the
> emphasis and pauses go, but there's no way to get a machine to know this
> without lots of numerical data associated with each word in context. By
> the time you get through all the math, it's just easier to record dialogue
> performed by a real actor.

True, so you would obviously need an advanced linguistic engine where
the programmers could choose from a multitude of
inflections/tones/sounds to overload the basic written speech with. They
would also need libraries of hardcoded phrases as well no doubt. It's
quite doable if you look at how far we've come with other areas of
computing so far. It's probably the only thing stopping movie makers
from a completely & truly artificial movie production i.e. there's
always voice actors to record, unless you want to do a CGI version of Mr
Bean .

> As I understand it, artificial language is easier to do the more rigid the
> ruleset is. There's a Japanese singing application I can't remember the
> name of that produces a fairly passable female voice, but for song lyrics
> only. The English language has different rules depending on regional
> accents and age-appropriate word choices and how much Yiddish you learned
> from watching old Looney Tunes. Can you imagine trying to get a computer
> to understand the difference between "*I* should pay for this?" and "I
> should *pay* for this?"

It doesn't have to _understand_ the difference - only the script writers
& developers need to do that. I think we have the capability right now
for transcribing written words into voice quite effectively, I was just
bemused that no one seems to have gone very far down this path in the
entertainment industries as yet.

--
Nostromo
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In article <fuopb4$7gf$1@registered.motzarella.org>, nostromo.DeleteThis@nospam.org
says...
> Kendrick Kerwin Chua wrote:

> > There's not enough information in written text to describe how and when
> > certain words should be said. We understand as human beings where the
> > emphasis and pauses go, but there's no way to get a machine to know this
> > without lots of numerical data associated with each word in context. By
> > the time you get through all the math, it's just easier to record dialogue
> > performed by a real actor.
>
> True, so you would obviously need an advanced linguistic engine where
> the programmers could choose from a multitude of
> inflections/tones/sounds to overload the basic written speech with. They
> would also need libraries of hardcoded phrases as well no doubt. It's
> quite doable if you look at how far we've come with other areas of
> computing so far. It's probably the only thing stopping movie makers
> from a completely & truly artificial movie production i.e. there's
> always voice actors to record, unless you want to do a CGI version of Mr
> Bean .

Essentially it would be a mark-up language like HTML. The text would
have embedded markers related to emphasis and intonation. You could
edit and test it on the fly.

- Gerry Quinn
 >> Stay informed about: RPG Report & Planescape: Torment 

>>> Ultimately, if we had speech synthesis half as good as our CGI this
>>> wouldn't be an issue & we wouldn't even think twice about voice actors.
>>> We can (almost) get complex facial expressions down pat now in games,
>>> but our e-voice technology still sounds like Stephen Hawking - what's up
>>> with that? :-/
>>
>> There's not enough information in written text to describe how and when
>> certain words should be said. We understand as human beings where the
>> emphasis and pauses go, but there's no way to get a machine to know this
>> without lots of numerical data associated with each word in context. By
>> the time you get through all the math, it's just easier to record
>> dialogue performed by a real actor.
>
> It doesn't have to _understand_ the difference - only the script writers &
> developers need to do that. I think we have the capability right now for
> transcribing written words into voice quite effectively, I was just
> bemused that no one seems to have gone very far down this path in the
> entertainment industries as yet.
>

Many, many years ago on my TRS-80 Coco2 I had a text-to-speech translator
card. It didn't take me too long to learn how to type so that the spoken
text would come out how I wanted it to. It was a simple grasp of phonetics
and how the card worked. Speech synthesis shouldn't be that hard to do.

Chuck
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