Windows 98 and its DOS mode option

On 18 Feb, 13:46, riku <r....RemoveThis@none.invalid.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 10:57:56 -0500, Ross Ridge
>
> <rri....RemoveThis@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
> >rpgs rock dvds  <rpgsrockd....RemoveThis@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> >>Just out of curiousity I had a browse on ebay to look for a suitable
> >>legacy machine, such as your Pentium P133 spec'd machine, and was
> >>surprised that I couldn't find anything.  (Maybe a local paper
> >>classified ads would prove more fruitful.)
>
> >Something that as old as a 133MHz Pentium is considered garbage today.
> >Charities won't even accept them.  Try looking for a Pentium II or Pentium
> >III based computer.
>
> I must admit that going with a new PC running DosBOX is the more
> sensible way to go, even without installing dualboot for Win98.
> Especially if you can buy external MT-32 (and SC-55) to get proper
> sounds from DOS games.

Being a noob at building a new PC, I'm only just realising my
problems. In order to get Win 98 to work, the new PC's internals must
have the correct drivers, but many modern add-in components don't
support this older OS.

My new Asus mobo doesn't support my new SATA HDD running Windows 98.
My new Creative sound card only supports XP onwards! God knows if
there are any Win 98 drivers for my new 8800GT card - I doubt it.
This is looking grim. Pity, as I've just shelled out £30 ($60US) for
a copy of Win 98! Also, my mobo has 2GB of memory, and I've heard
that Win98 doesn't like more than 512MB of RAM, although I've also
heard there's a workaround for this.

I think I might just stick to one machine, XP and DOSBox. I just hope
that not too many of the old games I've recently bought are Win9x
only. (Getting a legacy PC for this is I think the ideal solution,
but very unfortunately I just can't justify all the extra hardware
clutter that this will entail.)

Regards, Robert.

PS ~ I know this sounds bonkers, but is anyone writing a Win9x
emulator?!
 >> Stay informed about: Windows 98 and its DOS mode option 

On 20 Feb, 14:30, riku <r....RemoveThis@none.invalid.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 05:36:07 -0800 (PST), rpgs rock dvds
>
> <rpgsrockd....RemoveThis@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> >Being a noob at building a new PC, I'm only just realising my
> >problems.  In order to get Win 98 to work, the new PC's internals must
> >have the correct drivers, but many modern add-in components don't
> >support this older OS.
>
> That's one concern. My ATI Radeon X800 (IIRC the model right ) did
> eventually get updated Win9x drivers, but it is quite old graphics
> card. Damn, my main gaming PC is starting to look like a retro PC
> already. AMD Athlon XP 1800, 768MB RAM, ATI Radeon etc. Runs e.g.
> Half-life 2 fine though.
>
> I have some lose money right now so I could buy a whole new PC, but
> then I remember I still have heaps of years old games that I want to
> play, and they play fine on that machine already. I'd probably just
> check how Crysis and COD4 demos looked like on it, and then continued
> to play old games on it. Overkill.
>
> >My new Asus mobo doesn't support my new SATA HDD running Windows 98.
> >My new Creative sound card only supports XP onwards!  God knows if
> >there are any Win 98 drivers for my new 8800GT card - I doubt it.
> >This is looking grim.  Pity, as I've just shelled out £30 ($60US) for
> >a copy of Win 98!  Also, my mobo has 2GB of memory, and I've heard
> >that Win98 doesn't like more than 512MB of RAM, although I've also
> >heard there's a workaround for this.
>
> Too bad, I didn't realize your current PC is not Win98 compatible, I
> thought that was sorted out already.
>
> About the memory problem, it is true Win9x can start running
> erratically if you have more than 512MB of RAM. But there is a
> workaround for it, in Win98 Control Panel you can restrict the amount
> of memory Win98 can see to 512MB. Sorry I don't remember quite exactly
> where you can find that option, but anyway you don't need to
> physically remove the "excess" memory for Win98.
>
> I think there was also some other solution for that problem, by
> restricting VCACHE or something? Anyway, Microsoft homepage should
> have info about both solutions.
>
> >I think I might just stick to one machine, XP and DOSBox.  I just hope
> >that not too many of the old games I've recently bought are Win9x
> >only.
>
> I think that is the easiest and most straightforward solution, giving
> you the least headache. DOSBox works pretty nicely with a fast
> machine, and most Win9x games should be playable on WinXP system. Only
> if you run into problems, you could revise your plans.
>
> Even though they exist, off the top of my head I can't recall a Win9x
> game I couldn't get to run in WinXP. IIRC Dark Reign didn't want to
> even install on XP, but I was able to install and play it as well by
> setting the compatibility mode both for the installation executable,
> and the actual game executable.
>
> >(Getting a legacy PC for this is I think the ideal solution,
> >but very unfortunately I just can't justify all the extra hardware
> >clutter that this will entail.)
>
> I think it is not that sensible to actually buy a separate legacy PC,
> unless you run into serious problems. I have a retro-PC simply because
> I've always owned it. Oh and I still want to use the Roland SCC-1 (ISA
> card), so that is one reason too.
>
> I think I will be using DOSBox more and more especially after I buy a
> faster PC.
>
> >PS ~ I know this sounds bonkers, but is anyone writing a Win9x
> >emulator?!
>
> If there ever comes a grave need for one, I think one will be made,
> just like DOSBox was made as DOS games were harder and harder to make
> run on newer Windows versions.

Good post, as always, thanks.
 >> Stay informed about: Windows 98 and its DOS mode option 

In article <87456d70-7f85-4ce6-a7e3-cc0224a059c2.TakeThisOut@k2g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
rpgs rock dvds <rpgsrockdvds.TakeThisOut@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>I think I might just stick to one machine, XP and DOSBox. I just hope
>that not too many of the old games I've recently bought are Win9x
>only. (Getting a legacy PC for this is I think the ideal solution,
>but very unfortunately I just can't justify all the extra hardware
>clutter that this will entail.)

If you're worried about desktop real estate, I'd suggest getting an older
laptop to run your Windows 9X software. They're cheap, nobody wants them,
and they're generally built to spec with compatible components. You could
easily have it folded up and tucked away, connected only through a KVM and
whatever external optical drive you care to attach.

>PS ~ I know this sounds bonkers, but is anyone writing a Win9x
>emulator?!

You might want to do a search for ReactOS. However, it's in a very
rudimentary Beta stage and the end result aims to cover the latest Win32
functionality beyond what Windows 98 offered. Still, unless you want to
explore WINE under Linux it's the closest thing to non-Windows Windows I
can think of.

-KKC, doing fun things with virtual machines.
--
-- "Arabs are the new Asians, at least in media. Stereotypes gave way to
deeper roles over 40 years of assimilation into western culture. Bruce Lee
kicks ass, Jackie Chan gets laughs, B.D. Wong is a top. Arabs have | kendrick
had Klinger and Monk. Clearly, they have some catching up to do." | @io.com
 >> Stay informed about: Windows 98 and its DOS mode option 

On 20 Feb, 13:50, Kendrick Kerwin Chua <kendr....TakeThisOut@nospam.io> wrote:
> In article <87456d70-7f85-4ce6-a7e3-cc0224a05....TakeThisOut@k2g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
> rpgs rock dvds  <rpgsrockd....TakeThisOut@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> >I think I might just stick to one machine, XP and DOSBox.  I just hope
> >that not too many of the old games I've recently bought are Win9x
> >only.  (Getting a legacy PC for this is I think the ideal solution,
> >but very unfortunately I just can't justify all the extra hardware
> >clutter that this will entail.)
>
> If you're worried about desktop real estate, I'd suggest getting an older
> laptop to run your Windows 9X software. They're cheap, nobody wants them,
> and they're generally built to spec with compatible components. You could
> easily have it folded up and tucked away, connected only through a KVM and
> whatever external optical drive you care to attach.
>
> >PS ~ I know this sounds bonkers, but is anyone writing a Win9x
> >emulator?!
>
> You might want to do a search for ReactOS. However, it's in a very
> rudimentary Beta stage and the end result aims to cover the latest Win32
> functionality beyond what Windows 98 offered. Still, unless you want to
> explore WINE under Linux it's the closest thing to non-Windows Windows I
> can think of.
>
> -KKC, doing fun things with virtual machines.
> --
> --  "Arabs are the new Asians, at least in media. Stereotypes gave way to
> deeper roles over 40 years of assimilation into western culture. Bruce Lee
> kicks ass, Jackie Chan gets laughs, B.D. Wong is a top. Arabs have | kendrick
> had Klinger and Monk. Clearly, they have some catching up to do."  | @io..com

The laptop and Wine suggestions are very interesting. So many
choices! )
 >> Stay informed about: Windows 98 and its DOS mode option 

On 20 Feb, 16:47, Ross Ridge <rri....RemoveThis@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
wrote:
> rpgs rock dvds  <rpgsrockd....RemoveThis@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Being a noob at building a new PC, I'm only just realising my
> >problems.  In order to get Win 98 to work, the new PC's internals must
> >have the correct drivers, but many modern add-in components don't
> >support this older OS.
>
> >My new Asus mobo doesn't support my new SATA HDD running Windows 98.
>
> You should be able to get it work at some level.  At the very least
> Windows 98 can use the BIOS to do access the hard drive, and you should
> be set SATA controller to emulate an IDE controller in the BIOS options.
> You'll need to create a FAT32 partion that's less than 120 MB in size.
>
> >My new Creative sound card only supports XP onwards!
>
> Some relatively recent Creative sound cards are backwards compatabile
> enough with the SoundBlaster Live! that they do support Windows 98 but
> I don't think you can get the drivers from Creative any more.
>
> > God knows if there are any Win 98 drivers for my new 8800GT card -
> >I doubt it.
>
> It looks like the last NVIDIA cards to support Windows 98 were the GeForce
> 6x00 series.  You can still boot Windows 98 in VGA compatible mode.
> The SVGA drivers might let you get 800x600 graphics.
>
> >This is looking grim.  Pity, as I've just shelled out =A330 ($60US) for
> >a copy of Win 98!
>
> I hope it was Windows 98 SE.  If it's not the "Second Edition" you're
> going to find it has even more compatibility problems.
>
> > Also, my mobo has 2GB of memory, and I've heard
> >that Win98 doesn't like more than 512MB of RAM, although I've also
> >heard there's a workaround for this.
>
> Yah, there's a simple fix for that.  Edit SYSTEM.INI and add:
>
>         [vcache]
>         MaxFileCache=500000
>
> >I think I might just stick to one machine, XP and DOSBox.
>
> This is probably the best option on your machine.
>
>                                                 Ross Ridge
>
> --
>  l/  //   Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
> [oo][oo]  rri...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
> -()-/()/  http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/
>  db  //  

Maybe the Win98 idea isn't entirely dead in the water?

I could get a 2nd *IDE* hard drive (just to be on the safe side), and
put Win98 on it, seperate from the XP HDD. (My Asus mobo says it
needs XP or later for SATA, period.)

For the sound card, maybe get an older Creative card from ebay - when
I physically install the card, I could tell XP to disable it (ie
ignore it), and when I boot in to Win98 HDD, install some older
drivers for it from the net somewhere.

If I need to run a Win9x game, change the boot options in the BIOS to
boot from the Win98 HDD, and away I go. Well, in theory!

Thanks, regards, Robert.
 >> Stay informed about: Windows 98 and its DOS mode option 

On Feb 20, 5:36 am, rpgs rock dvds <rpgsrockd....RemoveThis@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> On 18 Feb, 13:46, riku <r....RemoveThis@none.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 10:57:56 -0500, Ross Ridge
>
> > <rri....RemoveThis@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
> > >rpgs rock dvds <rpgsrockd....RemoveThis@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> > >>Just out of curiousity I had a browse on ebay to look for a suitable
> > >>legacy machine, such as your Pentium P133 spec'd machine, and was
> > >>surprised that I couldn't find anything. (Maybe a local paper
> > >>classified ads would prove more fruitful.)
>
> > >Something that as old as a 133MHz Pentium is considered garbage today.
> > >Charities won't even accept them. Try looking for a Pentium II or Pentium
> > >III based computer.
>
> > I must admit that going with a new PC running DosBOX is the more
> > sensible way to go, even without installing dualboot for Win98.
> > Especially if you can buy external MT-32 (and SC-55) to get proper
> > sounds from DOS games.
>
> Being a noob at building a new PC, I'm only just realising my
> problems. In order to get Win 98 to work, the new PC's internals must
> have the correct drivers, but many modern add-in components don't
> support this older OS.
>
> My new Asus mobo doesn't support my new SATA HDD running Windows 98.
> My new Creative sound card only supports XP onwards! God knows if
> there are any Win 98 drivers for my new 8800GT card - I doubt it.
> This is looking grim. Pity, as I've just shelled out £30 ($60US) for
> a copy of Win 98! Also, my mobo has 2GB of memory, and I've heard
> that Win98 doesn't like more than 512MB of RAM, although I've also
> heard there's a workaround for this.

There is one, I used to use it and have 1.5gb in win98 with no
issues. sorry don't remember what it was off the top of my head, but
I think it was just a single reg key.

I ran into pretty much the same thing when I last upgraded my CPU &
Motherboard, and that was over 4 years ago. I kept asking the
salespeople - are you *SURE* this motherboard will work with 98. Of
course they always said yes. I went through 4 motherboards all
returned before I gave up and installed win2k. Win2k has been far
more stable on the upside, but there's games coming out now that just
won't run on it, like the witcher.

If you do decide to try to keep to win98 I'd suggest trying to find
and use win98se if at all possible. It is much more stable and
compatible.

>
> I think I might just stick to one machine, XP and DOSBox. I just hope
> that not too many of the old games I've recently bought are Win9x
> only. (Getting a legacy PC for this is I think the ideal solution,
> but very unfortunately I just can't justify all the extra hardware
> clutter that this will entail.)
> Regards, Robert.
>
> PS ~ I know this sounds bonkers, but is anyone writing a Win9x
> emulator?!

Heh, Virtual PC I think can handle it.
 >> Stay informed about: Windows 98 and its DOS mode option 

rpgs rock dvds <rpgsrockdvds.RemoveThis@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>Being a noob at building a new PC, I'm only just realising my
>problems. In order to get Win 98 to work, the new PC's internals must
>have the correct drivers, but many modern add-in components don't
>support this older OS.
>
>My new Asus mobo doesn't support my new SATA HDD running Windows 98.

You should be able to get it work at some level. At the very least
Windows 98 can use the BIOS to do access the hard drive, and you should
be set SATA controller to emulate an IDE controller in the BIOS options.
You'll need to create a FAT32 partion that's less than 120 MB in size.

>My new Creative sound card only supports XP onwards!

Some relatively recent Creative sound cards are backwards compatabile
enough with the SoundBlaster Live! that they do support Windows 98 but
I don't think you can get the drivers from Creative any more.

> God knows if there are any Win 98 drivers for my new 8800GT card -
>I doubt it.

It looks like the last NVIDIA cards to support Windows 98 were the GeForce
6x00 series. You can still boot Windows 98 in VGA compatible mode.
The SVGA drivers might let you get 800x600 graphics.

>This is looking grim. Pity, as I've just shelled out =A330 ($60US) for
>a copy of Win 98!

I hope it was Windows 98 SE. If it's not the "Second Edition" you're
going to find it has even more compatibility problems.

> Also, my mobo has 2GB of memory, and I've heard
>that Win98 doesn't like more than 512MB of RAM, although I've also
>heard there's a workaround for this.

Yah, there's a simple fix for that. Edit SYSTEM.INI and add:

[vcache]
MaxFileCache=500000

>I think I might just stick to one machine, XP and DOSBox.

This is probably the best option on your machine.

Ross Ridge

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge.RemoveThis@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/
db //
 >> Stay informed about: Windows 98 and its DOS mode option 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: Windows 98 and its DOS mode option 

rpgs rock dvds <rpgsrockdvds RemoveThis @hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>I could get a 2nd *IDE* hard drive (just to be on the safe side), and
>put Win98 on it, seperate from the XP HDD. (My Asus mobo says it
>needs XP or later for SATA, period.)

It only needs Windows XP for the driver the enables SATA features
and speed. If Windows XP can boot off it then Windows 98 can use it.

>For the sound card, maybe get an older Creative card from ebay - when
>I physically install the card, I could tell XP to disable it (ie
>ignore it), and when I boot in to Win98 HDD, install some older
>drivers for it from the net somewhere.

You don't need to disable it, you can have multiple sound cards in
a system. You might also see if your onboard motherboard soundcard can
be made to work with Windows 98.

>If I need to run a Win9x game, change the boot options in the BIOS to
>boot from the Win98 HDD, and away I go. Well, in theory!

I'd just install them on the same harddrive. Format a 20 Gb or so
partition as FAT32 make it the primary partition (your "C" drive).
Format the rest of your drive as an NTFS partition (your "D" drive").
Install Windows 98 to the "C" drive and the Windows XP to the "D" drive.
Then edit the BOOT.INI so you select either Windows XP or Windows 98
on boot. This pretty much describes how I've got machine set up to dual
boot Windows XP and Windows 98 right now.

Your biggest problem with running Windows games (as opposed to MS-DOS
games) on Windows 98 will be your video card. Under Windows 98 the
best it will support is 800x600 and you may only be limitted to 640x480.
I think you'll stuck with 16 colour (4-bit) graphics, in which case it'll
be useless for Windows games. Sticking a PCI graphics card with Windows
98 support is one possible solution to the problem, but you'd have to
have to switch monitor cables around (or get a KVM switch, or have
two monitors).

All-in-all, I don't think this is worth the trouble. I'd just go with
Windows XP and DosBox. I don't think you'll find that there's many
games that really need Windows 98. If you do an easier solution would
be a second computer and a KVM switch.

Ross Ridge

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge RemoveThis @csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/
db //
 >> Stay informed about: Windows 98 and its DOS mode option 

On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:30:52 GMT, riku <riku.RemoveThis@none.invalid.com> wrote:

>I have some lose money right now so I could buy a whole new PC, but
>then I remember I still have heaps of years old games that I want to
>play, and they play fine on that machine already. I'd probably just
>check how Crysis and COD4 demos looked like on it, and then continued
>to play old games on it. Overkill.

Heh. This describes what I would do with a new machine perfectly. I'd
try a few new games, then go back to playing Baldur's Gate.
 >> Stay informed about: Windows 98 and its DOS mode option 

On 20 Feb, 20:42, Ross Ridge <rri....DeleteThis@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
wrote:
> rpgs rock dvds  <rpgsrockd....DeleteThis@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >I could get a 2nd *IDE* hard drive (just to be on the safe side), and
> >put Win98 on it, seperate from the XP HDD.  (My Asus mobo says it
> >needs XP or later for SATA, period.)
>
> It only needs Windows XP for the driver the enables SATA features
> and speed.  If Windows XP can boot off it then Windows 98 can use it.
>
> >For the sound card, maybe get an older Creative card from ebay - when
> >I physically install the card, I could tell XP to disable it (ie
> >ignore it), and when I boot in to Win98 HDD, install some older
> >drivers for it from the net somewhere.
>
> You don't need to disable it, you can have multiple sound cards in
> a system.  You might also see if your onboard motherboard soundcard can
> be made to work with Windows 98.
>
> >If I need to run a Win9x game, change the boot options in the BIOS to
> >boot from the Win98 HDD, and away I go.  Well, in theory!  
>
> I'd just install them on the same harddrive.  Format a 20 Gb or so
> partition as FAT32 make it the primary partition (your "C" drive).
> Format the rest of your drive as an NTFS partition (your "D" drive").
> Install Windows 98 to the "C" drive and the Windows XP to the "D" drive.
> Then edit the BOOT.INI so you select either Windows XP or Windows 98
> on boot.  This pretty much describes how I've got machine set up to dual
> boot Windows XP and Windows 98 right now.
>
> Your biggest problem with running Windows games (as opposed to MS-DOS
> games) on Windows 98 will be your video card.  Under Windows 98 the
> best it will support is 800x600 and you may only be limitted to 640x480.
> I think you'll stuck with 16 colour (4-bit) graphics, in which case it'll
> be useless for Windows games.  Sticking a PCI graphics card with Windows
> 98 support is one possible solution to the problem, but you'd have to
> have to switch monitor cables around (or get a KVM switch, or have
> two monitors).
>
> All-in-all, I don't think this is worth the trouble.  I'd just go with
> Windows XP and DosBox.  I don't think you'll find that there's many
> games that really need Windows 98.  If you do an easier solution would
> be a second computer and a KVM switch.
>
>                                                 Ross Ridge
>
> --
>  l/  //   Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
> [oo][oo]  rri...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
> -()-/()/  http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/
>  db  //  

Regarding the video card issue, I did find this on the net, and its
public release date appears quite new:

http://bearwindows.boot-land.net/vbe9x.htm

It's a universal VESA/VBE video display driver for Win9x. Reading the
website, the author states the importance that one's particular video
card's BIOS must be 100%-compatible with VESA Video BIOS extensions
specification. I have a new eVGA nVida 8800GT card, and when I have a
moment, I'll browse eVGA's website and try and find out.

Regards, Robert.
 >> Stay informed about: Windows 98 and its DOS mode option 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: Windows 98 and its DOS mode option 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: Windows 98 and its DOS mode option