{kjd-sys} Races, classes, and advancement

Justisaur <justisaur RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 9, 6:16 pm, Keith Davies <keith.dav... RemoveThis @kjdavies.org> wrote:
>> Justisaur <justis... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Apr 9, 12:51 pm, Keith Davies <keith.dav... RemoveThis @kjdavies.org> wrote:
>> >> Justisaur <justis... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > On Mar 28, 2:37 pm, Keith Davies <keith.dav... RemoveThis @kjdavies.org> wrote:
>>
>> >> Shift it one level, then:
>>
>> >> Str 10 item: 1k
>> >> Str 12 item: 4k <-- par with current +2
>> >> Str 14 item: 9k
>> >> Str 16 item: 16k <-- par with current +4
>> >> Str 18 item: 25k
>> >> Str 20 item: 36k <-- par with current +6
>> >> Str 22 item: 49k
>> >> Str 24 item: 64k <-- par with current +8*
>> >> Str 26 item: 81k
>> >> Str 28 item: 100k <-- par with current +10*
>>
>> >> And maybe drop the Str 10 item ('gloves of normal strength')
>>
>> > That looks pretty good. 12 Str item for the same as a +1 sword.
>>
>> Str 12 item is twice as much as a +1 sword.
>
> Ah, well. Still looks pretty good.

It's applicable to more things, if it applies at all, and it might be
better than the +1 (going from 6 to 12 is a 3-point jump in modifier).
I'm willing to accept it being worth twice as much as a +1 sword, for
those who need it. I'd say it's probably not worth more than that
because if you need/want a Str 12 item, Str probably isn't *really* that
important to you -- you'd be chasing the bigger items them.

>> You might consider having the items affect the *base* ability scores,
>> though. If you get racial, inherent, etc. bonuses, it might be
>> appropriate to apply them *after* the item. An orc with a Str 14 item
>> would probably be stronger than a human with the same item (depending on
>> rolls, of course).
>
> I don't think I care much for that. So your Orc who picks up a 14 str
> item would have an 18. Then your Kobold would have a 10?

I thought I'd mention it as something to think about.

I'm not sure I like having the item trump everything, including race and
inherent bonuses. I could probably be persuaded, though.


Keith
--
Keith Davies I married the moonshiner's daughter
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keith.davies RemoveThis @gmail.com The moonshiner's daughter
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And makes me liquor all night long
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Keith Davies <keith.davies.DeleteThis@kjdavies.org> wrote:

>Justisaur <justisaur.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Apr 9, 6:16 pm, Keith Davies <keith.dav....DeleteThis@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>>> Justisaur <justis....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > On Apr 9, 12:51 pm, Keith Davies <keith.dav....DeleteThis@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>>> >> Justisaur <justis....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> > On Mar 28, 2:37 pm, Keith Davies <keith.dav....DeleteThis@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> >> Shift it one level, then:
>>>
>>> >> Str 10 item: 1k
>>> >> Str 12 item: 4k <-- par with current +2
>>> >> Str 14 item: 9k
>>> >> Str 16 item: 16k <-- par with current +4
>>> >> Str 18 item: 25k
>>> >> Str 20 item: 36k <-- par with current +6
>>> >> Str 22 item: 49k
>>> >> Str 24 item: 64k <-- par with current +8*
>>> >> Str 26 item: 81k
>>> >> Str 28 item: 100k <-- par with current +10*
>>>
>>> >> And maybe drop the Str 10 item ('gloves of normal strength')
>>>
>>> > That looks pretty good. 12 Str item for the same as a +1 sword.
>>>
>>> Str 12 item is twice as much as a +1 sword.
>>
>> Ah, well. Still looks pretty good.
>
>It's applicable to more things, if it applies at all, and it might be
>better than the +1 (going from 6 to 12 is a 3-point jump in modifier).
>I'm willing to accept it being worth twice as much as a +1 sword, for
>those who need it. I'd say it's probably not worth more than that
>because if you need/want a Str 12 item, Str probably isn't *really* that
>important to you -- you'd be chasing the bigger items them.
>
>>> You might consider having the items affect the *base* ability scores,
>>> though. If you get racial, inherent, etc. bonuses, it might be
>>> appropriate to apply them *after* the item. An orc with a Str 14 item
>>> would probably be stronger than a human with the same item (depending on
>>> rolls, of course).
>>
>> I don't think I care much for that. So your Orc who picks up a 14 str
>> item would have an 18. Then your Kobold would have a 10?

On the other hand, a creature with str 4 (or a character in a
point-buy game who took a very low str) can buy themselves up to 10
for $1000? Could make the might housecat even more formidable...

>I thought I'd mention it as something to think about.
>
>I'm not sure I like having the item trump everything, including race and
>inherent bonuses. I could probably be persuaded, though.
>
>
>Keith
--

Kyle Wilson
email: myfirstname at wilson.mv.com
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DougL wrote:
> I'd put a hard limit in on such items at granting a value of 18 (+4)
> so that someone's "Best" ability can reasonably beat any item he can
> buy.

You were saying this in reaction to how easily a rich person could get
+28 in all stats -- but it doesn't feel quite right to me for high
plusses to be impossible. It'd fit with something like E6, which is
meant for a heric-but-not-demigodish campaign. I'm not sure how it fits
(thematically) with Keith's "no inherent bonus" rule - maybe it does,
and I'm still stuck in 'standard D&D' mode.
 >> Stay informed about: {kjd-sys} Races, classes, and advancement 

David Alex Lamb <dalamb.RemoveThis@cs.queensu.ca> wrote:

>DougL wrote:
>> I'd put a hard limit in on such items at granting a value of 18 (+4)
>> so that someone's "Best" ability can reasonably beat any item he can
>> buy.
>
>You were saying this in reaction to how easily a rich person could get
>+28 in all stats -- but it doesn't feel quite right to me for high
>plusses to be impossible. It'd fit with something like E6, which is
>meant for a heric-but-not-demigodish campaign. I'm not sure how it fits
>(thematically) with Keith's "no inherent bonus" rule - maybe it does,
>and I'm still stuck in 'standard D&D' mode.

I'd be more concerned (particularly in point buy environments) about
item use as 'prosthetics' for intentional dump-stat cripples. If I
can buy a 10-12 in a stat for cheap then I suspect that we'll see lots
of 'Elric' type characters who have the biggest negative bonuses
possible in thier dump stats and then spend a few thousand gold to
become 'normal' in those stats one they've got the money.

Even more interesting in a campaign that starts at higher levels as
those folks won't even have to play through a few levels with their
int 6/dex 6 meat shield or str 6/cha 6 wizard.

In some ways, this might make for an interesting high magic campaign
world. Folks with cripplingly bad stats in one trait that are
balanced by excellent stats elsewhere might very well rule the
roost...
--

Kyle Wilson
email: myfirstname at wilson.mv.com
 >> Stay informed about: {kjd-sys} Races, classes, and advancement 

On Apr 11, 2:50 pm, Keith Davies <keith.dav... RemoveThis @kjdavies.org> wrote:
> David Alex Lamb <dal... RemoveThis @cs.queensu.ca> wrote:
>
> > DougL wrote:
> >> I'd put a hard limit in on such items at granting a value of 18 (+4)
> >> so that someone's "Best" ability can reasonably beat any item he can
> >> buy.
>
> > You were saying this in reaction to how easily a rich person could get
> > +28 in all stats -- but it doesn't feel quite right to me for high
> > plusses to be impossible.  It'd fit with something like E6, which is
> > meant for a heric-but-not-demigodish campaign.  I'm not sure how it
> > fits (thematically) with Keith's "no inherent bonus" rule - maybe it
> > does, and I'm still stuck in 'standard D&D' mode.
>
> No enhancement bonus.  I never said anything about inherent bonuses.
>
> With these items, I might say the items can overlap base scores plus
> inherent (and probably level, if I'm doing this) bonuses.

If it stacks with racial and level adjustments to scores then these
are "Magic Items of Changed Initial Die Roll" not of overwriting your
current ability. If you do that I'd DEFINITELY put an upper limit at
less than 18, othersize NO initial ability has any real meaning by the
time you are epic. Just go with 12 for 4,000 GP, 14 for 16,000 GP, and
16 for 36,000 GP and no other choices (Gee, the existing items all
still work, just add 10). Initial abilities are from a (very) limited
set of arrays (not actually rolled or point purchased) of varying LA.
 >> Stay informed about: {kjd-sys} Races, classes, and advancement 

Kyle Wilson <UsenetMessage RemoveThis @wilson.mv.com> wrote:
> Keith Davies <keith.davies RemoveThis @kjdavies.org> wrote:
>
>>>> >> Shift it one level, then:
>>>>
>>>> >> Str 10 item: 1k
>>>> >> Str 12 item: 4k <-- par with current +2
>>>> >> Str 14 item: 9k
>>>> >> Str 16 item: 16k <-- par with current +4
>>>> >> Str 18 item: 25k
>>>> >> Str 20 item: 36k <-- par with current +6
>>>> >> Str 22 item: 49k
>>>> >> Str 24 item: 64k <-- par with current +8*
>>>> >> Str 26 item: 81k
>>>> >> Str 28 item: 100k <-- par with current +10*
>
> On the other hand, a creature with str 4 (or a character in a
> point-buy game who took a very low str) can buy themselves up to 10
> for $1000?

Could indeed, yes. If I expected these items to be commonly available
I'd probably want to bear this in mind when it comes to point counts.

> Could make the might housecat even more formidable...

If you get a big enough one. I'm leaning more toward my earlier
suggestion that creatures of all size start (barring racial modifiers)
on the 3-18 scale, with size modifiers to the *effects* of the physical
scores.

So, a typical housecat might be Str 8, with a -5(ish) size penalty on
'Str effects', a typical outdoor cat (which is more accurate for D&D
anyway) might be Str 10, with a -5 size penalty. Spending 1000gp on the
moggie would do nothing. Spending 4000gp would help a bit, but it's
still relatively weak. Strong for a cat, but the size limits it more
than a little.


Keith
--
Keith Davies I married the moonshiner's daughter
keith.davies RemoveThis @kjdavies.org How could I go wrong?
keith.davies RemoveThis @gmail.com The moonshiner's daughter
http://www.kjdavies.org/ Put some corn in the water
And makes me liquor all night long
-- Hayseed Dixie, _Moonshiner's Daughter_
 >> Stay informed about: {kjd-sys} Races, classes, and advancement 

David Alex Lamb <dalamb.TakeThisOut@cs.queensu.ca> wrote:
> DougL wrote:
>> I'd put a hard limit in on such items at granting a value of 18 (+4)
>> so that someone's "Best" ability can reasonably beat any item he can
>> buy.
>
> You were saying this in reaction to how easily a rich person could get
> +28 in all stats -- but it doesn't feel quite right to me for high
> plusses to be impossible. It'd fit with something like E6, which is
> meant for a heric-but-not-demigodish campaign. I'm not sure how it
> fits (thematically) with Keith's "no inherent bonus" rule - maybe it
> does, and I'm still stuck in 'standard D&D' mode.

No enhancement bonus. I never said anything about inherent bonuses.

With these items, I might say the items can overlap base scores plus
inherent (and probably level, if I'm doing this) bonuses.


Keith
--
Keith Davies I married the moonshiner's daughter
keith.davies.TakeThisOut@kjdavies.org How could I go wrong?
keith.davies.TakeThisOut@gmail.com The moonshiner's daughter
http://www.kjdavies.org/ Put some corn in the water
And makes me liquor all night long
-- Hayseed Dixie, _Moonshiner's Daughter_
 >> Stay informed about: {kjd-sys} Races, classes, and advancement 

Keith Davies <keith.davies.TakeThisOut@kjdavies.org> wrote:

>DougL <lampert.doug.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Apr 10, 12:25 pm, Justisaur <justis....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
Snip...
>> I'd put a hard limit in on such items at granting a value of 18 (+4)
>> so that someone's "Best" ability can reasonably beat any item he can
>> buy.
>
>Part of me agrees with this, part wonders how wondrous an item is that
>gives you human-normal (if uncommon) ability.

Think of them as the equivalent of prosthetic limbs. Stephen Hawking
with a dex 10/str 10 item would likely be very happy... I'd expect
rich but physically or mentallychallenged folks to be the main market.
Slap an int 12 item on a child with down's syndrome and watch them
have a normal childhood.

>> Note also that Kings, Emperors, and people named Elric will have
>> access to maxed out items in all abilities. Do we really want everyone
>> important to have 28 Wisdom, 28 Charisma, and 28 Intelligence?
>
>Honestly? Having people in power at the pinnacle of mental ability
>would be *wonderful*. But yeah, not very credible, looking around.
>
>> Try starting at 11, gloves of slightly below average strength strike
>> me as silly unless cursed. Cost is (score-10)^2. For a character of
>> ability 10 the cost is thus identical to the existing rules for the
>> three bonus sizes allowed by the existing (non-epic) rules.
>
>Str 10 was there mostly for completeness, though I think having an item
>to make someone with an unusually low ability score only a little below
>average is worth something.

also might be interesting if it could boost 'depleted' scores from
ability damage back to a nromal range. Get your strength sucked down
to 4 by something, just slap on your gloves of strength 10 and keep
motoring on until the effect goes away...
--

Kyle Wilson
email: myfirstname at wilson.mv.com
 >> Stay informed about: {kjd-sys} Races, classes, and advancement 

Keith Davies wrote:

> I'm thinking size modifiers happen to the effects of the scores rather
> than the scores themselves.  Basically, they apply 'after' the item.

The more you debate this, the more I like the existing system

Since my score already takes into account racial/size modifiers, merely
adding +2 to the score will continue to take into account those racial/size
modifiers.

I dunno, but it seems that all the effort going into this just means that
someone who has a STR16 needs to spend FAR more to see any boost to
strength than someone who has a STR6. Meanwhile, someone with a STR4 will
see far more benefit out of 1kgp than someone with double the strength
(STR8).

This just seems to me to be a lot of tweaking just to play nice with a
character-creation model (point-buy), when the reality is that the standard
+2 is 80% of the way there, covering nearly all the cases without some of
the weird outlying cases, such as the STR4 wimp being super-strong with a 1
or 4 kgp investment. And then throw size (and race?) on top of it, and now
there's a bunch of accounting to do again - you either need to keep your
base attributes on your sheet, or you need to track your racial/size
modifiers separately (either way amounts to about the same extra work),
just in case you get one of these things. Or you always look it up when
you need to.

In fact, it could be downright maddening to players. When you finally wrest
that STR20 item (36kgp) from the weakling prince, you find that your
fighter can't use it (already has a STR20 from a base of 18, and level 8,
both improvements going to STR), and that perhaps your wizard, of all
people, is the only logical person to get it. For 36kgp of loot? That's
disappointing. Whereas, with the current +6 that 36kgp would get, your
fighter most definitely can make use of it, and make good use of it, too.

Or if your tank only has a STR of 19, and you get the STR20 item (which, for
36kgp, only gets her a +1 to hit and damage relative to what she already
has), and then she gets to level 12, well, does she increase her strength
as she did at levels 4 and 8 (currently wasted due to this magic item) and
render the magic item moot, or does she not waste on it again, and apply it
elsewhere? None of this really makes a lot of sense to me. Much like
those gauntlets of ogre strength and belts of giant strength in 1e. They
were just annoying. When I saw the new versions in 3e, I breathed a sigh
of relief and exclaimed, "now THAT makes sense!"
 >> Stay informed about: {kjd-sys} Races, classes, and advancement 

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 18:43:16 -0700 (PDT), DougL
<lampert.doug.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:

>If it stacks with racial and level adjustments to scores then these
>are "Magic Items of Changed Initial Die Roll" not of overwriting your
>current ability. If you do that I'd DEFINITELY put an upper limit at
>less than 18, othersize NO initial ability has any real meaning by the
>time you are epic.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing. It depends on the kind of game you
want to run, but "NO initial ability has any real meaning by the
time you are epic" fits in very nicely with the old (pre-1e) view of
gods and demi-gods having 20s across the board.
Erol K. Bayburt
ErolB1.TakeThisOut@comcast.net
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