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Role difficulty and number of ascensions

 
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sjdevnull

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Since: Aug 24, 2005
Posts: 275



(Msg. 46) Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Role difficulty and number of ascensions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>games>roguelike>nethack (more info?)

On Feb 8, 11:03 am, Ohle Claussen <ohle.claus....DeleteThis@ds.mpg.de> wrote:
> Going from 78291s statistics, if he/she really is a perfect sample,
> healers should be the easiest class. Do you really think they are?

No. Going from just one player is dangerous. If you picked another
high-ascension player who's got an even better percentage (mrivan, aka
Marvin) instead of 78291 you'd guess that healers are fairly hard but
wizards and samurai are easy. Individual players have quite small
sample sizes and going from one alone is very dicey. Even for as
prolific a player as 78291, that percentage is based on only 16
games. 1-2 lucky or unlucky games would shift the relative difficulty
of the roles dramatically.

If you look at all the very experienced games--say, only those where
it's after a player's 20th ascension--you'll see that healers are
pretty tough, in the harder half of roles. They're harder to rank
than most because they're far and away the toughest role for newbies
but they're kind of middling for experienced players; most roles don't
change so dramatically. But even with that change, for experienced
players they're still well behind the usual suspects (val/bar/sam/kni/
cav or even rog/ran) as far as asc%.

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Doug Freyburger

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Since: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 41



(Msg. 47) Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Role difficulty and number of ascensions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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David Damerell <damer... RemoveThis @chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Quoting  Jorge Estrada  <jestra... RemoveThis @web.de>:
> >David Damerell wrote:
>
> >> ...Maybe my Priest batting rate
> >>is low because I am trying to do an Alpine ascension.
>
> >What is an alpine ascension?
>
> It's never really been formalised, but the idea was no unnecessary
> backtracking up/downstairs, so no stashes, etc.

Maybe a speed ascension, maybe just careful on each
level with minimum visits per level. So something like
this then -

Do the mines when you first encounter the down stairs to
that branch, or skip it completely.

Do sokoban when you encounter the up stairs to that branch,
or skip it completely.

Do Ludios if you encounter the portal to that branch, or skip
it completely.

Do the Quest when you encounter the portal. What if you
are too low a level by then? Would a level teleport to it break
alpine (down hill skiing) conduct?

Do Vlad's castle when you encounter the up ladder.

What I wonder about is Rodney's castle. Does your view of
apline include exploring past it downward to find the vibrating
square, then return to take out Rodney, then return to the
VS to get the amulet, then starting up out of the dungeon?
I take it using level teloport those two times if available would
not violate your conduct. Or is it take out Rodney on the way
down and fight him as many times as it takes to find the VS?

Of course the mysterious force bouncing you back on the
climb out of Gehennom would not count.

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Janis Papanagnou

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Since: Aug 11, 2004
Posts: 853



(Msg. 48) Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:23 pm
Post subject: Re: Role difficulty and number of ascensions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Jesssica wrote:
>
> Here you go, hopefully it's readable =)
>
> http://www.box.net/shared/zv8im42kg8

Yep, thanks Smile

Janis
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Janis Papanagnou

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Since: Aug 11, 2004
Posts: 853



(Msg. 49) Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Role difficulty and number of ascensions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Kent Paul Dolan wrote:
> Ohle Claussen <ohle.claus....TakeThisOut@ds.mpg.de> wrote:
>
>>Going from 78291s statistics, if he/she really is a perfect sample,
>>healers should be the easiest class. Do you really think they are?
>
> Yes. For an experienced player, the huge boost of HP at the
> beginning and being able to cast healing on self and pets and
> monitor the health of pets is probably an overwhelming
> collective advantage.

Advantage!? <cough> <cough> I struggle a lot with healers :-}

But you're certainly right. The biggest problem with some of the
character classes is, maybe, just a psychological one; that one
has to play them differently than other classes.

Janis
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David Damerell

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Since: Apr 06, 2005
Posts: 1031



(Msg. 50) Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Role difficulty and number of ascensions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Quoting Jorge Estrada <jestrada5 DeleteThis @web.de>:
>David Damerell wrote:
>>Also looking at a particular skilled player is junk unless you know
>>what conduct objectives they have had. Maybe my Priest batting rate
>>is low because I am trying to do an Alpine ascension.
>What is an alpine ascension?

It's never really been formalised, but the idea was no unnecessary
backtracking up/downstairs, so no stashes, etc.
--
David Damerell <damerell DeleteThis @chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is First Friday, February.
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hcobb

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Since: Feb 07, 2008
Posts: 7



(Msg. 51) Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:50 am
Post subject: Re: Role difficulty and number of ascensions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Feb 11, 10:34 am, Janis Papanagnou <Janis_Papanag... RemoveThis @hotmail.com>
wrote:
> But you're certainly right. The biggest problem with some of the
> character classes is, maybe, just a psychological one; that one
> has to play them differently than other classes.

So how about doing some datamining and split players off by the
classes they do best with then look at a report that shows for example
the second best class for a player who does best with class X?

-HJC
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sjdevnull

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Since: Aug 24, 2005
Posts: 275



(Msg. 52) Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Role difficulty and number of ascensions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Feb 12, 6:50 am, hcobb <henry.c... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 11, 10:34 am, Janis Papanagnou <Janis_Papanag... DeleteThis @hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > But you're certainly right. The biggest problem with some of the
> > character classes is, maybe, just a psychological one; that one
> > has to play them differently than other classes.
>
> So how about doing some datamining and split players off by the
> classes they do best with then look at a report that shows for example
> the second best class for a player who does best with class X?

Okay I really don't think that's effective with the number of games
available. Better idea: look at total asc% by role for players who
are best at Arc, Bar, Cav, etc*

Using this method, asc% for the top 4 roles (should fit in 80
characters) given a player who is best at:

Arc Sam 27.37% Val 22.69% Bar 17.21% Cav 15.12%
Bar Sam 15.65% Val 15.54% Cav 14.25% Kni 13.91%
Cav Val 34.00% Sam 28.57% Ran 28.18% Bar 27.71%
Hea Ran 32.21% Cav 31.43% Bar 30.89% Val 30.73%
Kni Bar 19.55% Sam 14.18% Val 13.71% Cav 10.44%
Mon Val 23.57% Sam 21.38% Bar 21.34% Cav 15.79%
Pri Bar 42.86% Val 36.23% Sam 28.04% Cav 27.94%
Ran Cav 22.46% Bar 19.23% Sam 18.97% Val 18.86%
Rog Val 24.75% Bar 23.60% Sam 19.09% Cav 14.43%
Sam Val 21.60% Bar 18.93% Ran 12.80% Cav 11.85%
Tou Val 24.64% Sam 18.06% Bar 16.43% Ran 12.60%
Val Cav 11.96% Kni 10.93% Bar 10.41% Sam 7.67%
Wiz Cav 21.69% Val 18.95% Bar 17.88% Sam 12.32%

Basically, Val/Bar/Sam/Cav are clearly the easiest roles, with Cav
probably the toughest of the 4. Players who are best at Hea are
darned good with Ran too, but there's not a whole lot of difference in
the asc% for them.




*Imagine you have
Alice: 3 ascensions. 2/80 with Hea, 1/40 with Mon, 0/40 with
everything else
Bob: 3 ascensions, 2/80 with Hea, 1/40 with Mon, 0/40 with
everything else
Chris: Many ascensions, 8/10 with Hea, 7/10 with Val, 3/10 with
everything else.

Looking at 2nd best class, you'd say there are 2 players who Mon is
the 2nd best and one who Val is the 2nd best. Mon wins.
Looking at total ascension %, you'd say they're 7/60 with Val and 5/60
with Mon so Val wins.

This eliminates the ability for the very small sample-size players to
skew things disproportianately.
And the full table (wraps heavily if you're on 80-char screen):

All roles asc% for players who are best at:

Arc Sam 27.37% Val 22.69% Bar 17.21% Cav 15.12% Kni 13.09% Hea 10.03%
Mon 7.78% Tou 7.19% Rog 6.82% Ran 6.53% Pri 6.22% Wiz 5.00%

Bar Sam 15.65% Val 15.54% Cav 14.25% Kni 13.91% Ran 10.25% Tou 9.27%
Rog 8.45% Arc 8.42% Mon 8.39% Wiz 8.11% Hea 7.75% Pri 6.26%

Cav Val 34.00% Sam 28.57% Ran 28.18% Bar 27.71% Kni 20.61% Tou 19.83%
Hea 15.73% Rog 14.29% Pri 13.10% Arc 12.00% Mon 11.29% Wiz 11.26%

Hea Ran 32.21% Cav 31.43% Bar 30.89% Val 30.73% Kni 26.85% Sam 23.43%
Rog 23.20% Pri 19.14% Tou 15.96% Mon 15.16% Arc 13.29% Wiz 11.10%

Kni Bar 19.55% Sam 14.18% Val 13.71% Cav 10.44% Hea 7.31% Tou 6.52%
Ran 6.49% Arc 6.04% Pri 5.57% Rog 4.85% Wiz 3.75% Mon 2.92%

Mon Val 23.57% Sam 21.38% Bar 21.34% Cav 15.79% Ran 15.44% Kni 13.20%
Wiz 9.59% Tou 8.41% Rog 8.26% Pri 8.19% Arc 7.20% Hea 6.43%

Pri Bar 42.86% Val 36.23% Sam 28.04% Cav 27.94% Ran 22.45% Kni 22.09%
Tou 20.72% Arc 16.33% Hea 15.29% Mon 14.72% Rog 13.99% Wiz 13.20%

Ran Cav 22.46% Bar 19.23% Sam 18.97% Val 18.86% Kni 16.18% Mon 14.22%
Hea 13.11% Rog 12.80% Pri 12.66% Arc 10.33% Tou 9.43% Wiz 7.02%

Rog Val 24.75% Bar 23.60% Sam 19.09% Cav 14.43% Ran 13.54% Hea 11.05%
Kni 9.20% Wiz 8.44% Pri 7.98% Mon 7.02% Arc 5.11% Tou 4.46%

Sam Val 21.60% Bar 18.93% Ran 12.80% Cav 11.85% Kni 11.74% Rog 11.00%
Tou 8.62% Pri 7.92% Hea 7.76% Arc 7.62% Mon 5.90% Wiz 5.72%

Tou Val 24.64% Sam 18.06% Bar 16.43% Ran 12.60% Hea 10.85% Cav 10.06%
Kni 8.84% Arc 7.27% Rog 5.90% Mon 5.33% Pri 4.38% Wiz 2.22%

Val Cav 11.96% Kni 10.93% Bar 10.41% Sam 7.67% Ran 6.72% Pri 6.21% Hea
6.03% Rog 5.59% Tou 5.27% Mon 5.09% Wiz 3.12% Arc 2.44%

Wiz Cav 21.69% Val 18.95% Bar 17.88% Sam 12.32% Rog 9.68% Tou 9.17%
Kni 8.20% Pri 6.92% Ran 6.28% Arc 5.84% Mon 5.52% Hea 4.69%

[for all of these stats I'm going off only players with at least 3
ascensions as I downloaded that data earlier and don't want to smack
up NAO again. And again in this report I disregard all games before
the player's first ascension]
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sjdevnull

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Since: Aug 24, 2005
Posts: 275



(Msg. 53) Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Role difficulty and number of ascensions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Feb 12, 3:32 pm, Derek Ray <de....TakeThisOut@moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org>
wrote:
> On 2008-02-12, sjdevn....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com <sjdevn....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > [for all of these stats I'm going off only players with at least 3
> > ascensions as I downloaded that data earlier and don't want to smack
> > up NAO again. And again in this report I disregard all games before
> > the player's first ascension]
>
> Are you also discarding all quits and escapes?

No, but NAO does start-scumming removal from the logs doesn't it?
Hmm, maybe not, there are 3208 Wiz quits on DL1 compared to 687 for
Mon (next closest).

For my personal games, I've only quit once when I'd converted pre-
Quest; that shouldn't be discarded IMO. So I'm not sure how best to
handle them, I'd be inclined to say that at least anything that's
after DL1 should count as a game. I'll re-run numbers eliminating all
quits/escapes with max DL=1.
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sjdevnull

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Since: Aug 24, 2005
Posts: 275



(Msg. 54) Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Role difficulty and number of ascensions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Feb 12, 4:26 pm, "sjdevn...@yahoo.com" <sjdevn... RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Feb 12, 3:32 pm, Derek Ray <de... RemoveThis @moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org>
> wrote:
>
> > On 2008-02-12, sjdevn... RemoveThis @yahoo.com <sjdevn... RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > [for all of these stats I'm going off only players with at least 3
> > > ascensions as I downloaded that data earlier and don't want to smack
> > > up NAO again. And again in this report I disregard all games before
> > > the player's first ascension]
>
> > Are you also discarding all quits and escapes?
>
> No, but NAO does start-scumming removal from the logs doesn't it?
> Hmm, maybe not, there are 3208 Wiz quits on DL1 compared to 687 for
> Mon (next closest).
>
> For my personal games, I've only quit once when I'd converted pre-
> Quest; that shouldn't be discarded IMO. So I'm not sure how best to
> handle them, I'd be inclined to say that at least anything that's
> after DL1 should count as a game. I'll re-run numbers eliminating all
> quits/escapes with max DL=1.

Okay, numbers with all quits/escapes for max DL=1 eliminated, again
only for players with at least 3 ascensions.

Anything else anyone wants?

Ascension percentage for players....
Up to (and including) 1st ascension:
2.82 Val
2.48 Bar
2.31 Sam
1.64 Tou
1.61 Arc
1.36 Kni
1.18 Cav
1.17 Rog
1.09 Wiz
0.93 Mon
0.87 Pri
0.79 Ran
0.51 Hea

2nd ascension (too high variance to show much other than that after
the 1st ascension, rates _skyrocket_):
19.29 Val
13.30 Bar
8.51 Sam
6.07 Kni
4.27 Mon
4.19 Tou
3.97 Wiz
3.73 Cav
3.06 Pri
2.87 Rog
2.68 Hea
2.62 Ran
2.09 Arc

From 3rd to 10th ascension:
18.22 Val
16.83 Bar
13.69 Sam
11.18 Kni
10.38 Cav
7.39 Ran
6.29 Hea
6.16 Mon
6.13 Rog
6.03 Pri
5.96 Tou
5.19 Wiz
3.33 Arc

For 10th-20th ascensions:
23.78 Sam
21.03 Val
18.12 Cav
17.11 Bar
16.90 Kni
14.29 Tou
13.46 Ran
13.12 Pri
11.95 Hea
10.40 Rog
8.04 Wiz
7.97 Arc
7.74 Mon

For 20+th ascensions:
36.36 Ran
33.19 Val
33.16 Kni
31.94 Bar
31.47 Cav
30.14 Mon
24.90 Rog
23.57 Hea
22.01 Pri
21.71 Tou
20.99 Sam
19.29 Arc
12.39 Wiz


Top 4 other roles by asc% for players whose best asc% is for the first
role:
Arc Sam 28.92% Val 25.15% Bar 24.14% Kni 18.75%
Bar Cav 16.89% Kni 16.75% Val 16.49% Sam 16.01%
Cav Val 35.50% Sam 32.07% Ran 27.59% Bar 26.67%
Hea Kni 37.76% Ran 36.80% Cav 35.78% Val 32.64%
Kni Val 16.47% Bar 13.46% Cav 12.46% Sam 11.02%
Mon Val 27.94% Bar 24.49% Sam 21.43% Ran 15.67%
Pri Bar 42.19% Cav 35.19% Val 34.29% Sam 22.79%
Ran Cav 30.30% Bar 22.84% Val 21.13% Sam 20.97%
Rog Val 25.23% Bar 25.00% Sam 16.30% Cav 14.95%
Sam Val 23.76% Bar 20.94% Kni 13.84% Ran 13.73%
Tou Val 25.71% Bar 24.11% Sam 19.18% Ran 13.74%
Val Cav 11.72% Kni 11.35% Bar 11.12% Sam 9.97%
Wiz Cav 25.68% Val 20.42% Bar 20.00% Sam 13.11%

Full table of all 13 (wrap-unfriendly):
Arc Sam 28.92% Val 25.15% Bar 24.14% Kni 18.75% Cav 16.00% Mon 11.19%
Hea 11.04% Wiz 9.23% Tou 7.75% Pri 7.56% Rog 7.25% Ran 6.90%

Bar Cav 16.89% Kni 16.75% Val 16.49% Sam 16.01% Ran 11.33% Mon 10.78%
Tou 9.32% Arc 9.04% Rog 8.67% Wiz 8.00% Hea 7.89% Pri 7.03%

Cav Val 35.50% Sam 32.07% Ran 27.59% Bar 26.67% Kni 21.17% Tou 17.90%
Hea 15.67% Mon 11.99% Wiz 11.85% Arc 11.43% Pri 11.37% Rog 11.26%

Hea Kni 37.76% Ran 36.80% Cav 35.78% Val 32.64% Sam 32.43% Bar 30.91%
Rog 28.47% Pri 23.15% Wiz 19.12% Tou 17.89% Mon 17.11% Arc 15.85%

Kni Val 16.47% Bar 13.46% Cav 12.46% Sam 11.02% Hea 7.75% Ran 7.72%
Tou 7.71% Pri 6.89% Arc 6.73% Wiz 5.96% Rog 5.67% Mon 4.86%

Mon Val 27.94% Bar 24.49% Sam 21.43% Ran 15.67% Cav 15.00% Kni 12.50%
Rog 9.55% Wiz 9.03% Tou 8.86% Pri 8.25% Hea 6.93% Arc 6.82%

Pri Bar 42.19% Cav 35.19% Val 34.29% Sam 22.79% Ran 21.65% Kni 21.57%
Mon 16.55% Hea 15.95% Rog 14.14% Wiz 13.40% Tou 12.50% Arc 8.90%

Ran Cav 30.30% Bar 22.84% Val 21.13% Sam 20.97% Hea 16.90% Kni 16.13%
Rog 13.73% Pri 13.73% Mon 13.67% Arc 10.92% Tou 9.84% Wiz 7.26%

Rog Val 25.23% Bar 25.00% Sam 16.30% Cav 14.95% Ran 10.34% Kni 9.82%
Hea 9.50% Mon 8.38% Pri 7.59% Wiz 7.29% Arc 4.91% Tou 4.50%

Sam Val 23.76% Bar 20.94% Kni 13.84% Ran 13.73% Cav 13.02% Rog 11.26%
Pri 9.34% Tou 9.30% Arc 9.23% Hea 8.71% Wiz 7.27% Mon 7.18%

Tou Val 25.71% Bar 24.11% Sam 19.18% Ran 13.74% Hea 10.81% Cav 10.27%
Kni 9.54% Arc 9.18% Rog 7.72% Mon 6.34% Pri 5.84% Wiz 5.44%

Val Cav 11.72% Kni 11.35% Bar 11.12% Sam 9.97% Ran 6.98% Pri 6.59% Hea
6.29% Tou 5.93% Rog 5.89% Mon 5.68% Wiz 3.73% Arc 2.51%

Wiz Cav 25.68% Val 20.42% Bar 20.00% Sam 13.11% Rog 11.54% Tou 9.33%
Kni 8.94% Pri 7.42% Ran 7.36% Hea 6.98% Mon 6.57% Arc 6.24%
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Derek Ray

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Since: Nov 12, 2007
Posts: 194



(Msg. 55) Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Role difficulty and number of ascensions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 2008-02-12, sjdevnull DeleteThis @yahoo.com <sjdevnull DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> [for all of these stats I'm going off only players with at least 3
> ascensions as I downloaded that data earlier and don't want to smack
> up NAO again. And again in this report I disregard all games before
> the player's first ascension]

Are you also discarding all quits and escapes?

--
Derek

Game info and change log: http://sporkhack.com
Beta Server: telnet://sporkhack.com
IRC: irc.freenode.net, #sporkhack
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Carl

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Since: Nov 01, 2007
Posts: 80



(Msg. 56) Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Role difficulty and number of ascensions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Feb 12, 2:07 pm, Janis Papanagnou <Janis_Papanag....DeleteThis@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> David Damerell wrote:
> > Quoting  Doug Freyburger  <dfrey....DeleteThis@yahoo.com>:
> >>David Damerell <damer....DeleteThis@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> >>>Quoting =A0Jorge Estrada =A0<jestra....DeleteThis@web.de>:
> >>>>What is an alpine ascension?
>
> >>>It's never really been formalised, but the idea was no unnecessary
> >>>backtracking up/downstairs, so no stashes, etc.
>
> >>Maybe a speed ascension, maybe just careful on each
> >>level with minimum visits per level.
>
> > It's quite difficult to formalise because of the possibility of
> > uncontrolled levelport / multiple level trapdoor incidents. One could say
> > "you lose if that happens", but the idea is to have fun.
>
> Yes, it's indeed difficult. And as I like things non-complicated I find a
> variant of the wording based on "strictly increasing/decreasing" - which
> is inappropriate anyway considering the traps and level teleporters - more
> appealing; I'd formulate that variant as:
>
> "Any level that has N stairs+portals may be entered at most N times."
> (With the apparent corner case of Astral, and the necessity to consider
> the Wizard Tower as a separate level within the surrounding level.)
>
> > [...] I believe, from a
> > quick skim of the source, that a levelport from a branch may place you in
> > the branch or in any higher level in the parent branch. If that's wrong,
> > let me know...
>
> I _think_ that's true for the Mines and maybe Sokoban, and untrue for the
> Quest and Ludios and maybe Vlad, for example.
>
> Janis

Why not just use Harold Hill's "Stupid Ascension Trick" 35.3.2 for the
Alpine Ascension? It's pretty simply stated and yet seems thorough
enough. Quoted here for reference:
35.3.2 Never moved away from any staircase (> or <) or portal (^) more
than once before picking up the Amulet, and once after picking up the
Amulet. This means no back-tracking to supply dumps or to the Quest
Portal because you weren't Elvl 14 yet. (If you stumble into the Quest
Portal early, don't step away from it, just #sit until you 'port
back). (Alpine conduct). Patience: Moderate Luck: Trivial Planning:
Trivial
http://www.thinksystem.net/nethack/

--
Carl
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David Damerell

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Since: Apr 06, 2005
Posts: 1031



(Msg. 57) Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Role difficulty and number of ascensions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Quoting Doug Freyburger <dfreybur.DeleteThis@yahoo.com>:
>David Damerell <damer....DeleteThis@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>Quoting =A0Jorge Estrada =A0<jestra....DeleteThis@web.de>:
>>>What is an alpine ascension?
>>It's never really been formalised, but the idea was no unnecessary
>>backtracking up/downstairs, so no stashes, etc.
>Maybe a speed ascension, maybe just careful on each
>level with minimum visits per level.

It's quite difficult to formalise because of the possibility of
uncontrolled levelport / multiple level trapdoor incidents. One could say
"you lose if that happens", but the idea is to have fun.

Here's a first attempt at formalising Alpine, with two flavours of
harshness. It's a bit wordy because of the ugly cases for missing
invocation artifacts and level teleport around non-optional branches.

First of all - Dylan still hasn't released traps-341. I believe, from a
quick skim of the source, that a levelport from a branch may place you in
the branch or in any higher level in the parent branch. If that's wrong,
let me know...

You are always moving upwards or downwards. You may only take
stairs/ladders etc which lead in the appropriate direction.

You may not deliberately level teleport except to a level which you would
be permitted to move to via stairs/ladder/etc, or to the current level.
This includes hitting a known levelport trap.

If you hit an already known trapdoor or hole while moving upwards, you
lose the conduct. If you hit one while moving downwards, you lose if that
causes you to miss a necessary level.

If you read an unknown scroll and it level teleports you, you lose. You
are recommended to take precautions against this - price-ID, avoid reading
unknown buc-status scrolls, etc.

If you hit an unknown levelport trap, trapdoor, or hole, that's OK. You
may be permitted to switch direction in the rules below. You can
re-examine levels which this leaves you revisiting, and attempt an optional
branch which you did not attempt before.

Optional branches may be attempted only once. When you rejoin the main
dungeon after the direction switch at the bottom of the branch, you revert
to travel in the main dungeon. If you are levelported out of the branch
before you have reversed direction, you revert to travel in the main
dungeon - _if_ that causes you to pass the entrance to the branch, you may
reenter it, even if that is much later in the game.

Non-optional branches are different. You must work out the precise range
where the branch can occur in your current game. You must search every
possible level for the branch as far as is necessary to establish it is
not present before moving to the next level. You must enter a non-optional
branch, when you have found the entrance, before making any other level
transition voluntarily. If it turns out you missed a branch entrance
through inadequate searching and left the level with it on voluntarily,
you lose.

If you are involuntarily moved between levels such that you move out of
the range, you switch to travelling back towards the range and search it
from the end you enter it at. This includes cases where you are moved
entirely past a range you had not yet entered. If you are moved between
levels in the range to an already-searched level, you move back to the
level being searched. If you are moved to an unsearched level in the
range, you search it and may select a direction of travel provided that
that direction contains some unsearched levels. If you, as a result of
an earlier involuntary level transition, have no unsearched levels in
your current direction of travel and some unsearched levels in the
opposite direction, you reverse direction. Most of these conditions won't
come up unless you have infernal luck with level teleporters.

Invocation artifact search procedure: if a monster appears to have left
the level with the Bell, Book, Candelabrum, or Amulet, and you still need
that item to finish the game, you change to this procedure. Exception; if
the monster got the item because you dropped it voluntarily, you lose.

If you are in a non-optional branch and have not yet reversed direction
and the missing item is not the item pertinent to this branch, you first
proceed to the branch's pertinent item as normal.

You _must_ use telepathy, detect monsters, or some other 100% reliable method
to show the monster has left the current level. If you do not know which
monster has it, you should kill or otherwise examine the inventories of all
possible monsters; this is not compulsory, but if you don't do this to a
monster which later proves to have the item, you lose. You continue
travelling in the current branch, reversing direction only at the end of
the branch. When you have examined every level in the current branch, you
must exit the branch into the main dungeon (or perhaps you are there
already), using the direction of travel when you entered the branch as
your current direction.

You may bounce up and down the main dungeon multiple times, provided that
you are satisfying the "telepathy" and "kill all possibles" criteria for
each level you enter. You may enter a branch to search it, including the
branch you started in, but if the item does not prove to be in that
branch, you lose.

Working from the Gazetteer:

Start the game travelling downwards.

Mines: if you spot a level with two downstairs, you may attempt the Mines.
Less harsh; you can "peek" down one set of stairs and return. More harsh;
take pot luck.

When in the Mines, you are travelling downwards. You switch to upwards
travel as soon as you reach the bottom level. The preplaced level
teleporters in the Catacombs do not count as "known" traps for the
purpose of the rules above, but since you will be moving upwards when you
hit one, you'd best try and avoid them.

Sokoban: if you spot a level with 2 upstairs, you may attempt Sokoban. You
cannot "peek", since you know which staircase is involved.

When in Sokoban, you are travelling upwards. You switch to downwards
travel as soon as you reach the top level.

The Quest. Searching a level for the branch is trivial. More harsh; you
must wait on the Quest level until you qualify. If you are involuntarily
moved off it, return to it in the appropriate direction. Less harsh; the
Quest branch does not exist until you are level 14. You continue in the
main dungeon, but as soon as you reach XL 14, you proceed to the Quest and
must do it immediately.

If you hit the Quest portal accidentally while not qualified to do the
Quest, you must exit immediately. You may not purposefully enter the Quest
when unqualified. You reverse direction in the Quest when you pick up the
Bell.

Fort Ludious is a one-level optional branch, which means you may enter and
leave it only once.

Vlad's is a non-optional branch. You switch to downwards travel as soon as
you pick up the Candelabrum.

The Wizard's Tower is a non-optional branch. You switch to downwards
travel as soon as you pick up the Book of the Dead.

If you have not yet found either of Vlad's or the Wizard's Tower, the
range from the 9th to the 18th level of Gehennom counts as _one_
non-optional branch range.

The Planes are already inherently Alpine.
--
David Damerell <damerell.DeleteThis@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is First Saturday, February - a weekend.
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funcrunch

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Since: Nov 16, 2007
Posts: 50



(Msg. 58) Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Role difficulty and number of ascensions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Feb 12, 10:48 am, "sjdevn...@yahoo.com" <sjdevn....RemoveThis@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Oh, yeah, if you eliminate all the games before people's first
> ascensions (the screwing around and learning phase)

I don't know how accurate this statement is; for example, I had been
playing Nethack for 14 years before I played my first game on NAO, so
my "screwing around and learning phase" was mostly handled offline.
(Though I did have a couple of early quits while I was adjusting my
options and terminal settings.) Of course, NAO could be rife with
newbies and I could just be the exception...

- funcrunch
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sjdevnull

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Since: Aug 24, 2005
Posts: 275



(Msg. 59) Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Role difficulty and number of ascensions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Feb 12, 10:49 pm, funcrunch <web-goog....TakeThisOut@funcrunch.org> wrote:
> On Feb 12, 10:48 am, "sjdevn...@yahoo.com" <sjdevn....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Oh, yeah, if you eliminate all the games before people's first
> > ascensions (the screwing around and learning phase)
>
> I don't know how accurate this statement is; for example, I had been
> playing Nethack for 14 years before I played my first game on NAO, so
> my "screwing around and learning phase" was mostly handled offline.
> (Though I did have a couple of early quits while I was adjusting my
> options and terminal settings.) Of course, NAO could be rife with
> newbies and I could just be the exception...
>
Worst case you throw out one of several ascensions, and for a lot of
players you throw out tons of junk--and there's no real way to tell
which is which. The numbers for up to and including first ascension
are dramatically different from everything else. I posted breakdowns
for 1st, 2nd, 3-9th, 10-19th, and 20th+ ascensions in the most recent
stats breakdown so you can take a peek.

But its about 50 games on average before 1st asc, compared to say 26
from 1-2, 22 2-3, 23 3-4, etc. It really looks best to throw those
out if you're looking for stats by decent players, since there are
enough people learning on the fly to skew things and I don't have an
easy well to tell who's in which category.
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Janis Papanagnou

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Since: Aug 11, 2004
Posts: 853



(Msg. 60) Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Role difficulty and number of ascensions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

David Damerell wrote:
> Quoting Doug Freyburger <dfreybur RemoveThis @yahoo.com>:
>>David Damerell <damer... RemoveThis @chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>Quoting =A0Jorge Estrada =A0<jestra... RemoveThis @web.de>:
>>>>What is an alpine ascension?
>>>
>>>It's never really been formalised, but the idea was no unnecessary
>>>backtracking up/downstairs, so no stashes, etc.
>>
>>Maybe a speed ascension, maybe just careful on each
>>level with minimum visits per level.
>
> It's quite difficult to formalise because of the possibility of
> uncontrolled levelport / multiple level trapdoor incidents. One could say
> "you lose if that happens", but the idea is to have fun.

Yes, it's indeed difficult. And as I like things non-complicated I find a
variant of the wording based on "strictly increasing/decreasing" - which
is inappropriate anyway considering the traps and level teleporters - more
appealing; I'd formulate that variant as:

"Any level that has N stairs+portals may be entered at most N times."
(With the apparent corner case of Astral, and the necessity to consider
the Wizard Tower as a separate level within the surrounding level.)


> [...] I believe, from a
> quick skim of the source, that a levelport from a branch may place you in
> the branch or in any higher level in the parent branch. If that's wrong,
> let me know...

I _think_ that's true for the Mines and maybe Sokoban, and untrue for the
Quest and Ludios and maybe Vlad, for example.

Janis
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