new and upcoming

"Wylie" <wylie72.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:aa26cf53-47d5-495f-be21-893ac1263f64@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> That's a problem with GURPS, no D20's to fling at people. A D6 is
> just not the same...
>
> -wylie

That only tells me that you don't run with the right D6... I have seen many
heavy damage D6s in the past... good chunk of metal... also damaged tables!

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GURPS game info...
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Peter Knutsen <peter.TakeThisOut@sagatafl.invalid> writes:

> Ben Finney wrote:
> > That sounds like a case that SJG would be interested in pursuing.
> > I recall they've been quite vocal that if you can't get SJG stock
> > from your local game store, they want to speak with the
> > distributor about it.
>
> How long ago were they quite vocal about the issue? If it was
> several years ago, their real stance on the issue might have
> changed.

Anything's possible. The person best placed to find out would be the
person with the complaint, i.e. the one who wants SJG stock through
their FLGS but isn't getting it.

--
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`\ |
_o__) |
Ben Finney
 >> Stay informed about: new and upcoming 

>>>>> "BF" == Ben Finney <bignose+hates-spam@benfinney.id.au> writes:

BF> Obviously we'd all like more good stuff from SJ Games. But
BF> every decision to do one thing is also a decision to *not*
BF> spend that same effort on countless other things one could
BF> have done with it. What, in your assessment, should SJ Games
BF> *not* spend their efforts on in order to have the resources
BF> available to do what you ask for?

Munchkin. I tried it when it first came out, laughed at the joke, and
that was good enough for me.

Of course, the mass of game buyers doesn't agree with me - and it's
hard to argue that SJG should take resources against things that are
just this side of printing money to work on things that don't get them
nearly that return on investment.

Charlton


--
Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur.RemoveThis@chromatico.net
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>>>>> "BF" == Ben Finney <bignose+hates-spam@benfinney.id.au> writes:

BF> The irony is that in response to "PDFs r teh suxx" comments,
BF> SJ Games (again, quite reasonably) point out that if a PDF
BF> sells well, they're more likely to release it as a short-run
BF> hard copy. This, too, is no good to me, because if I pay for
BF> the PDF and *then* pay again for the hard copy when it
BF> eventually comes out, it's obviously more expensive than just
BF> buying the hard copy which is all I actually want anyway.

Seconded. The content in the PDFs is extremely high-quality, but I
want to buy my books as physical objects, not as electronic downloads.
So I have to choose - do I buy the PDF and print it myself, or do I
wait and hope it comes out as a POD? Thus far, buying the PDF and
printing it myself seems to have a causal relationship with SJG
deciding to release a POD. And this *does* tick me off.

I'm hoping for POD technology to advance quickly to the point where
SJG can offer their entire e23 catalog as either POD or PDF download.
Until then, I doubt I'm going to be buying any more PDFs.

Charlton



--
Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur RemoveThis @chromatico.net
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"Charlton Wilbur" <cwilbur.TakeThisOut@chromatico.net> wrote in message
news:87odap5mty.fsf@mithril.chromatico.net...
>>>>>> "BF" == Ben Finney <bignose+hates-spam@benfinney.id.au> writes:
>
> BF> The irony is that in response to "PDFs r teh suxx" comments,
> BF> SJ Games (again, quite reasonably) point out that if a PDF
> BF> sells well, they're more likely to release it as a short-run
> BF> hard copy. This, too, is no good to me, because if I pay for
> BF> the PDF and *then* pay again for the hard copy when it
> BF> eventually comes out, it's obviously more expensive than just
> BF> buying the hard copy which is all I actually want anyway.
>
> Seconded. The content in the PDFs is extremely high-quality, but I
> want to buy my books as physical objects, not as electronic downloads.
> So I have to choose - do I buy the PDF and print it myself, or do I
> wait and hope it comes out as a POD? Thus far, buying the PDF and
> printing it myself seems to have a causal relationship with SJG
> deciding to release a POD. And this *does* tick me off.
>
> I'm hoping for POD technology to advance quickly to the point where
> SJG can offer their entire e23 catalog as either POD or PDF download.
> Until then, I doubt I'm going to be buying any more PDFs.



I'm at a loss about PDF buying too, because the stuff I buy seems to be the
stuff that turns up as POD books anyway, so should I wait and hope a PDF
that I like the look of eventually becomes a POD and then get it (and then
pay even more because as a UK customer it's much more expensive to get
them), or just get the PDF and give up on the professionally produced
tactile book I'd much prefer to have, especially as a GURPS completist?

It's be nice if having bought the PDF gave some form of discount on the POD,
but whether this would be a viable business move I have no idea.

Alternatively, maybe SJG could consider produce a 'All Stars' style hardback
annually with a selection of the best selling PDFs in them?


--

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Tim Pollard
www.timpollard.com

"Bond 22 is now called 'QoS', you say? I didn't know he even spoke
Klingon..."
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Tim Pollard wrote:
> "Charlton Wilbur" <cwilbur.RemoveThis@chromatico.net> wrote in message
> news:87odap5mty.fsf@mithril.chromatico.net...
>> Seconded. The content in the PDFs is extremely high-quality, but I
>> want to buy my books as physical objects, not as electronic downloads.
>> So I have to choose - do I buy the PDF and print it myself, or do I
>> wait and hope it comes out as a POD? Thus far, buying the PDF and
>> printing it myself seems to have a causal relationship with SJG
>> deciding to release a POD. And this *does* tick me off.
> I'm at a loss about PDF buying too, because the stuff I buy seems to be the
> stuff that turns up as POD books anyway, so should I wait and hope a PDF
> that I like the look of eventually becomes a POD and then get it (and then
> pay even more because as a UK customer it's much more expensive to get
> them), or just get the PDF and give up on the professionally produced
> tactile book I'd much prefer to have, especially as a GURPS completist?

It sounds like everybody else who wants a POD ought to pay you two guys
to buy the PDF. There must be a GURPS disadvantage for this.
 >> Stay informed about: new and upcoming 

- hi; in rgfg article, <47a2fb81$0$89172$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>,
peter DeleteThis @sagatafl.invalid "Peter Knutsen" asked:
> Ben Finney wrote:
>> David Johnston <david DeleteThis @block.net> writes:
>>>
>>>My game store couldn't or wouldn't. They dealt with a distributor
>>>with a distinct lack of commitment to GURPS.
>>
>>That sounds like a case that SJG would be interested in pursuing. I
>>recall they've been quite vocal that if you can't get SJG stock from
>>your local game store, they want to speak with the distributor about
>>it.
>
>How long ago were they quite vocal about the issue? If it was several
>years ago, their real stance on the issue might have changed.
>
- sales of gurps titles've nose-dived since shortly after
the original few 4th edition books came out - leastways,
they have for me - but even so, it's hard to imagine any
good games wholesaler abandoning commercial contact with
sjg; if only to keep munchkin card game supplies flowing.

- if a games shop buyer doesn't know to ask - and go on
asking - their wholesalers for an in-print title for one
of their customers, or the wholesalers doesn't or won't
ask sjg to add it to their next stock/new releases ship-
ment, then there could be a problem - but i doubt very
much sjg'd refuse to add such a one-off to any decent-
size order, even if the games shop evinced no other in-
terest in gurps whatsoever.

- it could take a month or two for such a special order
to arrive, of course - but if the customer's happy with
this (or at least prepared to accept it), why not order
it for them?

- love, a ppint. happy to have even half a shop open again
[please drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g",
should you wish to cc. to, or email, me]
--
"...and then, because she's blonde, i thought, "we'll kill her.""
- lindsay davis, "book club"
on radio4, 16:20 bst 8/6/06 (6/8/06 for merkins)
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- hi; in rgfg article, <PcCrj.13816$xm6.10964@newsfe4-win.ntli.net>,
timpollard DeleteThis @yahoo.com "Tim Pollard" wondered, and wisted:
> "Charlton Wilbur" <cwilbur DeleteThis @chromatico.net> wrote
>>> Ben Finney <bignose+hates-spam@benfinney.id.au> writes:
>>
>>>SJ Games (again, quite reasonably) point out that if a PDF
>>>sells well, they're more likely to release it as a short-run
>>>hard copy. This, too, is no good to me, because if I pay for
>>>the PDF and *then* pay again for the hard copy when it
>>>eventually comes out, it's obviously more expensive than just
>>>buying the hard copy which is all I actually want anyway.

- hard copy, or hardcover? - because there doesn't seem
to be a great difference between pages printed out on
modern computer printers and those "short run" editions
i've seen so far (which look like good pod productions,
rather than traditionally printed and bound editions).
>>
>>Seconded. The content in the PDFs is extremely high-quality,
>>but I want to buy my books as physical objects, not as elec-
>>tronic downloads. So I have to choose - do I buy the PDF and
>>print it myself, or do I wait and hope it comes out as a POD?
>> Thus far, buying the PDF and printing it myself seems to have
>>a causal relationship with SJG deciding to release a POD. And
>>this *does* tick me off.
>>
>>I'm hoping for POD technology to advance quickly to the point
>>where SJG can offer their entire e23 catalog as either POD or
>>PDF download. Until then, I doubt I'm going to be buying any
>>more PDFs.
>
>I'm at a loss about PDF buying too, because the stuff I buy seems
>to be the stuff that turns up as POD books anyway, so should I
>wait and hope a PDF that I like the look of eventually becomes
>a POD and then get it (and then pay even more because as a UK
>customer it's much more expensive to get them), or just get the
>PDF and give up on the professionally produced tactile book I'd
>much prefer to have, especially as a GURPS completist?

- assuming you're not being bugged by the sjg editorial
and production team in order to achieve this effect, is
it that sjg're looking to publish real, "dead tree" ed-
itions of all their pdf publications; or rather that you
've so far happened to've chosen their most popular pdfs?

- if sjg make their short-run/pod titles available through
the hobby games wholesalers, every games shop *should* be
able - and happy - to supply them to their customers.
>
>It's be nice if having bought the PDF gave some form of discount
>on the POD, but whether this would be a viable business move I
>have no idea.

- as a business move, yes; but it might be rather more
complicated to administer, than sjg're prepared to con-
template: they'd have to keep records of customers and
their purchases, and attempt to keep them up to date
with changes of address - potentially for _decades_...
>
>Alternatively, maybe SJG could consider produce a 'All Stars'
>style hardback annually with a selection of the best selling PDFs
>in them?
>
- hmm; i've not been able to sell a single copy of the
_GURPS All Stars_ title i've stocked - which if it's
indicative of its sales generally, doesn't augur very
well for such a project.

- love, a ppint. happy to have even half a shop open again
[please drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g",
should you wish to cc. to, or email, me]
--
"never trust a man with shaved buttocks"
- jim darby, 2/9/96 (9/2/96 for merkins)
 >> Stay informed about: new and upcoming 

>>>>> "pp" == "ppint at pplay" <v> writes:

pp> - hard copy, or hardcover? - because there doesn't
pp> seem to be a great difference between pages printed out on
pp> modern computer printers and those "short run" editions i've
pp> seen so far (which look like good pod productions, rather than
pp> traditionally printed and bound editions).

Hard copy. Having to get a PDF printed and bound adds to its cost,
and depending on the print shop, can be a major annoyance, especially
if the copy shop employee thinks it may be a file-shared copy and
refuses to print and bind it.

pp> - assuming you're not being bugged by the sjg
pp> editorial and production team in order to achieve this effect,
pp> is it that sjg're looking to publish real, "dead tree" ed-
pp> itions of all their pdf publications; or rather that you 've
pp> so far happened to've chosen their most popular pdfs?

SJG are looking to publish dead tree editions of their most popular
PDF publications. They are not looking to publish dead tree editions
of *all* their PDF products, and have said as much.

The bind I'm in is that if I really really like a book and would buy
it if they printed it, the only way to signal that is to buy it in a
format I don't want and find a pain to use -- and then I get to pay
full price again for it when it comes out in physical form.

So my inclination is to wait as long as possible to see if SJG will
produce a physical product, which means the PDF gets one fewer sale,
which makes it less likely that it will reach their threshold of popularity.

pp> - hmm; i've not been able to sell a single copy of the
pp> _GURPS All Stars_ title i've stocked - which if it's
pp> indicative of its sales generally, doesn't augur very well for
pp> such a project.

From what I've observed, people buy things in genres they like and
(often) genres they play in. I liked GURPS All-Star Jam, because of
all the neat ideas in it; but I'm one of those freaks who frequently
buys game books solely to read.

And one of GURPS's perpetual weaknesses in the market is that it
offers you everything you need to put together a game, but expects you
to actually assemble them yourself. Other systems hand you all the
pieces you need, assemble them for you, and give you a narrative to
start playing with. (As an example: people playing Vampire know what
the game is about and what characters are expected to do. People
playing D&D know what the game is about and what characters are
expected to do. People playing GURPS are at a loss, because the GM
and players get to decide collectively for each campaign what the
characters are expected to do. That lack of imposed structure is a
spur to creativity for some, and a terrifying lack of guidance for others.

This is, I think, why Transhuman Space and WWII have such problems as
lines: there's everything in them that you might need to run a game in
that setting, and dozens of possible games you could play; but there's
no expected narrative -- although WWII has a lot of fictional
backgrounds that can be borrowed. It's also why GURPS Dungeon Fantasy
is doing so well. I like GURPS's toolkit nature, but I also recognize
that it has to have some pre-packaged prepared gaming material.

Charlton


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cwilbur DeleteThis @chromatico.net
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- hi; in rgrg article, <87k5lc63bd.fsf.TakeThisOut@mithril.chromatico.net>,
cwilbur.TakeThisOut@chromatico.net "Charlton Wilbur" observed:
> "ppint at pplay" <v> writes:
>
>> - hard copy, or hardcover? - because there doesn't seem
>> to be a great difference between pages printed out on
>> modern computer printers and those "short run" editions
>> i've seen so far (which look like good pod productions,
>> rather than traditionally printed and bound editions).
>
>Hard copy. Having to get a PDF printed and bound adds to its cost,
>and depending on the print shop, can be a major annoyance, especially
>if the copy shop employee thinks it may be a file-shared copy and
>refuses to print and bind it.

- i've not met this, though i've heard someone else say
similar wrt a fanzine they'd produced, that the merkin
copy bureau wouldn't believe wasn't pirated; but you can
achieve _very_ near professional standards of so-called
"perfect binding" using pva glue together with a backing
strip, holding the trued-up pages in a vice whilst the
glue goes off, and adding your desired card/board-plus-
fabric/[whatever] covers afterwards.
>
> pp> - assuming you're not being bugged by the sjg
> pp> editorial and production team in order to achieve this effect,
> pp> is it that sjg're looking to publish real, "dead tree" ed-
> pp> itions of all their pdf publications; or rather that you 've
> pp> so far happened to've chosen their most popular pdfs?
>
>SJG are looking to publish dead tree editions of their most popular
>PDF publications. They are not looking to publish dead tree editions
>of *all* their PDF products, and have said as much.
>
>The bind I'm in is that if I really really like a book and would buy
>it if they printed it, the only way to signal that is to buy it in a
>format I don't want and find a pain to use -- and then I get to pay
>full price again for it when it comes out in physical form.
>
>So my inclination is to wait as long as possible to see if SJG will
>produce a physical product, which means the PDF gets one fewer sale,
>which makes it less likely that it will reach their threshold of
>popularity.

- by one; this is unlikely to affect their decision -
so long as you keep quiet about it, and don't risk
starting a world-wide tendency to wait-and-see...
>
>> - hmm; i've not been able to sell a single copy of the
>> GURPS All Stars_ title i've stocked - which if it's
>> indicative of its sales generally, doesn't augur very
>> well for such a project.
>
>From what I've observed, people buy things in genres they like and
>(often) genres they play in. I liked GURPS All-Star Jam, because of
>all the neat ideas in it; but I'm one of those freaks who frequently
>buys game books solely to read.

- you're not the only one; but the format of the all-
star jam means that most gms are unlikely to be very
interested in most of the contents, does it not?
>
>And one of GURPS's perpetual weaknesses in the market is that it
>offers you everything you need to put together a game, but expects
>you to actually assemble them yourself. Other systems hand you all
>the pieces you need, assemble them for you, and give you a narrative
>to start playing with.
[snip counter-example rpgs]
>People playing GURPS are at a loss, because the GM and players get
>to decide collectively for each campaign what the characters are
>expected to do. That lack of imposed structure is a spur to creat-
>ivity for some, and a terrifying lack of guidance for others.

- yup; gurps is very much an rpg i recommend to [some]
experienced gms looking to expand the range of games
they run, rather than an rpg for learners.
>
>This is, I think, why Transhuman Space and WWII have such problems
>as lines: there's everything in them that you might need to run a
>game in that setting, and dozens of possible games you could play;
>but there's no expected narrative -- although WWII has a lot of
>fictional backgrounds that can be borrowed.

- i've no gms interested in historical games per se;
if you exclude call of cthulhu, there never have been
many here: just a couple for vampire & mage dark ages,
a couple for ars magica, one victoriana, and half a
dozen or so space 1889 - oh, and several for 7th seas,
and legend of the 5 rings, and a couple for pendragon.
more than i thought, then; but that's spread out over
twenty years. and they're (almost) all fantasy/sf games
that happen to have a more-or-less historical setting,
rather than historical-for-the-sake-of history.

>It's also why GURPS Dungeon Fantasy is doing so well. I like
>GURPS's toolkit nature, but I also recognize that it has to have
>some pre-packaged prepared gaming material.
>
- i think "what gurps needs" is to include enough of
the core gurps system in what could be termed "core
settings" books, for them to be playable straight off
(i'm not sure that "gurps lite" is quite enough for
all such books without modifications, but something
along those lines), together with at least one truly
ready-to-run starter adventure(let), with suggestions
of how to continue after it's been run.

- love, a ppint. happy to have even half a shop open again
[please drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g",
should you wish to cc. to, or email, me]
--
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- tamar on afp, 16/10/98 (10/16/98 for merkins)
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>>>>> "p" == "ppint at pplay" <v> writes:

(quoting me)

>> Hard copy. Having to get a PDF printed and bound adds to its
>> cost, and depending on the print shop, can be a major
>> annoyance, especially if the copy shop employee thinks it may
>> be a file-shared copy and refuses to print and bind it.

p> - i've not met this, though i've heard someone else say
p> similar wrt a fanzine they'd produced, that the merkin copy
p> bureau wouldn't believe wasn't pirated;

I run into it every time I run into a new employee at the copy shop.
Or, rather, the only times I don't run into it are when I get to deal
with an employee I've already gone through the wrangle with.

p> but you can achieve _very_ near professional standards of
p> so-called "perfect binding" using pva glue together with a
p> backing strip, holding the trued-up pages in a vice whilst the
p> glue goes off, and adding your desired card/board-plus-
p> fabric/[whatever] covers afterwards.

Probably. But this is why I pay more for printed books than for PDFs:
so that someone else can go to the trouble of printing and binding
them, most likely in an assembly line so that they benefit from
economies of scale.

p> - you're not the only one; but the format of the all- star jam
p> means that most gms are unlikely to be very interested in most
p> of the contents, does it not?

Right. All of them were interesting to read, but I don't think more
than one or two made me think "hm, that might be fun to play," and the
fact that I can't remember what they are now suggests that they didn't
make that much of an impression.

p> - yup; gurps is very much an rpg i recommend to [some]
p> experienced gms looking to expand the range of games they run,
p> rather than an rpg for learners.

It can work as an RPG for learners, but not for a group of learners.
I've seen very good results with groups of players with mixed
experience levels but involving an experienced GM.

p> - i've no gms interested in historical games per se; if you
p> exclude call of cthulhu, there never have been many here: just
p> a couple for vampire & mage dark ages, a couple for ars magica,
p> one victoriana, and half a dozen or so space 1889 - oh, and
p> several for 7th seas, and legend of the 5 rings, and a couple
p> for pendragon. more than i thought, then; but that's spread
p> out over twenty years. and they're (almost) all fantasy/sf
p> games that happen to have a more-or-less historical setting,
p> rather than historical-for-the-sake-of history.

That's what I've seen here, too; I've tried running historical games
at conventions, and they always seem to fall flat. The only exception
is a GURPS Infinite Worlds scenario I wrote, set during the Reign of
Terror -- and that one only works if I spin it as "near-future people
playing high-tech spy games in Revolutionary France -- no history
knowledge required!"

This was one of the things that scared me about the Fourth Edition: it
was clear that historical gaming just didn't interest enough people to
make preserving GURPS's strength at historical games a high priority;
but when the books actually came out, none of the changes broke GURPS
for historical high-realism games.

p> - i think "what gurps needs" is to include enough of the core
p> gurps system in what could be termed "core settings" books, for
p> them to be playable straight off (i'm not sure that "gurps
p> lite" is quite enough for all such books without modifications,
p> but something along those lines), together with at least one
p> truly ready-to-run starter adventure(let), with suggestions of
p> how to continue after it's been run.

Third edition GURPS Lite was sufficient, I think, for those books it
was included in; fourth edition GURPS Lite is enough to give a taste
of the system but leaves out too much.

But I think the significant word there is "books." GURPS needs more
*books*, because that's how GURPS gets noticed. e23 is a fantastic
resource, but it's not going to get more people into GURPS, because
the only way you discover it in the first place is if you've picked up
a GURPS book and liked it enough to check out the "further resources"
page. And that's even assuming they're not old curmudgeons like me
who want printed books in the first place.

Charlton




--
Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur RemoveThis @chromatico.net
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On 10 Feb 2008 01:41:59 -0500, Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur DeleteThis @chromatico.net> wrote:
> BF> Obviously we'd all like more good stuff from SJ Games. But
> BF> every decision to do one thing is also a decision to *not*
> BF> spend that same effort on countless other things one could
> BF> have done with it. What, in your assessment, should SJ Games
> BF> *not* spend their efforts on in order to have the resources
> BF> available to do what you ask for?
>
>Munchkin. I tried it when it first came out, laughed at the joke, and
>that was good enough for me.

I like Munchkin more than that (I play it with my son, and we've gotten
our money's worth out of the expansions that we have), but I'd rather have
more GURPS, too.

>Of course, the mass of game buyers doesn't agree with me - and it's
>hard to argue that SJG should take resources against things that are
>just this side of printing money to work on things that don't get them
>nearly that return on investment.

Yeah, financially, Munchkin is the way to go -- isn't it already
subsidising GURPS? I just hope the situation they're in (not a publicly
held company) lets them keep putting out GURPS even if it's losing them a
little money...
--
chuk
 >> Stay informed about: new and upcoming 

>>>>> "CG" == Chuk Goodin <cgoodin.TakeThisOut@sfu.ca> writes:

CG> Yeah, financially, Munchkin is the way to go -- isn't it
CG> already subsidising GURPS? I just hope the situation they're
CG> in (not a publicly held company) lets them keep putting out
CG> GURPS even if it's losing them a little money...

The impression I get is that they really *want* to put out more GURPS,
but they're struggling with logistics for the books, and they're also
trying to strike while the Munchkin iron is hot.

Based on some of the stuff they've said on the forums, they're
juggling 3 or 4 book projects *now*, and they're going to announce
them (as per usual) only when they're close enough to the shipping
date to be sure of meeting it.

Charlton



--
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