Bug: Prison Camps

On Dec 5, 7:44 pm, rumata <mmoser....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 6, 11:04 am, "Black No.1" <keineahnung....DeleteThis@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "rumata" <mmoser....DeleteThis@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitragnews:a2f41e89-76f3-4a55-adff-0ca951fe7b50@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> > > Limiting "windfalls" _may_ be needed, then again, I wouldn't call it a
> > > windfall if e.g. an EE manages to take over a HW by turn 7. Possibly
> > > the gains from that need to be toned down, but not to the level other
> > > races would get, since the EE _do_ have _real_ disadvantages (growth-
> > > rate being the big one).
> > > In general, I think most people playing this game concentrate far too
> > > much on what the other races could possibly do to them, instead of
> > > using their own race's strengths to inflict maximum pain to others
>
> > > Cheers,
> > > Michael
>
> > Sure I think we all agree that EE needs money and should get it - but with
> > the current rules they don't even need to capture a hw to break the game.
> > So that's surely over the top.
>
> Does it happen often?
>
> All these "what if scenarios" mostly concentrate on one factor, in
> this case (using your numbers from above): The EE makes 4times (labor
> mines) or 8 times (lizard slaves) more money from prisoners than other
> races. That ignores that the EE also has to invest 4 times what the
> labor mine race has to invest (and the Lizards invest 0). For an EE
> who tries to pour everything into Star destroyers and bots or
> training, the needed 8000mc and 4000 supplies are a _big_ chunk of
> resources.
>
> And once he's pulled it off and is earning big bucks, he needs to
> build ships and bring them to the next target (with short range
> hypedrives).
> This is going to take time.
> Imho enough time to allow a few people to have grav defences. And no
> matter how much money an EE has, fighting e.g. the Borg is going to be
> a painful (and probably futile ) exercise for him.
>
> Which brings me back to my first question, does it happen often? Is
> the Empire winning games left right and center? With no early drops
> and evenly matched players?
>
> Cheers,
> Michael

i dont like the idea brought up about global cap of 10k to money
making technologies.

however in the above example of the EE invading a grav defence race?
well its always been my impression that rarely happens, and ill tell
you why. because they usually dont bother the grav races unlessuntil a
couple things occur, 1) when there is obviously no non grav races to
go after remaining in the game. which is plenty to choose from. 2)
they see an early strike opportunity to take out a grav race before he
is fully defenseable. and 3) the grav races are usually saved for last
with some exceptions, close nieghbors. someone is aggressively
attacking the EE with a Grav race. and the reason is simple, they will
need lots of mine sweepers. and to build them. they EE usually feed on
the non grav races first. like IMT COM which have no minefields what
soever and then the other races like stormers who have minefields but
non grav defenses. after they are successfully prisonered.is usually
about the only time i see EE bother with the grav racces as they use
those non grav race prisoners in thier camps to mass produce and
finance the large numbers of sweepers they will use. givening them an
economic boost for prison camps is just sadly to much of deal to the
races who dont have grav mine defences.

which has always made me wonder why a hyper race was allowed to also
be a slaver race. things are just too easy for the EE versus non grav
races IMHO.

Proto
 >> Stay informed about: Bug: Prison Camps 

"rumata" <mmoser772 DeleteThis @gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:a2f41e89-76f3-4a55-adff-0ca951fe7b50@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 6, 1:31 am, Magik <rickglo... DeleteThis @paulhastings.com> wrote:
>> I am considering putting some code in place that will limit the income
>> generated from any single source to 10k mc per turn.
>
> I am opposed to any sort of hardcoded limits and stepfunctions. It
> makes it advantageous to operate close to that limit and hence
> increases micromanagement.
>
>
>> That would
>> affect Centaur Marketplace, Labor Camps/Mines, Gambling Deck, Pyramid
>> Lounge, etc. Do you think a blanket change like this would make
>> sense?
>
> Limiting any income that is based on one's own population one way or
> another strikes me as counterproductive. Economy is (and should) be an
> important part in this game. A sliding limit as Lord Lancelot
> suggested is also problematic, because it would be difficult to make
> it match all possible starting conditions and host-settings.
>
> Limiting "windfalls" _may_ be needed, then again, I wouldn't call it a
> windfall if e.g. an EE manages to take over a HW by turn 7. Possibly
> the gains from that need to be toned down, but not to the level other
> races would get, since the EE _do_ have _real_ disadvantages (growth-
> rate being the big one).
> In general, I think most people playing this game concentrate far too
> much on what the other races could possibly do to them, instead of
> using their own race's strengths to inflict maximum pain to others
>
> Cheers,
> Michael

Sure I think we all agree that EE needs money and should get it - but with
the current rules they don't even need to capture a hw to break the game.
So that's surely over the top.

Cheers,
Jochen
 >> Stay informed about: Bug: Prison Camps 

"protomatter" <protomatter.RemoveThis@buckeye-express.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:b321105e-ab7d-4b7f-ae6b-136aaadd9245@e4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

....
> however in the above example of the EE invading a grav defence race?
> well its always been my impression that rarely happens, and ill tell
> you why. because they usually dont bother the grav races unlessuntil a
> couple things occur, 1) when there is obviously no non grav races to
> go after remaining in the game. which is plenty to choose from. 2)
> they see an early strike opportunity to take out a grav race before he
> is fully defenseable. and 3) the grav races are usually saved for last
> with some exceptions, close nieghbors. someone is aggressively
> attacking the EE with a Grav race. and the reason is simple, they will
> need lots of mine sweepers. and to build them. they EE usually feed on
> the non grav races first. like IMT COM which have no minefields what
> soever and then the other races like stormers who have minefields but
> non grav defenses. after they are successfully prisonered.is usually
> about the only time i see EE bother with the grav racces as they use
> those non grav race prisoners in thier camps to mass produce and
> finance the large numbers of sweepers they will use. givening them an
> economic boost for prison camps is just sadly to much of deal to the
> races who dont have grav mine defences.
>
> which has always made me wonder why a hyper race was allowed to also
> be a slaver race. things are just too easy for the EE versus non grav
> races IMHO.
>
> Proto

Totally agreed. In most games there *are* players that aren't playing that good
and these are the top targets if nearby - especially if they have a hard time to
defend
against an early EE attack.

I know that there are a lot of players that don't play aggressively from the
start, but
if an EE player fails to do so, he can't blame anyone else but himself if he
looses the game.

Cheers,
Jochen
 >> Stay informed about: Bug: Prison Camps 

On Dec 6, 9:26 pm, "Black No.1" <keineahnung... DeleteThis @gmx.de> wrote:
> "protomatter" <protomat... DeleteThis @buckeye-express.com> schrieb im Newsbeitragnews:b321105e-ab7d-4b7f-ae6b-136aaadd9245@e4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> > which has always made me wonder why a hyper race was allowed to also
> > be a slaver race. things are just too easy for the EE versus non grav
> > races IMHO.
>
> > Proto
>
> Totally agreed. In most games there *are* players that aren't playing that good
> and these are the top targets if nearby - especially if they have a hard time to
> defend against an early EE attack.

Trying to achieve balance for games which are lopsided from the start
(different level of players), will break balance for games with evenly
match players. Then again, I don't care that much about balance to
begin with, I just don't see the EE as particularly overpowered, so I
guess we can agree to disagree

Cheers,
Michael
 >> Stay informed about: Bug: Prison Camps 

"rumata" <mmoser772.RemoveThis@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:4ea6c036-cf8e-4591-99fe-d62e37e8f61c@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 6, 9:26 pm, "Black No.1" <keineahnung....RemoveThis@gmx.de> wrote:
>> "protomatter" <protomat....RemoveThis@buckeye-express.com> schrieb im
>> Newsbeitragnews:b321105e-ab7d-4b7f-ae6b-136aaadd9245@e4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> > which has always made me wonder why a hyper race was allowed to also
>> > be a slaver race. things are just too easy for the EE versus non grav
>> > races IMHO.
>>
>> > Proto
>>
>> Totally agreed. In most games there *are* players that aren't playing that
>> good
>> and these are the top targets if nearby - especially if they have a hard time
>> to
>> defend against an early EE attack.
>
> Trying to achieve balance for games which are lopsided from the start
> (different level of players), will break balance for games with evenly
> match players. Then again, I don't care that much about balance to
> begin with, I just don't see the EE as particularly overpowered, so I
> guess we can agree to disagree
>
> Cheers,
> Michael

I don't want to cripple EE - just tone down the income to "sane" levels.
48.000 for a 100.000 colonists farming world is to much - maybe 15.000
(like labor camps + labor mines) or 18.000 (6x the normal lc money) but not
16x the money.

Btw. I think that there some are other races with game breaking potential, too
(like the 1000 hg for CoM or the Rebel Tranquility) and I would like to see them
cut back, too.

Cheers,
Jochen
 >> Stay informed about: Bug: Prison Camps 

There are many single sources of income that break the game. I am
participating in a game where the 5 Centaur Marketplaces are
generating 200kmc+ per turn per planet because there are 4 players on
the team and the team members are growing like mad. There is no way
that even the EE can beat the income generated from just that one set
of buildings. Yes, teams break the rules but that doesn't stop me
from wanting to help the rules from not being broken too far.

I could start off with what I see are the lowest hanging fruit, such
as EE labor camps, Centaur Marketplaces, Gambling Deck, and Metals
Exchange to make it so that they cannot produce more than 10kmc from
any one of them per turn. Yes, I can see where this would cause more
micromanagement. I will hopefully finish up some client code soon
that would greatly help with this.

Magik
 >> Stay informed about: Bug: Prison Camps 

> I could start off with what I see are the lowest hanging fruit, such
> as EE labor camps, Centaur Marketplaces, Gambling Deck, and Metals
> Exchange to make it so that they cannot produce more than 10kmc from
> any one of them per turn. Yes, I can see where this would cause more
> micromanagement. I will hopefully finish up some client code soon
> that would greatly help with this.
>
> Magik

I still don't like the idea of a hard cap, though a big Yes to toning
down the current fountains of wealth. Perhaps by applying non-linear
functions?

Phaidros
 >> Stay informed about: Bug: Prison Camps 

On Dec 9, 6:51 pm, Magik <rickglo... DeleteThis @paulhastings.com> wrote:
> There are many single sources of income that break the game. I am
> participating in a game where the 5 Centaur Marketplaces are
> generating 200kmc+ per turn per planet because there are 4 players on
> the team and the team members are growing like mad. There is no way
> that even the EE can beat the income generated from just that one set
> of buildings. Yes, teams break the rules but that doesn't stop me
> from wanting to help the rules from not being broken too far.
>
> I could start off with what I see are the lowest hanging fruit, such
> as EE labor camps, Centaur Marketplaces, Gambling Deck, and Metals
> Exchange to make it so that they cannot produce more than 10kmc from
> any one of them per turn. Yes, I can see where this would cause more
> micromanagement. I will hopefully finish up some client code soon
> that would greatly help with this.
>
> Magik

Team broke a LOT of thing, but they are far from being the standard
game, so please make fix that will limit ally income...

Please do not limit the Market place for non-team game.
Make a limit on ally income, market place should make a max income
from other race per turn FINE (any amount here I do not care), but no
limit the income from Centaur population witch is always very low
compared to other races.

10 K cap for EE is too low, reduce the income the labor camp make for
each camp instead, like proposed to 15-20mc, the EE should be able to
have at least the full income of 1000 camps per planet.
Another (better) way is to reduce the number of camp that can be build
from 10 000 camps per base to 1000 camp per base. If that step is
taken it should be all LC that have a limit of 1000 not just EE.
I also could live with a Max labor mine of 1000 per base also.

the 10 000 per base is what make the insane income.

Lord Lancelot
 >> Stay informed about: Bug: Prison Camps 

Why you guys want to fix something broken with a cap? It's a bad way
to doing it.

labor camp and labor mine working with 25% of their needed prisoner is
just completely insane.

You need 25k prisoners to run 1000 camp... cmnon, i 100% agree with
black.

I played Dracs and romulans under normal circumstances, one farm world
was enough to give me a 10 000 mc per turn. 1/4 of that means 4x time
the income ...

All that while avoiding the heavier death rate you get when having
above x number prisoners in camp since you are efectively reducing it
to 1/4 too.

It's way too powerful and a bad idea, camps should be 3 mc ( 12mc EE
labors) each and needing full prisoners. ( the latest being the only
fix to be made)
 >> Stay informed about: Bug: Prison Camps 

> I think it only fair to say I would like to
> see Scavs, Crystals, Solarians and Rebels toned down.

I agree that the Scav need a town down, they are IMO the race who need
it most. Solorians & Crystals could have a little one too, but I would
not touch the Rebel They are far from being overpowered played by
themself (no ally no hull plan / ship trading) they have a weak
middle / long term economy, free parts from natives is higly dependant
on the map and master setup, I see many games with only a few natives.

Lord Lancelot
 >> Stay informed about: Bug: Prison Camps 

1. Why not simply make EE camps have 4x the death rate too? So they
don't get much more money overall than any other labour camp owner, but
they get it in a shorter timeframe.

2. Every time a race lucks out or is played well, people say it's
overpowered. I've seen Stormers, Borg, EE etc all raise huge
controversies when they use their special powers well. The Stormer glory
device, for example, didn't use to have a limit on the number of amorphs
it could fry, but every time someone used it efficiently a hue and cry
broke out and it was scaled down about 3 times, to a point where it only
fries about 15k at a time now. Anyone who's ever tried to play the EE
will know that by late game their low warp speed is a killer as the
galaxy clogs up with grav mines, and capturing prisoners is REALLY hard
against half alert players. Borg have been emasculated to a shadow of
their fearsome VGAP3 potential - in VGAP3, the game often revolved
around "kill the Borg, then let's get on with the next phase of the
game". The Borg often won even so.

3. Here's an example. In Troubadour I, Lord Owl staggered me when his
Lizards captured 6 million Crystals, ie their homeworld. Mega mc. Game
over for the rest of us as he just steamrollered everyone else at that
point. But this was *good play* and the rest of us had similar
opportunities. Another example: I saw Stonetroll, playing EE in Civil /
Military Options, capture a few million prisoners - a few hundred thou
here, a few hundred thou there - in a series of excellently planned
attacks, only one on a homeworld (which captured nothing). He put a huge
amount of preparation into capturing these prisoners, he had to clear
grav mines and have exactly the right forces present to capture rather
than kill. It was *hard work* and I was very impressed (I've played EE
twice but never that effectively). He *deserved* the reward.

4. True, not every race has grav mines. That's why you ally with people
and swap devices. Rock scissors paper, remember?

5. Since several people here are moaning (unjustifiably in my opinion)
about already weak races, I think it only fair to say I would like to
see Scavs, Crystals, Solarians and Rebels toned down. Whereas other
races have to "work" for their money, these four high growth monsters
(most of which have massive bonus features like native dustoffs) allow
lazy players to win time after time with relatively little work. If
you're going to arbitrarily limit income on any planet to 10,000mc per
turn, please limit the income from taxes and cities thus too. That's
fair. It'll force these lazy players to spread their population out and
defend them against predators.

6. Although Robots win a lot too and are a massive growth race, I think
they're more balanced overall and can be countered effectively by a good
player. So I'm not calling for them to be toned down. (I've never played
them.)
--
Paul Honigmann
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On Dec 24, 2:03 am, KlingonKommand <P....RemoveThis@nurk.fnord> wrote:
> Magik <rickglo....RemoveThis@paulhastings.com> writes
>
> >I am considering putting some code in place that will limit the income
> >generated from any single source to 10k mc per turn.  That would
> >affect Centaur Marketplace, Labor Camps/Mines, Gambling Deck, Pyramid
> >Lounge, etc.  Do you think a blanket change like this would make
> >sense?
>
> I have been mulling this. It only makes sense if you apply it uniformly
> to ALL sources of income - contraband (gold pod) sales from carefully
> "grown" target enemy planets; Lizard prisoners; and particularly total
> income from cities / taxes, to put a similar brake on high growth races.

The problem with applying it to all sources is that different races
have a different number of sources available to them. The Rebels
might have 3, whereas the Bots may have 2 and then the Peeps have 5,
so whoever has the most 10k sources will be superior in a general
view. There are many other factors involved in the power of a race
assuming that they are all played by skilled players on their perfect
map against the perfect enemy. I've pretty much dismissed this idea,
but will attempt to make minor adjustments here and there as I see it
to help balance things out.

Magik
 >> Stay informed about: Bug: Prison Camps 

Interesting view, However, I'm not sure I understand why you think the
Rebs are balanced...

(a) It is very rare for players to have NO allies

(b) I have never seen a weak Rebel because, of course, they always play
native-rich setups (which was one of my responses to "labour camps are
overpowered" earlier in this thread: people play the EE in universes
where they think they'll win). As for weak long term economy, uh,
cantinas? Native taxes? High growth rate? Whenever I play a game with
Rebs they scoop 90% of the natives and turn into a monster no one dares
tackle!

Lord Lancelot writes
>> I think it only fair to say I would like to
>> see Scavs, Crystals, Solarians and Rebels toned down.
>
>I agree that the Scav need a town down, they are IMO the race who need
>it most. Solorians & Crystals could have a little one too, but I would
>not touch the Rebel They are far from being overpowered played by
>themself (no ally no hull plan / ship trading) they have a weak
>middle / long term economy, free parts from natives is higly dependant
>on the map and master setup, I see many games with only a few natives.
>
>Lord Lancelot
 >> Stay informed about: Bug: Prison Camps