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External
Since: May 07, 2006
Posts: 15
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(Msg. 16) Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Is the group officially dead? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: comp>sys>ibm>pc>games>flight-sim (more info?)
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"Jay Williams" <voodoo141bugoff RemoveThis @spamcox.net> wrote in message
news:GerQi.15329$5b2.13077@newsfe19.lga...
> Has everyone just delieted this or moved to online forums?
>
> Just wondering if the last batch of political drivel sounded the death
> knell of the group.
>
> If you're still around, how about sounding off...
>
> Years ago this was a vibrant, active newsgroup, but no more. Falcon 5
> could be released complete with a real F-16 for the first 100 purchasers
> and it wouldn't even get a notice here. It started to come back (on life
> support) but then the 2008 elections started and someone got his second
> wind.
I think the reason is there are so few flight sims being produced. This
is due to the fact that flight sims are just not being produced like they
used to be. That's because today the computer users who play games are into
RTS and FPS games. They want instant gratification, they have short
attention spans. Those types of games have an easy learning curve while a
really good and accurate flight sim would take a long time to play well.
Back in the mid-80s and early 90s, the people who had home computers
were usually intelligent and mostly nerdy. They could appreciate the complex
nature of simulators. Now everyone and their grandmother has a PC and most
of the people who play games are young kids who want the FPS and RTS games.
Companies can make a lot more on those games even though the game-buying
base is a lot bigger.
I don't know what can stimulate the flight sim genre again. I've gone
to playing space sims as I've played most of the terrestrial flight sims out
there.
John |
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External
Since: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4
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(Msg. 17) Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Is the group officially dead? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Oct 17, 4:23?pm, "John Slade" <hhitma....DeleteThis@pacbell.net> wrote:
> Back in the mid-80s and early 90s, the people who had home computers
> were usually intelligent and mostly nerdy. They could appreciate the complex
> nature of simulators. Now everyone and their grandmother has a PC and most
> of the people who play games are young kids who want the FPS and RTS games.
> Companies can make a lot more on those games even though the game-buying
> base is a lot bigger.
But the biggest and best sellers of the early 90's were so-called
light sims, like Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe, the Dynamix Aces
sims, the Microprose helo, prop and jet sims, and Falcon 3--sims
without a 300 page manual that managed to get a lot of the reality in
with the fun.
Poeple like Warren Spector were making sims that never forgot they
were entertainment as well as sim. You may think this was a bad thing,
that the simulation first last and always is the summit of the hobby.
It's also the death of it. |
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External
Since: Oct 15, 2007
Posts: 91
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(Msg. 18) Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:48 am
Post subject: Re: Is the group officially dead? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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tomcervo wrote:
> Poeple like Warren Spector were making sims that never forgot they
> were entertainment as well as sim. You may think this was a bad thing,
> that the simulation first last and always is the summit of the hobby.
> It's also the death of it.
>
Bollocks! There have been plenty of arcade flying games released over
the last few years and I don't see one person excited by them in any
flight sim forum. The death of flight sims is due to financial reasons
and no other. Stop trying to put the blame on us. >> Stay informed about: Is the group officially dead? |
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External
Since: May 07, 2006
Posts: 15
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(Msg. 19) Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:57 am
Post subject: Re: Is the group officially dead? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"tomcervo" <tomcervo.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1192678871.489524.3240@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 17, 4:23?pm, "John Slade" <hhitma....DeleteThis@pacbell.net> wrote:
>> Back in the mid-80s and early 90s, the people who had home computers
>> were usually intelligent and mostly nerdy. They could appreciate the
>> complex
>> nature of simulators. Now everyone and their grandmother has a PC and
>> most
>> of the people who play games are young kids who want the FPS and RTS
>> games.
>> Companies can make a lot more on those games even though the game-buying
>> base is a lot bigger.
>
> But the biggest and best sellers of the early 90's were so-called
> light sims, like Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe, the Dynamix Aces
> sims, the Microprose helo, prop and jet sims, and Falcon 3--sims
> without a 300 page manual that managed to get a lot of the reality in
> with the fun.
I'm talking about flight sims in general. Even the most simplistic flight
sim would take more brainpower than the FPS. I played one Lucasarts sim,
Battlehawks 1942 and believe me while it was simple it took a lot of skill
and time to get good at it. The users of today wouldn't want to spend the
time. I never played Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe. Guess I'll check that
out sometime.
> Poeple like Warren Spector were making sims that never forgot they
> were entertainment as well as sim. You may think this was a bad thing,
> that the simulation first last and always is the summit of the hobby.
> It's also the death of it.
>
I agree that less complex sims may attract more people but in general
all flight sims have a bigger learning curve and require longer attention
spans. Since attention spans have gotten short, people just don't flock to
flight sims.
John >> Stay informed about: Is the group officially dead? |
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External
Since: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4
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(Msg. 20) Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Is the group officially dead? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Oct 19, 10:52?am, "John Slade" <hhitma... RemoveThis @pacbell.net> wrote:
> I agree that less complex sims may attract more people but in general
> all flight sims have a bigger learning curve and require longer attention
> spans. Since attention spans have gotten short, people just don't flock to
> flight sims.
You're talking about an evolutionary change that takes thousands of
years to achieve. In fact SimHQ is reprinting Golden Age news reports
from as far back as 2000.
Can't help but wonder if some of those '98-'00 sims were adopted to
run on modern machines (most can already, with graphic tweaks) and re-
released at budget prices, the sim market might rebound. >> Stay informed about: Is the group officially dead? |
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External
Since: Oct 19, 2007
Posts: 2
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(Msg. 21) Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Is the group officially dead? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Jay Williams wrote:
> Has everyone just deleted this or moved to online forums?
Nope. Still lurking.
> Just wondering if the last batch of political drivel sounded the death knell
> of the group.
Given the sorry state of the flight-sim market, I see Mitch's occasional
drivel as a "ping" that tests the usenet infrastructure and my newsreader.
Should something notable happen in sim-world, I am sure that this ng
will spring to life.
> If you're still around, how about sounding off...
Hi, I am Mr. Sylvestre and I'd like a variable geom... oh well.
Regards,
Mr. S. >> Stay informed about: Is the group officially dead? |
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External
Since: Oct 19, 2007
Posts: 58
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(Msg. 22) Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Is the group officially dead? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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tomcervo wrote:
> On Oct 19, 10:52?am, "John Slade" <hhitma....TakeThisOut@pacbell.net> wrote:
>> I agree that less complex sims may attract more people but in general
>> all flight sims have a bigger learning curve and require longer attention
>> spans. Since attention spans have gotten short, people just don't flock to
>> flight sims.
>
> You're talking about an evolutionary change that takes thousands of
> years to achieve. In fact SimHQ is reprinting Golden Age news reports
> from as far back as 2000.
>
Actually, it has been shown that attention span can be improved, as
well as things like reflexes and hand-eye co-ordination, via proper
training. These abilities are innate and can be sharpened by intense
practice or become moribund through inactivity.
At least we've determined that this group *isn't* dead. All we need
is a thread like this one every once in a while! 
--
"Any attempt to replace a personal conscience by a collective
conscience does
violence to the individual and is the first step toward
totalitarianism." - Herman Hesse >> Stay informed about: Is the group officially dead? |
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External
Since: Jun 25, 2007
Posts: 1171
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(Msg. 23) Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:00 am
Post subject: Re: Is the group officially dead? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Oct 14, 3:52 pm, Mark <nospample... DeleteThis @ask.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 11:13:47 -0500, "Jay Williams"
>
> <voodoo141bug... DeleteThis @spamcox.net> wrote:
> >Has everyone just delieted this or moved to online forums?
>
> >Just wondering if the last batch of political drivel sounded the death knell
> >of the group.
>
> >If you're still around, how about sounding off...
>
> >Years ago this was a vibrant, active newsgroup, but no more. Falcon 5 could
> >be released complete with a real F-16 for the first 100 purchasers and it
> >wouldn't even get a notice here. It started to come back (on life support)
> >but then the 2008 elections started and someone got his second wind.
>
> I'm still here, but indeed.. not much new to talk about..
Flight Sim X Acceleration is coming out this week. >> Stay informed about: Is the group officially dead? |
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External
Since: Nov 13, 2007
Posts: 172
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(Msg. 24) Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Is the group officially dead? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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External
Since: Oct 27, 2007
Posts: 4
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(Msg. 25) Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Is the group officially dead? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"John Slade" <hhitman86 DeleteThis @pacbell.net> wrote in
news:cx3Si.11301$4V6.10353@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net:
>
> "tomcervo" <tomcervo DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1192678871.489524.3240@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>> On Oct 17, 4:23?pm, "John Slade" <hhitma... DeleteThis @pacbell.net> wrote:
>>> Back in the mid-80s and early 90s, the people who had home
>>> computers
>>> were usually intelligent and mostly nerdy. They could appreciate the
>>> complex
>>> nature of simulators. Now everyone and their grandmother has a PC and
>>> most
>>> of the people who play games are young kids who want the FPS and RTS
>>> games.
>>> Companies can make a lot more on those games even though the
>>> game-buying base is a lot bigger.
>>
>> But the biggest and best sellers of the early 90's were so-called
>> light sims, like Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe, the Dynamix Aces
>> sims, the Microprose helo, prop and jet sims, and Falcon 3--sims
>> without a 300 page manual that managed to get a lot of the reality in
>> with the fun.
>
> I'm talking about flight sims in general. Even the most simplistic
> flight
> sim would take more brainpower than the FPS. I played one Lucasarts sim,
> Battlehawks 1942 and believe me while it was simple it took a lot of
> skill and time to get good at it. The users of today wouldn't want to
> spend the time. I never played Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe. Guess
> I'll check that out sometime.
>
>> Poeple like Warren Spector were making sims that never forgot they
>> were entertainment as well as sim. You may think this was a bad thing,
>> that the simulation first last and always is the summit of the hobby.
>> It's also the death of it.
>>
>
> I agree that less complex sims may attract more people but in
> general
> all flight sims have a bigger learning curve and require longer
> attention spans. Since attention spans have gotten short, people just
> don't flock to flight sims.
When jet sims started coming with instruction
manuals the size of large city telephone books I
shied away from them. Esp for games that seemed
to include fewer and fewer missions. >> Stay informed about: Is the group officially dead? |
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External
Since: Oct 29, 2007
Posts: 1
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(Msg. 26) Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:13 am
Post subject: Re: Is the group officially dead? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Oct 27, 3:25 pm, Mitchell Holman <Noemailple....DeleteThis@comcast.com> wrote:
> "John Slade" <hhitma....DeleteThis@pacbell.net> wrote innews:cx3Si.11301$4V6.10353@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net:
>
> When jet sims started coming with instruction
> manuals the size of large city telephone books I
> shied away from them. Esp for games that seemed
> to include fewer and fewer missions
Naw, it's when these big manuals became boring reading. The original
AotP and Secret Weapons manuals were pretty thick, but made great
reading. The complete nadir of the genre came with Jane's F/A-18 --
tiny, itsy-bitsy little type crammed into a manual far too
small...made about as interesting reading as a printout of WHOIS lists >> Stay informed about: Is the group officially dead? |
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External
Since: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4
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(Msg. 27) Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Is the group officially dead? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Oct 29, 2:13?pm, scharm... DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote:
> > When jet sims started coming with instruction
> > manuals the size of large city telephone books I
> > shied away from them. Esp for games that seemed
> > to include fewer and fewer missions
>
> Naw, it's when these big manuals became boring reading. The original
> AotP and Secret Weapons manuals were pretty thick, but made great
> reading.
The Aces manuals were written/edited by John Bruning, a pretty good
writer. The Cfs 1 & 2 manuals were good as well. I think the spirals
tended to produce "manual" writing, instead of a narrative on how to
play a game.
> The complete nadir of the genre came with Jane's F/A-18 --
> tiny, itsy-bitsy little type crammed into a manual far too
> small...made about as interesting reading as a printout of WHOIS lists
"Here's your goddam manual--now go away and leave me alone!" >> Stay informed about: Is the group officially dead? |
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External
Since: Jan 17, 2005
Posts: 48
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(Msg. 28) Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:51 am
Post subject: Re: Is the group officially dead? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Hey I am still here top posting but truth is flying sims these days is just a
pain in the ass. I don't have the time to fly enough to remember the keys so
then I end up just going up and flying around cause getting in a fight is a
hilarious frustrating mess of key cards and bad eyes.
Sucks getting old...
PAPADOC
>
>> Jay Williams wrote:
>>> Has everyone just delieted this or moved to online forums?
>>>
>>> Just wondering if the last batch of political drivel sounded the death
>>> knell of the group.
>>>
>>> If you're still around, how about sounding off...
>>>
>
>I still be here, but not much to talk about at the moment.
>I've gone off IL2 lately but am waiting desperatly for Olegs latest.
> >> Stay informed about: Is the group officially dead? |
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External
Since: Jan 17, 2005
Posts: 48
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(Msg. 29) Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:58 am
Post subject: Re: Is the group officially dead? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Awww....
PAPADOC
>I still read on-topic posts, but thanks to Papa Doc and then Mitch I
>don't check in but every couple of days. That and a lack of new flight
>sims keeps me away, honestly. I'm still waiting for that next earth
>shattering sim that will someday come.
>
>
>-Will >> Stay informed about: Is the group officially dead? |
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External
Since: Jan 21, 2005
Posts: 2638
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(Msg. 30) Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Is the group officially dead? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Jay Williams wrote:
> Has everyone just delieted this or moved to online forums?
>
> Just wondering if the last batch of political drivel sounded the
> death knell of the group.
>
> If you're still around, how about sounding off...
>
I'm not really still around, just happened to stick my nose in for some
reason, but I was involved in a big way back when.
I remember those days--it was great, and this was the best group anywhere,
usenet or web forums . . . anywhere!
--
chainbreaker <waves "hi" to anyone else who was around then, too, and who
might perhaps remember him> >> Stay informed about: Is the group officially dead? |
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