Getting a wish from a fountain

Michiel Helvensteijn <nom... RemoveThis @please.com> wrote:
>
> I'm now at the stage of the game where I am strong enough to beat any water
> (moccasins | demons | nymphs) that can come along. So I'll now try to
> extract some wishes from the fountains I passed in the dungeon.
>
> I'm not trying to keep any conducts, and I hope to collect many a quest
> artifact this game.
>
> Please tell me if I have my facts straight:
>
> * The higher up the fountain, the bigger the chance for a wish.
> * From lvl 20 down, there is no chance to get a wish from a fountain.

Correct.

> * Quaffing and dipping have the same chance to extract a wish, except if
> dipping had any other effects (fading, diluting, rusting, etc). So since
> quaffing can curse inventory items, the best way to get a wish with the
> lowest risk is to dip an item that will not suffer any effects.

In particular if you play long enough you start building up potions
and scrolls you've unlikely to use. These are the best items to
use when dipping. Once you have a dozen or so blanks scrolls
it's unlikely you'll want more but the more uncursed water the
better once you have any unholy/holy water or you aren't going
atheist. Having a dozen blanks scrolls may be all you'll ever want
but someone who over-prepares for the ascension run can think a
dozen holy waters is a good start.

> * Fountains in mine-town and mine's end can also have a wish.
>
> I'm mainly trying to find out if I should quaff or dip.
 >> Stay informed about: Getting a wish from a fountain 

Janis Papanagnou <Janis_Papanag... DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
> Michiel Helvensteijn wrote:
>
> > From what I've heard, dipping into a fountain with a potion or scroll will
> > cut my chance for a wish (or any special effect) in half.
>
> I've never heared of that, and I can't find any such function in the source
> code.

Yet there is mention of it in the spoiler. Interesting. Thinking
back
I can't remember getting interesting effects from dipping to change
potions to water.
 >> Stay informed about: Getting a wish from a fountain 

Doug Freyburger wrote:

>> * Quaffing and dipping have the same chance to extract a wish, except if
>> dipping had any other effects (fading, diluting, rusting, etc). So since
>> quaffing can curse inventory items, the best way to get a wish with the
>> lowest risk is to dip an item that will not suffer any effects.
>
> In particular if you play long enough you start building up potions
> and scrolls you've unlikely to use. These are the best items to
> use when dipping. Once you have a dozen or so blanks scrolls
> it's unlikely you'll want more but the more uncursed water the
> better once you have any unholy/holy water or you aren't going
> atheist. Having a dozen blanks scrolls may be all you'll ever want
> but someone who over-prepares for the ascension run can think a
> dozen holy waters is a good start.

From what I've heard, dipping into a fountain with a potion or scroll will
cut my chance for a wish (or any special effect) in half. So I'd rather
dilute my potions in some random pool or with cancellation.

--
Michiel
 >> Stay informed about: Getting a wish from a fountain 

Michiel Helvensteijn wrote:
>
> From what I've heard, dipping into a fountain with a potion or scroll will
> cut my chance for a wish (or any special effect) in half.

I've never heared of that, and I can't find any such function in the source
code.

Janis
 >> Stay informed about: Getting a wish from a fountain 

Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> Michiel Helvensteijn wrote:
>> From what I've heard, dipping into a fountain with a potion or scroll will
>> cut my chance for a wish (or any special effect) in half.
>
> I've never heared of that, and I can't find any such function in the source
> code.

You are correct:

350. void
351. dipfountain(obj)
352. register struct obj *obj;
353. {
[SNIP levitation and excalibur check]
394. } else if (get_wet(obj) && !rn2(2))
395. return;

If the object you dip suffers wet effects, there is a 50% chance of
ignoring the rest of the function. This includes all fountain effects
(wish, demon, curse) but also includes drying up the fountain.
Therefore, it will take more dips to get the same effect, but the
chances of getting a wish are unaffected because you get the same number
of effects before the fountain dries up.

396.
397. /* Acid and water don't mix */
398. if (obj->otyp == POT_ACID) {
399. useup(obj);
400. return;
401. }
402.
403. switch (rnd(30)) {
[SNIP effects]
490. }
491. update_inventory();
492. dryup(u.ux, u.uy, TRUE);

This is the only place dryup() is called in this function. It can only
be called if the fountain effects are checked for too.

493. }

I can see why Michiel thought what he did, but he is mistaken.
 >> Stay informed about: Getting a wish from a fountain 

Michiel Helvensteijn wrote:
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
>
>>>* Quaffing and dipping have the same chance to extract a wish, except if
>>>dipping had any other effects (fading, diluting, rusting, etc). So since
>>>quaffing can curse inventory items, the best way to get a wish with the
>>>lowest risk is to dip an item that will not suffer any effects.
>>
>>In particular if you play long enough you start building up potions
>>and scrolls you've unlikely to use. These are the best items to
>>use when dipping. Once you have a dozen or so blanks scrolls
>>it's unlikely you'll want more but the more uncursed water the
>>better once you have any unholy/holy water or you aren't going
>>atheist. Having a dozen blanks scrolls may be all you'll ever want
>>but someone who over-prepares for the ascension run can think a
>>dozen holy waters is a good start.
>
>
> From what I've heard, dipping into a fountain with a potion or scroll will
> cut my chance for a wish (or any special effect) in half. So I'd rather
> dilute my potions in some random pool or with cancellation.

You've heard wrong and right.

What the hell that means?

Let me elaborate. The total chance is not affected unless you are
dipping a longsword, but the chance per move is lower.

OK, but what that means?

When you are dipping an item that is not a longsword there is 50% chance
that the only thing that happens is that the item you are dipping gets wet.

Yes, but so what?

I wrote that the _only_ thing that happens is that the item gets wet. So
your potions dillute and your spellbooks and scrolls get blank, but
there is _no_ chance that the fountain dries up.

So?

So, you unless you are dipping a longsword, you have 1 in 30 chance to
get a waterdemon who may grant you a wish, but you might spend twice the
dippings compared to how many times you would have quaffed to dry up the
fountain. So dip your potions, scrolls and spellbooks. You might not get
your wish but you get your water and blanks.

Topi 'Wishes mishes I use cancellation.' Linkala
--
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are
always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
- Bertrand Russell
"How come he didn't put 'I think' at the end of it?" - Anonymous
 >> Stay informed about: Getting a wish from a fountain 

Doug Freyburger wrote:
> Janis Papanagnou <Janis_Papanag....RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Michiel Helvensteijn wrote:
>>
>>> From what I've heard, dipping into a fountain with a potion or scroll will
>>> cut my chance for a wish (or any special effect) in half.
>> I've never heared of that, and I can't find any such function in the source
>> code.
>
> Yet there is mention of it in the spoiler. Interesting. Thinking
> back
> I can't remember getting interesting effects from dipping to change
> potions to water.

The spoiler is technically correct, though confusing. The relevant
phrases are:

"First, the object
gets wet and does the appropriate things (scrolls and spellbooks blank,
potions dilute, iron objects rust, lit objects go out, grease washes
off). Then special effects can happen (only 50% chance if wetting
object already caused an effect):"

and

"Finally, the fountain has a 1/3 chance of drying up (except
in Minetown, where you'll always get one warning); 1/6 if wetting
the object caused an effect."

If you water-damage an object, there is half the chance of getting an
effect, but also half the chance of drying the fountain. This is
consistent with my source analysis elsethread (when you wet an object
there is a 50% chance of skipping all other fountain effects - including
drying up).
 >> Stay informed about: Getting a wish from a fountain 

Philip Potter wrote:

> If you water-damage an object, there is half the chance of getting an
> effect, but also half the chance of drying the fountain. This is
> consistent with my source analysis elsethread (when you wet an object
> there is a 50% chance of skipping all other fountain effects - including
> drying up).

Yes, I see. That's pretty clear. So the best strategy would then be:

* Quaff from a fountain until the message is NOT "The cool draught refreshes
you."
* Then keep dipping things that need to be dipped and are not longswords.

This way you may still benefit from possible attribute-increase from a magic
fountain and you then avoid cursing your inventory.

--
Michiel
 >> Stay informed about: Getting a wish from a fountain 

Michiel Helvensteijn wrote:
> Philip Potter wrote:
>
>> If you water-damage an object, there is half the chance of getting an
>> effect, but also half the chance of drying the fountain. This is
>> consistent with my source analysis elsethread (when you wet an object
>> there is a 50% chance of skipping all other fountain effects - including
>> drying up).
>
> Yes, I see. That's pretty clear. So the best strategy would then be:
>
> * Quaff from a fountain until the message is NOT "The cool draught refreshes
> you."

(Or until you get a stat bonus.)

> * Then keep dipping things that need to be dipped and are not longswords.
>
> This way you may still benefit from possible attribute-increase from a magic
> fountain and you then avoid cursing your inventory.

This sounds like a good strategy.

Since whole inventory curse is the most annoying effect to a character
who's farming for wishes, I've done a little analysis:

Magic fountain (1/7):
"The cool draught refreshes you." (3/10) [total 3/70]
Stat boost. (7/10) [total 7/70]

Normal fountain (6/7):
"The cool draught refreshes you." (3/10) [total 18/70]
Inventory curse (1/30) [total 2/70]
Other effect (2/3) [total 40/70]

So from one quaff of a fountain, there is a 47/70 chance of learning
what kind of fountain it is (stat boost or other effect), a 21/70 chance
of being no wiser ("The cool draught refreshes you."), and a 2/70 chance
of an inventory curse. Since you'll try again in this last case, the
overall chance of discovering the fountain type before getting your
inventory cursed is 47/49 (assuming that the fountain doesn't dry up
beforehand).

If we factor in the 1/3 chance of drying up:

First quaff

Curse 2/70
Learn fountain type 47/70
Cool draught 21/70
=> Dries up 1/3 [total 7/70]
=> Second quaff 2/3 [total 14/70]

The total chance of the fountain drying up before you learn what type it
is is 7/70 + 14/70 * 7/70 + (14/70)^2 * 7/70 +...

This is a geometric series with solution (7/70) / (1 - 14/70) = 7/56.

So, for each fountain (not each quaff) you have the following possibilities:
2/56: Get inventory cursed
7/56: Fountain dries up before you learn which type it was
47/56: Learn fountain type safely

And the main result here is that with your chosen strategy (quaff til
fountain type known, then dip) each fountain has a 1/28 chance of
cursing your inventory.

Phil
 >> Stay informed about: Getting a wish from a fountain 

"Philip Potter" <pgp DeleteThis @doc.ic.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:fl3q0q$117$1@aioe.org...
>
> The total chance of the fountain drying up before you learn what type it
> is is 7/70 + 14/70 * 7/70 + (14/70)^2 * 7/70 +...
>
> This is a geometric series with solution (7/70) / (1 - 14/70) = 7/56.
>
> So, for each fountain (not each quaff) you have the following
> possibilities:
> 2/56: Get inventory cursed
> 7/56: Fountain dries up before you learn which type it was
> 47/56: Learn fountain type safely
>
> And the main result here is that with your chosen strategy (quaff til
> fountain type known, then dip) each fountain has a 1/28 chance of cursing
> your inventory.

Nice work!

--
AngleWyrm,killed by a kitten in the Gnomish Mines on level 4 (deepest
trip:5)
Wiz-Elf-Mal-Cha Score: 4031
 >> Stay informed about: Getting a wish from a fountain 

Philip Potter wrote:

> Michiel Helvensteijn wrote:
>> Philip Potter wrote:
>>
>>> If you water-damage an object, there is half the chance of getting an
>>> effect, but also half the chance of drying the fountain. This is
>>> consistent with my source analysis elsethread (when you wet an object
>>> there is a 50% chance of skipping all other fountain effects - including
>>> drying up).
>>
>> Yes, I see. That's pretty clear. So the best strategy would then be:
>>
>> * Quaff from a fountain until the message is NOT "The cool draught
>> refreshes you."
>
> (Or until you get a stat bonus.)

Which is also NOT "The cool draught refreshes you." (Right?)

>> * Then keep dipping things that need to be dipped and are not longswords.
>>
>> This way you may still benefit from possible attribute-increase from a
>> magic fountain and you then avoid cursing your inventory.
>
> This sounds like a good strategy.
>
> Since whole inventory curse is the most annoying effect to a character
> who's farming for wishes, I've done a little analysis:
>
> ...
>
> And the main result here is that with your chosen strategy (quaff til
> fountain type known, then dip) each fountain has a 1/28 chance of
> cursing your inventory.

Sounds logical to me. You need to be strong enough to handle the snakes and
water demons anyway, so you may as well have a scroll of remove curse with
you as well before you go wish-hunting.

--
Michiel
 >> Stay informed about: Getting a wish from a fountain 

Philip Potter wrote:
> So, for each fountain (not each quaff) you have the following
> possibilities:
> 2/56: Get inventory cursed
> 7/56: Fountain dries up before you learn which type it was
> 47/56: Learn fountain type safely
>
> And the main result here is that with your chosen strategy (quaff til
> fountain type known, then dip) each fountain has a 1/28 chance of
> cursing your inventory.

Would Magicbane help with this?

-HJC
 >> Stay informed about: Getting a wish from a fountain 

Henry J Cobb wrote:
> Philip Potter wrote:
>
>> So, for each fountain (not each quaff) you have the following
>> possibilities:
>> 2/56: Get inventory cursed
>> 7/56: Fountain dries up before you learn which type it was
>> 47/56: Learn fountain type safely
>>
>> And the main result here is that with your chosen strategy (quaff til
>> fountain type known, then dip) each fountain has a 1/28 chance of
>> cursing your inventory.
>
> Would Magicbane help with this?

No, if you drink from (or dip into) fountains it's an unconditional
curse.

Magicbane just helps against spells (magical/clerical), against The
Wizard's random curses, curses from angry gods, curses from thrones,
curses from reading spellbooks.

Janis
 >> Stay informed about: Getting a wish from a fountain