Any espionage rpg out there?

Nicole Massey wrote:
> For Spy/Espionage, the elder statesman is Top Secret, which is out of print.
> Victory games had James Bond 007, and Hero system had Danger International.

Danger International is out of print. The new Hero System book, Dark
Champions, covers the entire modern era genre, not just espionage. In
around 400 pages.

> I think there are also GURPS sourcebooks like Special Ops, Black Ops, and
> others.

I have to warn people about GURPS Black Ops. It has absolutely *no*
usefulness for a modern era campaign (and even less so for the original
poster, regardless of what he means when he writes realism). It boils
down to GUPRS Men in Black, as in the movie.

Many of the other modern era GURPS books may be useful. The only really
on-target one for the original poster is GURPS Espionage, but I expect
to make heavy usef of GURPS Special Ops, GURPS Covert Ops, GURPS
Hi-Tech, GURPS Cops and a few others.

> There's also probably some I don't remember as well -- other people here
> will probably mention some that will make me slap my forehead and say "duh."

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
 >> Stay informed about: Any espionage rpg out there? 

Paolo Marinozzi wrote:
> First of all, thanks a lot for both answers, I was aware of the existence of
> a good number of your suggestion but I really don't know about their
> settings.
>
> Realism, good question... I think about a realistic setting indeed, not 007
> nor an undefined Agency; true historical agencies, radicated into world
> affairs of the cold war; I think about spies a la Harry Palmer of Ipcress
> fame, common individual without access to supergadgets and I think about

These spies you're talking about were not extremely competent?

They did not have high skill values and high attributes?

> plots gritty and unforgiving.
>
> So, all in all, maybe I need a generic rpg with a strong setting, a setting
> about historical organization, realistic and clearly described tipical spy
> procedure (how to set a spy ring, how to meet contacts, the little dirty

I was unimpressed with GURPS Espionage's coverage of spy procedures, and
Dark Champions is worse. Spycraft is probably the best place to look,
but that's first and foremost an entire system, and only secondly does
it give you information about espionage procedues.

> secrets of day to day work in KGB or MI5), I'd like to set stories the likes
> of Le Carre, George Smiley against Karla, without true winners.
>
> When I tried to use a generic system (I tried Basic from Chaosium, maybe
> it's not the right one, but it's easy, I like it and mechanics are not my
> first concern) to set a short spy adventure, I stopped because of my
> ignorance of the basis of procedure, I want to give the players a sense of
> paranoia, but I need to "know" more than them to succeed.
>
> Thanks for your time, sorry for my english and see you soon

Your English can be understood, although you need lots of practice.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
 >> Stay informed about: Any espionage rpg out there? 

> These spies you're talking about were not extremely competent?
>
> They did not have high skill values and high attributes?
>

Well, yes, in a sense.
I
George Smiley and Harry Palmer are surely clever and resourceful, but are
nowhere likes 007 (altough Palmer shares with the latter a lot of charm with
women), they are brilliant individual but lacks gyrocopter, Aston Martins
and the sci-fi gadgets of Bond; they works for a bureacracy, fighting agaist
it at times.
So, they have high stats in some skills but are severely lacking in others
(Smiley is fat, both wear strong glasses)


>I was unimpressed with GURPS Espionage's coverage of spy procedures, and
>Dark Champions is worse. Spycraft is probably the best place to look, but
>that's first and foremost an entire system, and only secondly does it give
>you information about espionage procedues

I have looked at Spycraft, but seems too sci-fi to me, and a bit heavy on
rules and combat mechanichs.
Probably a good solid sourcebook of cold war espionage is the answer, but
being overly lazy I was hoping to find the perfect spy game, all inclusive

> Your English can be understood, although you need lots of practice.

I try, I try... )

Carlo
 >> Stay informed about: Any espionage rpg out there? 

Paolo Marinozzi wrote:

>
> Probably a good solid sourcebook of cold war espionage is the answer, but
> being overly lazy I was hoping to find the perfect spy game, all inclusive

Since you're not overly concerned with the game mechanics, I'd say
split the difference.
Use a system you like.
(Like Basic Roleplaying for example.)
And hit the library and do lots of research on how the spy game works
in the real world.
Also read lots of fiction of the type you're aiming for.
(Though it sounds like your on top of that already.)
Don't be scared to lift ideas from novels and movies, especially
ones your players haven't read or seen.
 >> Stay informed about: Any espionage rpg out there? 

Paolo Marinozzi wrote:
>>These spies you're talking about were not extremely competent?
>>
>>They did not have high skill values and high attributes?
>
> Well, yes, in a sense.
> I
> George Smiley and Harry Palmer are surely clever and resourceful, but are
> nowhere likes 007 (altough Palmer shares with the latter a lot of charm with
> women), they are brilliant individual but lacks gyrocopter, Aston Martins
> and the sci-fi gadgets of Bond; they works for a bureacracy, fighting agaist

That's what spy-fi means: When movie script writers feel absolutely free
to invent gadgets and devices without any respect for science or the
current level of technology.

Note, though, that the James Bond novels, at least the first three, are
not spy-fi.

> it at times.
> So, they have high stats in some skills but are severely lacking in others
> (Smiley is fat, both wear strong glasses)

If you want to emulate that, you'll need a system that can handle
characters with high attributes and high skills. Handle them well.

But you'll also need a system that can handle multiple highly skilled
characters, handle them in the sense that they remain clearly different
from each other in terms of what they can do. Unless you want to GM a
single-player campaign.

>>I was unimpressed with GURPS Espionage's coverage of spy procedures, and
>>Dark Champions is worse. Spycraft is probably the best place to look, but
>>that's first and foremost an entire system, and only secondly does it give
>>you information about espionage procedues
>
> I have looked at Spycraft, but seems too sci-fi to me, and a bit heavy on

It's gleefully spy-fi, yes.

> rules and combat mechanichs.

I don't see anything wrong with crunch.

> Probably a good solid sourcebook of cold war espionage is the answer, but
> being overly lazy I was hoping to find the perfect spy game, all inclusive

Sorry to disappoint you.

A couple of things I'd like. Well, okay, three...

A sourcebook on the time period immediately after World War II. 1945 to
1950, or 1945 to 1952, or thereabouts.

A sourcebook on the secret nazi networks in that period, especially Odessa.

A sourcebook on the various communist countries and their military and
civilian intellience agencies. All too often, I fear I'd end up just
using the KGB and the GRU. But every country in the Soviet Empire had
espionage agencies, and there's also China, Cuba and so forth.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
 >> Stay informed about: Any espionage rpg out there? 

>
> That's what spy-fi means: When movie script writers feel absolutely free
> to invent gadgets and devices without any respect for science or the
> current level of technology.
>
> Note, though, that the James Bond novels, at least the first three, are
> not spy-fi.

That's true, the first Fleming is not bad at all, the movies, on the other
hand, are entertaining but not spy stories anymore


> If you want to emulate that, you'll need a system that can handle
> characters with high attributes and high skills. Handle them well.
>
> But you'll also need a system that can handle multiple highly skilled
> characters, handle them in the sense that they remain clearly different
> from each other in terms of what they can do. Unless you want to GM a
> single-player campaign.

Right, the skill system of Basic seems quite right in this respect, and
adding new skills is easy


> It's gleefully spy-fi, yes.

)

> I don't see anything wrong with crunch.

My group can't sustain too much rules, we are aging...

> Sorry to disappoint you.

You're quite helpful, if I seemed rude it's my fault

> A couple of things I'd like. Well, okay, three...
>
> A sourcebook on the time period immediately after World War II. 1945 to
> 1950, or 1945 to 1952, or thereabouts.

Great idea indeed, but I'd like something that goes a bit further, till the
1970's

> A sourcebook on the secret nazi networks in that period, especially
> Odessa.

Good, a twilight campaign in Vienna, Budapest and Crimea, agents of SIS
between a rock (ex nazis) and a hard place (NKGB agents)


> A sourcebook on the various communist countries and their military and
> civilian intellience agencies. All too often, I fear I'd end up just using
> the KGB and the GRU. But every country in the Soviet Empire had espionage
> agencies, and there's also China, Cuba and so forth.


Sign me here, but I need also the western world companion

Carlo
 >> Stay informed about: Any espionage rpg out there? 

> Since you're not overly concerned with the game mechanics, I'd say
> split the difference.
> Use a system you like.
> (Like Basic Roleplaying for example.)
> And hit the library and do lots of research on how the spy game works
> in the real world.
> Also read lots of fiction of the type you're aiming for.
> (Though it sounds like your on top of that already.)
> Don't be scared to lift ideas from novels and movies, especially
> ones your players haven't read or seen.

Yes, I know that's the better answer, but, being lazy, I was hoping to find
the work done for me

Carlo
 >> Stay informed about: Any espionage rpg out there? 

Paolo Marinozzi wrote:
> Yes, I know that's the better answer, but, being lazy, I was hoping to find
> the work done for me

I'll need to re-check out GURPS Espionage anyway, so I might as well do
it now, rather than later, and then I can post a quick evaluation in here.

Back when I first bought it, I had no actual ideas for a modern era
campaign, and that might have affected my original opinion.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
 >> Stay informed about: Any espionage rpg out there? 

"Paolo Marinozzi" wrote:
> I have looked at Spycraft, but seems too sci-fi to me, and a bit heavy on
> rules and combat mechanichs.
> Probably a good solid sourcebook of cold war espionage is the answer, but
> being overly lazy I was hoping to find the perfect spy game, all inclusive

Spycraft is good, and easily adaptable for a cold-war spy game.

The newest version is indeed rules heavy, however, many of the rules are
optional rules, as Spycraft is designed in a modular fashion in order to
offer opportunities to roleplay a wide variety of genres.

In addition, the rules are expandable, having a mechanics system that allows
for new mechanics to be easily added by the GM.

It would be my first choice for building a cold-war spy game.

With Regards,
Dirk Collins
 >> Stay informed about: Any espionage rpg out there? 

Paolo Marinozzi wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I was wondering if exist an rpg (or maybe a sourcebook) based on the
> realistic spy stories of Le Carrè or Deighton; berlin wall, coming from the
> cold and so on.

Although it may not be a spy RPG the way you want, you way want to look
at _Millenium's End_.

Brandon
 >> Stay informed about: Any espionage rpg out there? 

Peter Knutsen (usenet) wrote:
> Paolo Marinozzi wrote:
>> Yes, I know that's the better answer, but, being lazy, I was hoping to
>> find the work done for me
>
> I'll need to re-check out GURPS Espionage anyway, so I might as well do
> it now, rather than later, and then I can post a quick evaluation in here.
>
> Back when I first bought it, I had no actual ideas for a modern era
> campaign, and that might have affected my original opinion.

I've started re-reading GURPS Espionage, and I'll have to recommend it
to you, Paolo. It has some flaws, but all in all it is a fairly good
source book on the genre. I think that if SJ Games were still doing 3rd
Edition Style GURPS books, they could produce a superb second edition.

GURPS Espionage can be purchased from e23 as a PDF, or perhaps found at
great expense in a used-RPG store.

If you have the budget for a second book, get GURPS Covert Ops. It's a
fairly good companion volume...

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
 >> Stay informed about: Any espionage rpg out there? 

Ophidian wrote:
> copeab.RemoveThis@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Paolo Marinozzi wrote:
> >
> >>Hello,
> >>
> >>I was wondering if exist an rpg (or maybe a sourcebook) based on the
> >>realistic spy stories of Le Carrè or Deighton; berlin wall, coming from the
> >>cold and so on.
> >
> > Although it may not be a spy RPG the way you want, you way want to look
> > at _Millenium's End_.
>
> Some good stuff background wise, but chuck the skill and combat
> systems for your won good.

After posting this, I pulled out my copy and flipped though it.

The skill system actually isn't that bad. The combat system, in
particular using clear plastic sheets over silhouettes of targets to
determine a hit and a convoluted wounding system, is pretty bad.

Brandon
 >> Stay informed about: Any espionage rpg out there? 

copeab.RemoveThis@yahoo.com wrote:

> Paolo Marinozzi wrote:
>
>>Hello,
>>
>>I was wondering if exist an rpg (or maybe a sourcebook) based on the
>>realistic spy stories of Le Carrè or Deighton; berlin wall, coming from the
>>cold and so on.
>
> Although it may not be a spy RPG the way you want, you way want to look
> at _Millenium's End_.

Some good stuff background wise, but chuck the skill and combat
systems for your won good.
 >> Stay informed about: Any espionage rpg out there?