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Patrick

External


Since: Sep 30, 2005
Posts: 82



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:04 pm
Post subject: The downsides of computer games
Archived from groups: comp>sys>ibm>pc>games>war-historical (more info?)

Though PC wargames are getting better all the time, for years I've had
my share of complaints about them--and I still do. How do you deal
with the following:

1. What's behind the interface? When I played board wargames or
miniatures games, I always knew just what was going on--because I had
to do everything myself. If I wasn't sure how to handle something, I
had to look it up in the rulebook; and if it wasn't there, I had to
make a house rule to cover it. But computer games are often poorly
documented; and even when they're well documented, the player doesn't
*have* to study the rules. So, either for lack of documentation or
laziness about paying attention, computer wargames often become
something of a clickfest. I find myself just pushing pieces around and
seeing what happens. But most of the time I really don't know *why*
things are happening--and I don't have the patience or interest to slow
down and find out.

2. Obsolescence. Back when Panzer General was new, I thought,
"Wow--this is it. They'll keep expanding and improving this game, and
it'll satisfy me for life." Now I can barely get PG to run on any
system I have, and when I do it's a joke. I wonder what I ever saw in
it. *Everything* has advanced--computers, game design, AI, and all.
Back in the heyday of Avalon Hill and SPI, I griped about the release
of more wargames than I could possibly keep up with--and the
discontinuation of some of my old favorites. Nothing has changed,
except that in this home-computer age people seem to *expect* every
game to become obsolete before long--or at least to be surpassed by
something newer and better.

3. Complexity creep. The Squad Leader/ASL phenomenon illustrates how
ever-increasing complexity can finally kill a game--or at least
necessitate a complete revision. Before ASL came along, the SL modules
had become too complicated for anybody to play. It made some of us
long for the good old days when wargames were simpler. But with PC
games, much of the complexity is hidden--handled by the computer. So,
we end up with games that would ordinarily be too complicated to play,
but with the help of the computer we play them anyway. This leads back
to point 1 above--the phenomenon of not really knowing what's going on
..

4. Screen limitations. Thumbnail maps help, and we've all gotten used
to scrolling around maps. But zooming and scrolling are still a pain
in the neck compared to having everything laid out on a physical
mapboard or tabletop.

5. Glitz and dazzle. Many PC wargames aim to delight the user with
eye and ear candy--sound effects, musical scores, animation, graphic
detail, and so forth. Apparently the goal is to make the player feel
like he's really there on the battlefield. Unfortunately, the more a
game succeeds at that, the less I like it. I really don't *want* to be
on a battlefield. I don't want to see all the blood and guts and
terror; I don't necessarily even want to hear the clash of steel. I'm
an armchair general, not a real-life general. I want to experiment
with strategy and tactics and military maneuvers *without* going
anywhere near real war.

6. The lure of convenience. Five years ago, I was packing to move,
and I dragged all my old board wargames down out of the closet. Though
they brought back fond memories, I realized there was no way I'd ever
play any of them again. Just setting one up seemed like a monumental
task. Re-learning the rules was an unwelcome burden. In short, I'd
been thoroughly spoiled by computer games. Instant setup, no need to
learn the rules, ability to save and reload games--it's all so very
easy. Too easy. Pretty soon I'm just mindlessly clicking, staring at
the screen, enjoying the show--but really having little idea what's
going on. Back to point 1 above again.

Despite all these downsides, originally there was one big upside to
computer games for me. Before the home-computer age, I found myself
playing solitaire most of the time, for lack of opponents and because I
liked playtesting games at my own pace. Suddenly I could play wargames
on the PC anytime I liked, without having to play both sides against
each other. That was a real dream come true. And computer AI got
better and better--until the Internet came along. Now some designers &
developers figure a mediocre AI is sufficient, since hardcore wargamers
will play each other online or PBEM. So, I've bought a couple PC
wargames that were a waste of time to play solitaire.

The more I play PC wargames, the more I miss board wargames and
miniatures. Only in my mind, though. In reality, I'd never have the
patience to go back to them.

--Patrick

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Josephfromri

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Since: Jul 05, 2005
Posts: 9



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:47 pm
Post subject: Re: The downsides of computer games [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 18 Mar 2006 19:04:48 -0800, "Patrick" <patrick55carroll DeleteThis @yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Though PC wargames are getting better all the time, for years I've had
>my share of complaints about them--and I still do. How do you deal
>with the following:
>
>1. What's behind the interface? When I played board wargames or
>miniatures games, I always knew just what was going on--because I had
>to do everything myself. If I wasn't sure how to handle something, I
>had to look it up in the rulebook; and if it wasn't there, I had to
>make a house rule to cover it. But computer games are often poorly
>documented; and even when they're well documented, the player doesn't
>*have* to study the rules. So, either for lack of documentation or
>laziness about paying attention, computer wargames often become
>something of a clickfest. I find myself just pushing pieces around and
>seeing what happens. But most of the time I really don't know *why*
>things are happening--and I don't have the patience or interest to slow
>down and find out.
>
>2. Obsolescence. Back when Panzer General was new, I thought,
>"Wow--this is it. They'll keep expanding and improving this game, and
>it'll satisfy me for life." Now I can barely get PG to run on any
>system I have, and when I do it's a joke. I wonder what I ever saw in
>it. *Everything* has advanced--computers, game design, AI, and all.
>Back in the heyday of Avalon Hill and SPI, I griped about the release
>of more wargames than I could possibly keep up with--and the
>discontinuation of some of my old favorites. Nothing has changed,
>except that in this home-computer age people seem to *expect* every
>game to become obsolete before long--or at least to be surpassed by
>something newer and better.
>
>3. Complexity creep. The Squad Leader/ASL phenomenon illustrates how
>ever-increasing complexity can finally kill a game--or at least
>necessitate a complete revision. Before ASL came along, the SL modules
>had become too complicated for anybody to play. It made some of us
>long for the good old days when wargames were simpler. But with PC
>games, much of the complexity is hidden--handled by the computer. So,
>we end up with games that would ordinarily be too complicated to play,
>but with the help of the computer we play them anyway. This leads back
>to point 1 above--the phenomenon of not really knowing what's going on
>.
>
>4. Screen limitations. Thumbnail maps help, and we've all gotten used
>to scrolling around maps. But zooming and scrolling are still a pain
>in the neck compared to having everything laid out on a physical
>mapboard or tabletop.
>
>5. Glitz and dazzle. Many PC wargames aim to delight the user with
>eye and ear candy--sound effects, musical scores, animation, graphic
>detail, and so forth. Apparently the goal is to make the player feel
>like he's really there on the battlefield. Unfortunately, the more a
>game succeeds at that, the less I like it. I really don't *want* to be
>on a battlefield. I don't want to see all the blood and guts and
>terror; I don't necessarily even want to hear the clash of steel. I'm
>an armchair general, not a real-life general. I want to experiment
>with strategy and tactics and military maneuvers *without* going
>anywhere near real war.
>
>6. The lure of convenience. Five years ago, I was packing to move,
>and I dragged all my old board wargames down out of the closet. Though
>they brought back fond memories, I realized there was no way I'd ever
>play any of them again. Just setting one up seemed like a monumental
>task. Re-learning the rules was an unwelcome burden. In short, I'd
>been thoroughly spoiled by computer games. Instant setup, no need to
>learn the rules, ability to save and reload games--it's all so very
>easy. Too easy. Pretty soon I'm just mindlessly clicking, staring at
>the screen, enjoying the show--but really having little idea what's
>going on. Back to point 1 above again.
>
>Despite all these downsides, originally there was one big upside to
>computer games for me. Before the home-computer age, I found myself
>playing solitaire most of the time, for lack of opponents and because I
>liked playtesting games at my own pace. Suddenly I could play wargames
>on the PC anytime I liked, without having to play both sides against
>each other. That was a real dream come true. And computer AI got
>better and better--until the Internet came along. Now some designers &
>developers figure a mediocre AI is sufficient, since hardcore wargamers
>will play each other online or PBEM. So, I've bought a couple PC
>wargames that were a waste of time to play solitaire.
>
>The more I play PC wargames, the more I miss board wargames and
>miniatures. Only in my mind, though. In reality, I'd never have the
>patience to go back to them.
>
>--Patrick
Patrick, I could not agree with you more

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JeF

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Since: Dec 19, 2005
Posts: 18



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:10 am
Post subject: Re: The downsides of computer games [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Patrick,

Very good analysis.

I always hesitated in buying any mini rule or board wargames for the
lack of opponent problem. We have some strategy games at home, but the
closer to a wargame are HeroScape and ( -urgh- ) Risk. As you said,
computer wargames are instantly set-up (5 minutes at most) and there is
a decent opponent available.

For the record, I tried to get to SL one day. I borrowed the game to a
collegue of mine. I played solitaire for an hour or two per evening
during a couple of weeks. I stopped when the amount of rules to study
and the set-up time would prevent me to play a decent turn within the
given timeframe. And I was not far in the scenario lists : Hill 621.
This game is certainly not for me.

I agree with you about the screen limitation. It's not easy to gras
the situation at hand. Game interfacesare more and more decent though.
Finally, the tendency to show bloods and guts with terrific sound
effects is somewhat disturbing. This is why I tend to play some more
abstracted games (like HttR or BiN). Even CM does not show blood,
though it's been regularly asked in the forums...

Cheers,

JeF.
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ray o'hara

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Since: Jun 23, 2005
Posts: 191



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:12 am
Post subject: Re: The downsides of computer games [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Patrick" <patrick55carroll.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1142737488.926612.80870@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> Though PC wargames are getting better all the time, for years I've had
> my share of complaints about them--and I still do. How do you deal
> with the following:
>
> 1. What's behind the interface? >


as long as it models reality in a way i think is oay it doesn't matter.








2. Obsolescence.


i think of this when following the DG copy protection controversy.
some go on about the game being unplayable if the server is closed by the
company going bust in a few years. i have plenty of obsolete games that
didn't need the company to go bust to become unplayable.
those old C-64 floppies didn't even have a port in my last two puters.




>
> 3. Complexity creep. . But with PC
> games, much of the complexity is hidden--handled by the computer. So,
> we end up with games that would ordinarily be too complicated to play,
> but with the help of the computer we play them anyway. This leads back
> to point 1 above--the phenomenon of not really knowing what's going on
> .

and as i said,. it doesn't matter if it s mice running in a wheel. as long
as it works.




>
> 4. Screen limitations. Thumbnail maps help, and we've all gotten used
> to scrolling around maps. But zooming and scrolling are still a pain
> in the neck compared to having everything laid out on a physical
> mapboard or tabletop.
>

more fog of war. while TSS and LBDLM looked great. neither meade/lee nor the
emperor/kutosov could ever see the whole battle





> 5. Glitz and dazzle. Many PC wargames aim to delight the user with
> eye and ear candy--sound effects, musical scores, animation, graphic
> detail, and so forth.


yet UV and others do fine, a pretty map goes a long way.



> 6. The lure of convenience. Five years ago, I was packing to move,
> and I dragged all my old board wargames down out of the closet. Though
> they brought back fond memories, I realized there was no way I'd ever
> play any of them again. Just setting one up seemed like a monumental
> task. Re-learning the rules was an unwelcome burden. In short, I'd
> been thoroughly spoiled by computer games. Instant setup, no need to
> learn the rules, ability to save and reload games--it's all so very
> easy. Too easy. Pretty soon I'm just mindlessly clicking, staring at
> the screen, enjoying the show--but really having little idea what's
> going on. Back to point 1 above again.
>

yeah, those dusty piles of board games take up space. but i found that
during a yard sale i was loathe to sell them.
set up is much easier. a PC game doesn't render a room useless for other
pursuits for months,
PBEM keeps the game going, it is not always easy to make time to visit, and
my cat hasn't disrupted a game in years.






> Despite all these downsides, originally there was one big upside to
> computer games for me. Before the home-computer age, I found myself
> playing solitaire most of the time, for lack of opponents and because I
> liked playtesting games at my own pace. Suddenly I could play wargames
> on the PC anytime I liked, without having to play both sides against
> each other. That was a real dream come true. And computer AI got
> better and better--until the Internet came along. Now some designers &
> developers figure a mediocre AI is sufficient, since hardcore wargamers
> will play each other online or PBEM. So, I've bought a couple PC
> wargames that were a waste of time to play solitaire.
>




i marvel that AI can put up any kind of fight. i consider it the most
difficult task a designer faces.


> The more I play PC wargames, the more I miss board wargames and
> miniatures. Only in my mind, though. In reality, I'd never have the
> patience to go back to them.
>
> --Patrick
>


i still play naval miniatures. nothing can ever beat the appeal of the
little ships.
folk who walk in and see me playing a PC ame might go "thats cool" and then
wander into the next room looking for something of interest.
people who come upon a miniatures game go" OH WOW! WHAT ARE THOSE, CAN I
PLAY"
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Werewolf

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Since: Feb 19, 2006
Posts: 41



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:33 am
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Josephfromri DeleteThis @yahoo.com wrote:
> Patrick, I could not agree with you more

And you had to quote the whole diatribe to say that...
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Oleg Mastruko

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Since: Feb 09, 2005
Posts: 91



(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:55 am
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On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 07:23:15 -0500, Giftzwerg
<giftzwerg999 RemoveThis @NOSPAMZ.hotmail.com> wrote:

>In article <1142737488.926612.80870 RemoveThis @u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
>patrick55carroll@yahoo.com says...
>
>> 1. What's behind the interface? When I played board wargames or
>> miniatures games, I always knew just what was going on--because I had
>> to do everything myself. If I wasn't sure how to handle something, I
>> had to look it up in the rulebook; and if it wasn't there, I had to
>> make a house rule to cover it.
>
>Who cares what's behind the interface?
>
>So long as the system lets you do things that accurately reflect
>military reality in a realistic way, why would you even want to know
>what's going on behind the scenes? Personally speaking, I'd go a step
>further and say that the less I know about how the system "works," the
>more I can just concentrate on whatever task I'm trying to accomplish -
>and the better I can immerse myself in the fun of the simulation.

Absolutely 110% true.

Yes I know "me too" posts are lame. I wanted to write something
similar myself, but now it has been formulated by Giftz I choose to
post "me too" note to it. Surprised)

O.
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Patrick

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Since: Sep 30, 2005
Posts: 82



(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:34 pm
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Paul Synnott wrote:
> I might be wrong here, but I have a feeling that this wanting to know
> what's behind the interface is what happens when someone misses having a
> CRT and various other tables to refer to during play like they usually
> have with boardgames. Not only would I agree that this this information
> shouldn't be needed, I'd atually go so far as to say that it *should* be
> hidden.

I can certainly understand that POV, but taste-wise I have to strongly
disagree with it.

For my taste, nothing should ever be hidden--not even for the sake of
realism. In board wargames and miniatures games, hidden movement is
such a pain in the neck that it often doesn't happen--and some people
have always complained about how unrealistic that is. Computer
wargames almost always have hidden movement, because it's easy to
do--and because almost all wargamers consider it realistic.

But the thing is, I've never wanted that kind of realism. What I've
always especially liked about wargames is the way they let me have a
bird's-eye view of a battlefield and let me in on information that
on-the-spot commanders could never have. I really like being "in the
know," and I really hate being taken by surprise--or even taking the
other guy by surprise.

I dunno--maybe it's the code of the Old West, where you're supposed to
face off with your opponent in a stand-up fight instead of resorting to
bushwhacking. For whatever reason, I like wargames where I get to see
just what's going on everywhere. And I don't care if a real-life
commander couldn't see all that; I'm not role-playing a battlefield
commander anyway--I'm just playing a wargame.

I do, however, like command-control rules. Another thing that's
terribly unrealistic about old-fashioned wargames is that the player
can micromanage things way beyond what any real-life commander could
do. And I eventually got tired of that. So, I don't mind rolling dice
to determine whether my units will obey my orders or take off on their
own. That adds a measure of interest to the game and suits me just
fine--as long as I get to hover over the battlefield and observe
everything that's going on.

I suppose it boils down to the kind of game one prefers. There are
perfect information, deterministic games like chess; perfect
information, dicey games like backgammon; limited information, chancey
games like poker; and limited information, deterministic games like
duplicate bridge. I've always preferred games like backgammon myself.
I don't mind tossing the dice, but I definitely want to see everything
that's going on.

--Patrick
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Paul Synnott

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Since: Mar 14, 2005
Posts: 17



(Msg. 8) Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:55 pm
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Giftzwerg wrote:
> In article <1142737488.926612.80870 DeleteThis @u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
> patrick55carroll DeleteThis @yahoo.com says...
>
> Who cares what's behind the interface?

I might be wrong here, but I have a feeling that this wanting to know
what's behind the interface is what happens when someone misses having a
CRT and various other tables to refer to during play like they usually
have with boardgames. Not only would I agree that this this information
shouldn't be needed, I'd atually go so far as to say that it *should* be
hidden.

When I first got into board wargames, starting with AH's Russian Front
and SL/ASL, I rememember eagerly grabbing copies of The General for
strategy tips, and being very disappointed to find that the articles
largely seemed to concern themselves with statistical probabilities and
means by which favourable odds ratios might be arrived at. Relevant, I
suppose, but it often seemed to be more of an exercise in accounting
than generalship.

To this day I shy away from games where the units have
morale/movement/combat factors visible in the interface. ACOW was
perhaps an exception to the rule, because although the numbers were
visible, they only gave a rough idea of what the unit might actually
achieve, the calculations behind the scenes being so complex.

In my experience, and as far as I can remember,the games that have done
the best job in this regard have been Combat Mission and Highway to the
Reich. Both hide the detail sufficiently to force the player to think
about what to do in terms of real life rather than in terms of achieving
the most favourable odds on the CRT.

HTTR, which I've just recently started playing, gives you the makeup of
the unit in weaponry and manpower and an indication of such factors as
fatigue and morale, but nothing you could use with any mathematical
precision. When you want to take an objective, you look at what you've
got, what you think the enemy has got, and make the best decision you
can as to how to do it, pretty much as Gavin and Urqhuart would have had to.

Combat Mission only showed what firepower a unit could lay down at
various ranges and I even would have preferred to see that left out. It
was interesting to see a number of requests on the Battlefront forums
for the internal tables to be published. I got the impression that,
without factors and stats to number-crunch, these players were at a loss
to know what to do.

As an aside, I'm also not 100% convinced by some games' attempts to
model real-world physics. If using a set of combat/hit/kill tables
(hidden from the player and unpublished, of course) gives you a
realistic outcome, why not put the effort saved into producing a more
"intelligent" AI (which seems to be something of a rarity)?

Paul
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Arjuna

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Since: Mar 13, 2005
Posts: 95



(Msg. 9) Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:01 pm
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Patrick,

Great discusion topic. Well done and thanks.

One thing though I had a chuckle to myself when I read your comment
about wanting to know what was going on under the hood and then your
later point about avoiding complexity. I think if you saw the
complexity that was under the hood, certainly in games such as our HTTR
and COTA, you would eschew that desire. To simulate realism in one of
the most complex of activiites - ie military conflict - you have to get
your hands dirty and delve into the complexities. Assuming we were
willing to publish our code ( and we're not just for the record ) how
many people would spend the time to wade through over half a million
lines of code. That's about the equivalent of a 15,000 page novel.

Besides as others have noted here is that what you really play wargames
for. One of the reasons I got into designing them in the first place
was that I thought few if any I had played - and I had played a lot -
ever came close to providing the player with a realistic experience of
what a real commander does. My own limited military experience and all
the reading I had done convinced me that no commander sits down with
his calculator and says that if I can get that extra unit there with
those two extra armour points I'll have enough to push me into the next
CRT column. It just doesn't work like that.

Sure commanders try to maximise their chance of success and they
realise the need for applying the different types of capabilities their
units provide to their best advantage but so much of it relies on
instinct. So much is intuitive. So much is on how they feel and smell
the battle. That is probably why few good field commanders make good
accountants and vice versa. I don't mean any disrespect to any
accountants, god only knows a good one is worth their weight in gold.
But it's a different realm.

A good commander needs to know that if he bombards a particular area
with a battalion of 105s he should be able to suppress whatever enemy
are in the bombardment zone and that with a bit of luck ( ie he catches
them undeployed ) that he will also have a good chance of inflicting
some casualties. He knows that there will be dozens of other factors
beyond his current awareness or knowledge that will impact on the
effect of that bombardment - eg enemy morale, training, posture,
deployment etc. These he cannot know nor influence in any direct way.
However, he knows he needs to suppress the enemy there and that his
best bet is to bombard them. So he orders the bombardment.

So before I get too much into this - there's something else everyone
keeps telling me to do - I would argue that if the simulation feels
right, if it on average it produces a realistic outcome then run with
it. Sure you don't want to have cases where 100 x 20mm AT guns can have
enough firepower to destroy a King Tiger, but assuming the system
handles that type of thing correctly then the real test as to whether
it is worth playing is if it provides a realistic and enjoyable
simulation of being a commander. If it satisfies these two criteria
then go for it.
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Giftzwerg

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Since: Mar 23, 2005
Posts: 728



(Msg. 10) Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 5:30 pm
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In article <FJiTf.7370$j7.269251@news.indigo.ie>,
holditREMOVE.DeleteThis@THEindigoCAPS.ie says...

> > Who cares what's behind the interface?
>
> I might be wrong here, but I have a feeling that this wanting to know
> what's behind the interface is what happens when someone misses having a
> CRT and various other tables to refer to during play like they usually
> have with boardgames. Not only would I agree that this this information
> shouldn't be needed, I'd atually go so far as to say that it *should* be
> hidden.

Agreed. Even in games where this kind of information is available, I
eschew it. I don't mind it being available, because clearly many gamers
like having the extra info (Example: That "Combat Advisor" gizmo built
into KP/BIN/BII...), but I find that knowing all the nuts, bolts, and
charts jars me back into the sense I'm playing a game.

> When I first got into board wargames, starting with AH's Russian Front
> and SL/ASL, I rememember eagerly grabbing copies of The General for
> strategy tips, and being very disappointed to find that the articles
> largely seemed to concern themselves with statistical probabilities and
> means by which favourable odds ratios might be arrived at. Relevant, I
> suppose, but it often seemed to be more of an exercise in accounting
> than generalship.

And, ultimately, it's gamey. I loath games where a rules-lawyer can
wring ankle-biting little advantages out of every chart, rule, subrule,
and abstraction.

> In my experience, and as far as I can remember,the games that have done
> the best job in this regard have been Combat Mission and Highway to the
> Reich. Both hide the detail sufficiently to force the player to think
> about what to do in terms of real life rather than in terms of achieving
> the most favourable odds on the CRT.

Agreed. Exactly. TACOPS is another example.

--
Giftzwerg
***
"Let's see. What are Muslims raging, seething, and murdering people
about today? Ah. Yes. Cartoon drawings. Islam means peace, eh?"
- Giftzwerg
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cwie

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Since: Mar 19, 2006
Posts: 3



(Msg. 11) Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 6:55 pm
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[Patrick wrote]
> I'm not role-playing a battlefield commander anyway--I'm just
> playing a wargame.

A distinction that is too often blurred/ignored. For my tastes, I prefer to
'feel' the subject matter, but never lose sight of the fact that it's just a
game. But that's probably why turn-based, hex-map WW2 monster games work
for me! I've tried HOI (more than once) but just can't get my head into a
game that so often seems to be playing itself (with occasional interference
from me).

[Giftwerg wrote]
> And, ultimately, it's gamey. I loath games where a rules-lawyer can
> wring ankle-biting little advantages out of every chart, rule, subrule,
> and abstraction.

This is the biggest potential downfall of having knowledge of the
"internals" - humans are just too damn quick to twist any loophole to their
advantage.

[Mike Kreuzer wrote]
> Somebody'll think of something better with regard to scrolling & zooming
> though, give us some more time on this one

Well, CWiE-II is adding a slight variation to try and help with this. We've
got user defined displays where the player can create up to 16 different
views of the overall map, each with it's own set of customised overlays
(supply, ZOC, air range, etc). Switching between views is a single click or
keypress. So if the German wants to keep an eye on the fighting in the
East, the Italian front, and the Normandy landings, he simply creates 3
'views', and then switches between them when required. Each view can be
scrolled, and has a 'home' location that can be returned to with a single
click.
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cwie

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Since: Mar 19, 2006
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 7:55 pm
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> One reason I like Hearts of Iron so much is that it feels so much like
> I'm running a country during the war, instead of just playing a game.

I still plan on giving HOI (1 or 2) some more time. But for some reason
each time I've approached it, I end up feeling like I watch more that I
decide. Perhaps I'll find the time in the second half of this year to
finally get my head into the HOI mindset.

On the other hand, Battles In Italy was a simple pickup! But then again I'm
an SSG junkie from wayback.
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cwie

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(Msg. 13) Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 7:55 pm
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> There was a competition at gdevnet last month [1] for a game design that
> presented two simultaneous views of the same world. You could have blown
> their minds with sixteen.

Just checked the comp rules ... they wanted simultaneously displayed views.
CWiE-II has an overview showing the whole 160x135 hex map, and then anywhere
from 1 to 16 player defined 'closeup' views of the overall map. But only
one view is available at a time. The other views are just a click away
though!
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John Secker

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Since: Apr 02, 2005
Posts: 229



(Msg. 14) Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:55 pm
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In message <MPG.1e87173dbc2aebed98a67c.TakeThisOut@news-east.giganews.com>,
Giftzwerg <giftzwerg999.TakeThisOut@NOSPAMZ.hotmail.com> writes
>In article <1142737488.926612.80870.TakeThisOut@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
>patrick55carroll@yahoo.com says...
>
>> 1. What's behind the interface? When I played board wargames or
>> miniatures games, I always knew just what was going on--because I had
>> to do everything myself. If I wasn't sure how to handle something, I
>> had to look it up in the rulebook; and if it wasn't there, I had to
>> make a house rule to cover it. But computer games are often poorly
>> documented; and even when they're well documented, the player doesn't
>> *have* to study the rules. So, either for lack of documentation or
>> laziness about paying attention, computer wargames often become
>> something of a clickfest. I find myself just pushing pieces around and
>> seeing what happens. But most of the time I really don't know *why*
>> things are happening--and I don't have the patience or interest to slow
>> down and find out.
>
>Who cares what's behind the interface?
>
>So long as the system lets you do things that accurately reflect
>military reality in a realistic way, why would you even want to know
>what's going on behind the scenes? Personally speaking, I'd go a step
>further and say that the less I know about how the system "works," the
>more I can just concentrate on whatever task I'm trying to accomplish -
>and the better I can immerse myself in the fun of the simulation.
>
>For example, when I move Montcalm's army down Lake Champlain in BIRTH OF
>AMERICA, the game calculates hundreds of factors: supply, generalship,
>weather, units involved, path, etc, etc. But all I care about is how
>long it's going to take to move the forces, and what route I'm setting;
>the fact that the game system handles all these other things invisibly
>is a *feature*, not a *bug*.
>
Hmmm, logical, Captain, but I understand where Patrick is coming from.
When you had to do all the calculations yourself, you were aware of the
factors which were influencing the result. If the stack you are moving
includes artillery, which is particularly badly affected by the muddy
roads in winter, then you knew this. You could leave the guns behind, or
wait for spring. But when the mechanics are all handled by the computer,
it is very easy to just try things, without properly understanding the
important influences. Very lazy, no doubt - but in my personal
experience, hard to resist. Especially in the bigger games - BV, for
example (don't mention WitP). That stack looks pretty big, let's attack
over there against that small stack. Ooops! Ideally, of course, the
factors which were making a difference would be brought to your
attention, without your having to understand the actual mechanics behind
them.
--
John Secker
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Giftzwerg

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Since: Mar 23, 2005
Posts: 728



(Msg. 15) Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:21 am
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In article <Ds7mUIGScfHEFwhX DeleteThis @secker.demon.co.uk>,
john DeleteThis @secker.demon.co.uk says...

> >So long as the system lets you do things that accurately reflect
> >military reality in a realistic way, why would you even want to know
> >what's going on behind the scenes? Personally speaking, I'd go a step
> >further and say that the less I know about how the system "works," the
> >more I can just concentrate on whatever task I'm trying to accomplish -
> >and the better I can immerse myself in the fun of the simulation.
> >
> >For example, when I move Montcalm's army down Lake Champlain in BIRTH OF
> >AMERICA, the game calculates hundreds of factors: supply, generalship,
> >weather, units involved, path, etc, etc. But all I care about is how
> >long it's going to take to move the forces, and what route I'm setting;
> >the fact that the game system handles all these other things invisibly
> >is a *feature*, not a *bug*.
> >
> Hmmm, logical, Captain, but I understand where Patrick is coming from.
> When you had to do all the calculations yourself, you were aware of the
> factors which were influencing the result. If the stack you are moving
> includes artillery, which is particularly badly affected by the muddy
> roads in winter, then you knew this. You could leave the guns behind, or
> wait for spring. But when the mechanics are all handled by the computer,
> it is very easy to just try things, without properly understanding the
> important influences. Very lazy, no doubt - but in my personal
> experience, hard to resist. Especially in the bigger games - BV, for
> example (don't mention WitP). That stack looks pretty big, let's attack
> over there against that small stack. Ooops! Ideally, of course, the
> factors which were making a difference would be brought to your
> attention, without your having to understand the actual mechanics behind
> them.

Try this thought-experiment, though. Suppose we create the *perfect*
wargame, that simulates the job of a regimental commander with 100%
fidelity. It can calculate every leaf, every branch, every bullet,
every man, every breath of air in a regimental action - and presents an
interface that features 100% accurate maps, perfect holographic digital
actors playing the subordinate and superior officers and staff, and
real-time FOW concerns and delays.

If this game were *perfect*, it could even survive a Turing test, with a
real regimental commander unable to tell if he was participating in a
simulation, or fighting a real battle.

The point is that we could take a *real* regimental commander and drop
him into our perfect wargame, and he wouldn't need to know *anything*
about how the system worked. He could just command his regiment the way
he'd been trained to do, and let the system worry about the nuts & bolts
details of all the zillions of things that have to happen before his
order - "howitzer platoon to shell enemy position at map reference
Baker" - is translated into reality.

This is wonderfully realistic, in that the real regimental commander -
if he was *insane* - might want to oversee every facet of how his order
is translated into reality. He might want to "look under the hood" of
his own regiment. But he can't. In battle, he can't pull out his
nifty-neat Attack Factor Measurement Tool and run a series of
calculations resulting in a neat chart of percentages corresponding to
his proposed company assault at Phase Line Montana. All he can do is
figure the percentages in his head, based on his experience and
intelligence, and go from there.

Of course, none of our wargames are "perfect," but some of them are
pretty good. In HTTR, the best example I've seen yet, I delight in the
fact that I don't need to know Thing One about how Panther built the
thing. I don't care! The only thing I need to know to play HTTR - and
play it pretty well - is how real battalions can be used in reality.

Perhaps Oddball, the tank commander from "Kelly's Heroes," said it best.
When asked why he wasn't helping his crew repair the damaged Sherman, he
replied, "I just ride in 'em. I don't know what makes 'em work."

That's the way I want my wargames.

--
Giftzwerg
***
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before I trust Congress with my wallet."
- Gregory Scoblete
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