A darker shade of magic...

Elfbard wrote:
> Maybe their fireballs/lightning/etc start shifting in hue till they go black
> and switch to doing negative energy damage rather than fire/shock/etc.

That's good. The challenge here is that I don't want it to be
immediately obvious to the caster's companions that something is
different, or at least that the caster is the cause. I know they'll
figure it out, and it will become more and more apparent as the
corruption grows, but I'd like to hold on to the mystery as long as
possible.

Something like: if a wizard uses a Dark Magic charm spell on someone,
it works as normal for the usual duration as far as the wizard is
concerned. After the wizard's influence wears off, though, the Dark
Magic retains control over the victim for a little while longer,
compelling behavior of which the wizard is unaware and did not intend.

--
Jay Knioum
The Mad Afro
 >> Stay informed about: A darker shade of magic... 

In article <1146619306.867182.128370.TakeThisOut@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
madafro.TakeThisOut@grandecom.net says...

> Anyway, that's the basic idea, none of which I'm married to beyond
> wanting to do something to reflect this darker influence on magic
> throughout the world without automatically screwing over spellcasting
> classes. Looking for creative energy here, and inspiration. Any
> takers?

The Taint rules in Heroes of Horror might be worth looking at.

Basically, there are three mental and three physical categories of Taint
(five if you count "not tainted" and "dead"), with higher Wis and Con
meaning you can take on more Taint without going up a category.

When you do go up a category, you get some sort of debilitating effect,
but also a bonus feat, and there are feats in the book that work off
Taint, and work better the more tainted you are.

There are two PrCs, a tainted warrior guy and a tainted arcanist guy,
that can hide their physical Taint, and get powers based on Taint.

They might not be quite right (for example, instead of being a slow
corruptive seduction, it's more like a terrible disability which can
suddenly be turned to your advantage if you take the PrC, and which can
again turn into terrible disability if you misjudge and happen to kill
yourself through overdosing on Taint), but they'd be worth a look, I
think.


--
Jasin Zujovic
 >> Stay informed about: A darker shade of magic... 

In article <1146664841.609226.35650.TakeThisOut@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>,
madafro.TakeThisOut@grandecom.net says...

> > Maybe their fireballs/lightning/etc start shifting in hue till they go black
> > and switch to doing negative energy damage rather than fire/shock/etc.
>
> That's good. The challenge here is that I don't want it to be
> immediately obvious to the caster's companions that something is
> different, or at least that the caster is the cause.

What about the caster? How much does he know about the Dark magic slots
and the risks he's taking and the rewards he's getting?


--
Jasin Zujovic
 >> Stay informed about: A darker shade of magic... 

Jasin Zujovic wrote:
> In article <1146664841.609226.35650.TakeThisOut@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>,
> madafro.TakeThisOut@grandecom.net says...
>
> > > Maybe their fireballs/lightning/etc start shifting in hue till they go black
> > > and switch to doing negative energy damage rather than fire/shock/etc.
> >
> > That's good. The challenge here is that I don't want it to be
> > immediately obvious to the caster's companions that something is
> > different, or at least that the caster is the cause.
>
> What about the caster? How much does he know about the Dark magic slots
> and the risks he's taking and the rewards he's getting?
>
>
> --
> Jasin Zujovic

What if the Dark Slot doubled when its confirmed that a caster has gone
the way
of the Dark Side for probably the remainder of thier life???

-Dragonkat- Insanity is relative
 >> Stay informed about: A darker shade of magic... 

Jasin Zujovic wrote:
> In article <1146664841.609226.35650.DeleteThis@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>,
> madafro.DeleteThis@grandecom.net says...
>
> > > Maybe their fireballs/lightning/etc start shifting in hue till they go black
> > > and switch to doing negative energy damage rather than fire/shock/etc.
> >
> > That's good. The challenge here is that I don't want it to be
> > immediately obvious to the caster's companions that something is
> > different, or at least that the caster is the cause.
>
> What about the caster? How much does he know about the Dark magic slots
> and the risks he's taking and the rewards he's getting?

OOC, at least one of the players was around for the previous campaign,
where it was understood by implication that magic would take a turn for
the uncomfortable, although I didn't get specific.

IC, spellcasters have seen some pretty obvious signs that things are
different; not the least of which is the blue moon Pwixac turning a
couple shades darker in the sky (explained "briefly" in my summary
upthread). On a personal level, they probably feel somewhat euphoric,
clear-headed, and able to understand their formulae better, or are able
to concentrate with much more fluidity when they pray or summon energy.
In essence, magic feels better, easier, quicker, and more seductive.

In game terms, the Dark Magic slot is my way of abstracting the
boundary between "going with the flow" of this euphoric feeling about
magic, or staying disciplined. The extra slot at the beginning nags at
the caster as untapped potential where none existed before, and the
corrupted slots later on feel like heretofore undiscovered levels of
mastery. It feels like anything but a risk; after all, "I can quit
anytime I want."

I imagine there are any number of clerics and the like who have felt
queasy about these sensations, and have tried to divine their nature.
I'm worming my way through that, as well.

--
Jay Knioum
The Mad Afro
 >> Stay informed about: A darker shade of magic... 

Jasin Zujovic wrote:
> In article <1146619306.867182.128370.DeleteThis@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> madafro.DeleteThis@grandecom.net says...
>
> > Anyway, that's the basic idea, none of which I'm married to beyond
> > wanting to do something to reflect this darker influence on magic
> > throughout the world without automatically screwing over spellcasting
> > classes. Looking for creative energy here, and inspiration. Any
> > takers?
>
> The Taint rules in Heroes of Horror might be worth looking at.
>
> Basically, there are three mental and three physical categories of Taint
> (five if you count "not tainted" and "dead"), with higher Wis and Con
> meaning you can take on more Taint without going up a category.
>
> When you do go up a category, you get some sort of debilitating effect,
> but also a bonus feat, and there are feats in the book that work off
> Taint, and work better the more tainted you are.

I had thought of picking up that book a while back, but didn't. Looks
like the upcoming game will be dark enough in tone (for reasons
unrelated to this whole Dark Magic thing) that I should revisit the
book.

So how do you acquire Taint based on these rules? I'm looking for a
kind of corruption that speaks specifically to spellcasters, and comes
at them through spellcasting if at all possible, although I'll drop
that in favor of something more interesting.

>
> There are two PrCs, a tainted warrior guy and a tainted arcanist guy,
> that can hide their physical Taint, and get powers based on Taint.
>
> They might not be quite right (for example, instead of being a slow
> corruptive seduction, it's more like a terrible disability which can
> suddenly be turned to your advantage if you take the PrC, and which can
> again turn into terrible disability if you misjudge and happen to kill
> yourself through overdosing on Taint), but they'd be worth a look, I
> think.

This sounds like something I might employ in the future as things
progress and the evil grows stronger (if that happens). Right now, it's
still too early in the process for PrCs or templates to have developed,
although I have grand if vague ideas about living, corpulent,
defiler-types wielding hideous magic while unwittingly doing the
bidding of this evil.

--
Jay Knioum
The Mad Afro
 >> Stay informed about: A darker shade of magic... 

The Mad Afro wrote:
> I'm looking for ways to apply a simple, thematic/mechanical change to
> magic to reflect the subtle influence of evil on all spellcasting, and
> spellcasters, in the world.
>

<Snip explanation>

>
> Anyway, that's the basic idea, none of which I'm married to beyond
> wanting to do something to reflect this darker influence on magic
> throughout the world without automatically screwing over spellcasting
> classes. Looking for creative energy here, and inspiration. Any
> takers?

While I can't offer advice on roleplaying this, A good way to track the
gradual change would be the Taint rules in Unearthed arcana: By using he
free slot, the caster increases his taint by one. As the taint score
rises, alter the descriptions you give as others have suggested...
Even better, don't let the PCs know their taint score... Let them wonder
how far down the slippery slope into evil they have fallen ^___^

--
Patriarch
^_^ oO(imagine the paranoia!)
 >> Stay informed about: A darker shade of magic... 

In article <1146692564.207322.139110.TakeThisOut@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
madafro.TakeThisOut@grandecom.net says...

> [Heroes of Horror]
>
> So how do you acquire Taint based on these rules? I'm looking for a
> kind of corruption that speaks specifically to spellcasters, and comes
> at them through spellcasting if at all possible, although I'll drop
> that in favor of something more interesting.

IIRC, it's not strictly defined, there are different suggestions
depending on what you want to do with the campaign: at the very extreme,
killing could earn you Taint. Yes, even in self defense.

Acts of great evil, casting evil spells, hanging around in Tainted
areas, using the abilities which work off Taint, getting attacked by
Taint spreading monsters also work.

There's two different scales of Taint (mental and physical, depravity
and corruption) and there are things that will give you one but not the
other, and Taint-using feats which need degrees of one but not the
other, so I don't think you'd have problems using just those that work
with depravity, and picking and choosing sources of Taint to suit your
game, so that, for example, even brutal killing is safe as far as Taint
goes, but spellcasting isn't.


--
Jasin Zujovic
 >> Stay informed about: A darker shade of magic... 

Dragonkat wrote:

> What if the Dark Slot doubled when its confirmed that a caster has gone
> the way
> of the Dark Side for probably the remainder of thier life???

It seems to me that once the caster has become lost to all that is good
and decent, he'll cease to be a member of his own race and become
Something Else that serves the evil behind it all. Dark Slots might
not even be relevant at that point, as the purpose behind them was to
drive the caster to this stage.

However, a last boost of power might be the carrot that finally drives
them over the edge, certainly.

--
Jay Knioum
The Mad Afro
 >> Stay informed about: A darker shade of magic... 

The Mad Afro wrote:

> This sounds like something I might employ in the future as things
> progress and the evil grows stronger (if that happens). Right now, it's
> still too early in the process for PrCs or templates to have developed,
> although I have grand if vague ideas about living, corpulent,
> defiler-types wielding hideous magic while unwittingly doing the
> bidding of this evil.
>

Deflilers were the first things that came to mind when you first
posted. If you wanted to avoid the slot thing that was come up with
later, and allow the 'dark magic' to be available at any time.

A small ammount of damage applied to plants in the area, eventually
getting to hp applied to all living things in the area at higher level.

Benefits could be +1 caster level to begin with. growing into other
things later like metamagic.

You can start it off with no known side effects - just tell the
players, you can apply a +1 caster level to any spells that they want.
If they happen to cast near some plants, they brown, or shrivel.

If you do want to go with the slots idea, what I would suggest would be
don't tell them they have any extra slots, but the first time they say
they are out of spells of a particular level, tell them "You don't feel
quite as exhausted as you normally would after all that spellcasting,
you feel as if you could squeeze out another spell."

To make it extra tempting, have it be spontaneous for the prep casters
- so they can choose anything they know already, and for the
spontaneous casters, it could be anything on thier list even if they
don't know it.

After they use it the first time, it's always there waiting for them to
use it. Just waiting. Calling out to be used. A versatile slot for
those sorcerers, and an extra and sponanteous spell for the wizards.
Just waiting. Tempting.

I had a corrupting evil/undead god back in 2e days Sunaru. He was THE
dead god. Nearly equal in power to the king of the gods. He was
always tempting the wizards, etc. If you said his name even once, it
allowed him to speak to you. He was always offering up more knowledge
of spells. Saying things like "You want to know the wish spell? Just
say my name and you will know. SAY IT!". If you said his name often
enough you would eventually become undead, and truely his. There were
two characters who gave in to him over the course of several campaigns.
I had it so that if you said his name 3 times in a row you would
release him from his prison into the world. One of the characters
eventually did this. I had armageddon for a minute, before the gods
could interact and put him back. Of course this left a lot of undead
all over. Basically everything and everyone that was ever alive came
back to unlife. Leather wasn't too popular for awhile.

- Justisaur
 >> Stay informed about: A darker shade of magic... 

The Mad Afro wrote:

> This sounds like something I might employ in the future as things
> progress and the evil grows stronger (if that happens). Right now, it's
> still too early in the process for PrCs or templates to have developed,
> although I have grand if vague ideas about living, corpulent,
> defiler-types wielding hideous magic while unwittingly doing the
> bidding of this evil.
>

Deflilers were the first things that came to mind when you first
posted. If you wanted to avoid the slot thing that was come up with
later, and allow the 'dark magic' to be available at any time.

A small ammount of damage applied to plants in the area, eventually
getting to hp applied to all living things in the area at higher level.

Benefits could be +1 caster level to begin with. growing into other
things later like metamagic.

You can start it off with no known side effects - just tell the
players, you can apply a +1 caster level to any spells that they want.
If they happen to cast near some plants, they brown, or shrivel.

If you do want to go with the slots idea, what I would suggest would be
don't tell them they have any extra slots, but the first time they say
they are out of spells of a particular level, tell them "You don't feel
quite as exhausted as you normally would after all that spellcasting,
you feel as if you could squeeze out another spell."

To make it extra tempting, have it be spontaneous for the prep casters
- so they can choose anything they know already, and for the
spontaneous casters, it could be anything on thier list even if they
don't know it.

After they use it the first time, it's always there waiting for them to
use it. Just waiting. Calling out to be used. A versatile slot for
those sorcerers, and an extra and sponanteous spell for the wizards.
Just waiting. Tempting.

I had a corrupting evil/undead god back in 2e days Sunaru. He was THE
dead god. Nearly equal in power to the king of the gods. He was
always tempting the wizards, etc. If you said his name even once, it
allowed him to speak to you. He was always offering up more knowledge
of spells. Saying things like "You want to know the wish spell? Just
say my name and you will know. SAY IT!". If you said his name often
enough you would eventually become undead, and truely his. There were
two characters who gave in to him over the course of several campaigns.


I had it so that if you said his name 3 times in a row you would
release him from his prison into the world. One of the characters
eventually did this. I had armageddon for a minute, before the gods
could interact and put him back. Of course this left a lot of undead
all over. Basically everything and everyone that was ever alive came
back to unlife. Leather wasn't too popular for awhile.

- Justisaur
 >> Stay informed about: A darker shade of magic... 

Keith Davies wrote:
> The Mad Afro <madafro.DeleteThis@grandecom.net> wrote:
> > I'm looking for ways to apply a simple, thematic/mechanical change to
> > magic to reflect the subtle influence of evil on all spellcasting, and
> > spellcasters, in the world.
> >
> > Without getting into backstory, let's just say that due to monumental
> > events in the last campaign, magic as a whole (arcane and divine) IMC
> > is undergoing a subtle nudge toward evil. The emphasis is on subtle,
> > and by extension, should be simple to implement in game terms without
> > sacrificing balance (or at least keep the disruption of balance to a
> > minimum).
>
> Since it's dealing with spellcasters, why not link it to certain
> feats, or the use thereof? I can see a couple of ways to do this.

Keith, once again you demonstrate your ability to pull a realized
mechanic out of the fires of a vague idea. Bear with me, though; I'm
not particularly agile this morning...

>
> 1. All spellcasters an additional feat slot, to be spent on Metamagic
> or what I call 'Spell' feats (those that modify how you cast
> spells, without changing the spell level -- Eschew Materials, Spell
> Focus, etc.). Consider giving an addition such bonus ever two
> spell levels (so Wiz 5, 9, 13, 17). If you don't use these feats,
> no corruption. If you do, corruption (or the chance, at least).
>
> You can still use *other* Metamagic or Spell feats safely, it's
> only the feats taken with these extra slots.

The only potential hiccup is that it may remove some of the ongoing
temptation to use Dark Magic as situations change or become more
desperate. Once you devote a Dark Feat to, say, Eschew Materials, it
will always be Eschew Materials. Under the Dark Spell Slot concept,
they have the ability to stick whatever spell they want into that slot;
the versatility may increase the likelihood that it will get used.

This isn't a deal-breaker, though. I like your idea above very much,
and may be more thematically appropriate in practice. It also would
mean less bookkeeping for NPC casters; not having to keep track of
which spells are Dark Spells, and how many a caster has, might be nice.


>
> 2. Give 'metamagic discounts'. You can take and use Metamagic and
> Spell feats safely enough... but you can call on greater power when
> you 'need to'. For every level you reduce the metamagic cost (to a
> minimum of 0), you (potentially?) suffer corruption.

Does this mean the caster can reduce the metamagic cost by whatever
amount he wants to at the time, and that amount is then applied to his
Corruption amount?

>
> You could also combine them -- bonus slots that always apply, and the
> ability to call on greater power if needed. Your Wiz5 takes Quicken
> Spell at fifth level with his Dark slot, pops off a Quickened
> /fireball/... 8 points of corruption.

Also good.

>
> Now, what does corruption mean? There are several ways to handle
> that, too.
>
> 1. Simply accumulate it. When a certain amount is accumulated,
> *doom*. I don't like this one much.

Nor do I. I'm not after an all-or-nothing situation, but a slow burn.

>
> 2. Accumulate it. As certain limits are reached, *automatically*
> apply the effects. Get 20 dark points, your metamagic costs are
> automatically reduced by 1 -- you get no say in it. You've been
> calling on the dark side, it's become habit. You can draw more if
> you want, of course. At 50 dark points, metamagic costs are
> reduced by 2. At 100, by 3. And so on. (Numbers made up.)
> Perhaps at some point you automatically use the metamagics, whether
> you want to or not (you have 2 'free' metamagic levels, so you
> always have to have at least +2 worth of metamagics on your
> spells).

So as they progress past a certain point, they automatically draw more
corruption whether or not they want it, unless they quit metamagic cold
turkey. That's pretty evil.

>
> 3. As 2., but allow saves (to avoid accumulation in the first place,
> or to avoid automatic use).

I might allow saves for a time, but after an arbitrary point has been
passed, their ability to resist is gone.

Next thing to do is figure out what other effects might occur as
Corruption progresses. I still like the idea of reducing physical stats
as the dark magic takes a toll. This is especially important for
casters like rangers, bards, and paladins who have more options in
combat in addition to magic; I want the Dark Magic to make those
options less attractive by draining away at their ability to fight
while increasing the power or utility of their spells. Ideally, these
people will like the additional power so much that they'll start taking
levels in a pure-caster class and eschew the sword forever.

> Are dark spells detectable as such? Either through /detect magic/
> (the weaker option, IMO), or through changed sensory effects? Would
> the changes be consistent ('always turn black') or vary by caster
> (with one they are accompanied by the screams of the dead, another
> they have an unnatural chill to them -- even fire magics, etc.)?

Elfbard touched on this, as well. The Evil ultimately behind all this
has the advantage of being imperceptible to most creatures, even
dieties. While this doesn't completely trickle down to Dark Magic, I'd
like the effects on the spells themselves to be very subtle; this is
not demonic, in-your-face evil at work, but the kind that simmers so
delicately that even the corrupted caster herself may not be aware of
the true nature of things until they are way too far down the path, and
at that point they may not care.

So to answer your question, dark spells would not reveal themselves to
others as such until a certain level of corruption is attained.
However, I described before how Dark Magic feels euphoric and ecstatic
to the caster above and beyond untainted magic; it may be the caster's
own mannerisms that let others know something wierd is going on.

However, I want to maintain as much ambiguity as possible on all this
for as long as possible. The second I declare that a wizard's Fireball
has howling skulls floating in it, the game is up.

--
Jay Knioum
The Mad Afro
 >> Stay informed about: A darker shade of magic... 

....you are surprised by a sentence that starts with...

The Mad Afro wrote:
<snip>
> Keith, once again you demonstrate your ability to pull a realized
> mechanic out of

....but then continues...

> the fires of a vague idea.

Or is it just me?

LL
 >> Stay informed about: A darker shade of magic...