-crawl- Surviving with a DECj?

Jason C. DeWilde wrote:
> Greetings. I've been running a steady stream of DECjs lately, with very
> little success. My most recent character also happens to be the best
> mage run i've ever had. I ended up dying to an unseen horror in the
> main dungeon after I had finished clearing a hive on the same level. I
> had run into it at least twice before it actually killed me, but I was
> forced to stay on the level and clear the hive for food, which I was
> running low on.

Unseen horrors are a real problem, obviously. It probably would've been
better to go down or get to a branch rather than take chances with one.
If you've encountered one on a level with corridors, you might be able
to beat it, otherwise teleport as soon as it first hits.

> I was on my way back to a jewelry shop on dl 5 when the unseen horror
> caught up with me, unfortunately for good. What i'm looking for are a
> few tips that could help me survive longer with these mage types.

I'll tell you how I go with a DECj and hope it helps.

> You are on level 8.
> You worship Sif Muna.
> Sif Muna is greatly pleased with you.

I prefer Vehumet. Channeling energy is helpful. So is the additional
skill with conjurations while praying. The books are good because you
know what you'll get, including the big two conjurations.

> You are not hungry.
>
> Inventory:
> Hand weapons
> a - a +1,+2 elven dagger
> x - a +2,+1 blowgun
> y - the +3,-4 whip of X Kisybi (weapon)
> (You found it on level 4 of the Dungeon)
> It affects your AC (+2).
> It affects your evasion (+2).
> It affects your dexterity (+3).
>
> O - a +1,+0 bow of frost

The whip is pretty good but I don't know why you'd carry a bow or
blowgun. I look for a weapon of protection to use until I get a staff
of conjuration. I still try to check out all artifact weapons for
abilities like see invisible and prevent teleport.

> Magical devices
> d - a wand of random effects (11)
> j - a wand of magic darts (9)
> q - a wand of paralysis (0)
> v - a wand of frost (6)
> H - a wand of fire (

As you figured out, the wand of fire was your best bet against the
horror other than fleeing.

> You have 0 experience left.
>
> Skills:
> - Level 1 Short Blades
> - Level 1 Staves
> + Level 4 Dodging
> + Level 3 Stealth
> + Level 9 Spellcasting
> + Level 13 Conjurations
> + Level 10 Fire Magic

It was probably too early to do it, but you want to train fighting by
beating on plants with your dagger or a staff. I would have been
training earth magic by now.

> Your Spells Type Success
> Level
> a - Magic Dart Conjuration Excellent 1
> b - Conjure Flame Fire/Conjuration Excellent 3
> c - Throw Flame Fire/Conjuration Excellent 2
> d - Fireball Fire/Conjuration Very Good 6

You're missing Bolt of Magma. It's not the greatest spell ever.
However, it trains earth magic, works at close range, and you can
sometimes kill a couple monsters with a single cast. Fireball is very
good for the Orcish Mines. Conjure Flame is helpful if you remember to
use it

After Vehumet delivers the Book of Power, I'll learn Bolt of Iron. It's
tough enough to take out a hydra with one or two shots. The Book of
Anihilations has Mystic Blast, Fire Storm, and Crystal Spear. I'm
always hoping for the right enchantments-- Selective Amnesia,
Repel/Deflect Missiles, maybe Confusing Touch as a trainer spell,
Haste, etc.-- and the right divinations, such as Detect Trap.

I admit that a mid to late game spell list isn't much help surviving an
unseen horror on D8. Hey, unseen horrors are bastards, so I avoid them
if I can. I happen to be playing a DECj now and I ran into one, and
unfortunately it was guarding the entrance to the Lair, which was
(double unfortunately) on an open level. It hit hard the first time but
I teleported and drank potions. I went back up and did the Mines all
the way through. I decided that I wanted to do the Lair next because
going further down the mainline only meant I'd probably run into
another horror. I checked the character dump to make sure I hadn't
forgotten about a ring of see invisible in a shop somewhere. I was out
of blinking and cure wounds, so my plan for emergencies was to read a
scroll of teleport and then drink a potion of berserk rage for the HP
boost. As it happens, I got lucky and killed it with two or three shots
from a wand of fire. Since the level was open the best I could do was
stay against the wall, but I did know where I encountered the horror
last so I had a pretty good idea what direction it would attack from.
 >> Stay informed about: -crawl- Surviving with a DECj? 

Jason C. DeWilde wrote:
> Greetings. I've been running a steady stream of DECjs lately, with very
> little success.

They take time to get a feel for; hang in there! Once you're able to
get them off the ground, they're pretty ridiculous except for the
fragility, and the ridiculousness can be used to make up for the
fragility.

> My most recent character also happens to be the best
> mage run i've ever had. I ended up dying to an unseen horror in the
> main dungeon after I had finished clearing a hive on the same level.

Oof, a one-two punch.

> I
> had run into it at least twice before it actually killed me, but I was
> forced to stay on the level and clear the hive for food, which I was
> running low on.

What Jeremey said. Although I probably wouldn't've done what Jeremey
said, despite the wisdom of it; I'd've made a point of assassinating it
-- part out of spite, and part for one actually sensible reason:
unhandled monsters on levels above you -- especially ones you can't see
and can kill you in a handful of turns -- make it dangerous to use
stair-scumming (going up one staircase and down another, going up a
staircase, opening a square of distance, and descending any staircase
including the one you came up, and related tricks), which is otherwise
a tremendous tool in the strategic toolbox.

On the other other hand, trying to do anything complicated on an
unfinished hive level is dangerous.

On the other^3 hand, the only thing that kills stairscumming more
thoroughly than than one dangerous enemy on the level above is a whole
swarm of dangerous enemies on the level above, and having access to
that tool might have turned out to be a question of life and death one
level below.

On the other^4 hand, a wand of digging or -- considering you were a
Moonie -- a source of Dig found on the levels below would've made
finishing off that UH once and for all a snap. Digging makes corridors.
UH in corridor + PC with almost any sort of distance attack at all
(including wands, even several of the resistables) = dead UH.

> I was on my way back to a jewelry shop on dl 5 when the unseen horror
> caught up with me, unfortunately for good. What i'm looking for are a
> few tips that could help me survive longer with these mage types.

This isn't controversial, but stay in light armour.

-- You start with Dodging and Stealth skills. They're essentially lost
XP once you step into heavy armour.
-- Stealth is no joke. Stealth lets you strike first. You *do* stab,
you just don't do it with a dagger.
-- If you're doing your job right, you'll primarily be damaged at a
distance if at all. Distance attacks? Dodging.
-- There's no shortage of weak enemies out there train Dodging, and
even train it early, if you insist.
-- But if you choose not to train dodging much at first, that's pretty
much OK too, since all mental skills are deeply discounted until level
5, with a gradual reduction in the discount until level 15. (On the
other hand, all the mental skills in the world won't help if a centaur
gets first strike on you. Won't happen if you're stealthy enough... if
you want, you can train your Stealth by just sitting around
regenerating MP... hey, that sounds familiar!)
-- You do your job right by getting the most damage out per turn
possible, and not running out of MP in the middle of combat. Anything
that raises fail rate, even slightly, is contrary to these two things.
What do all those little points of evasion penalty on heavy armour do?
They raise fail rate.

I ran a grey elven air elementalist in heavy armour for part of game
recently. (The character was run as an ersatz reaver, and had found
nice elven chain mail, and wanted some Armour skill to offset the
penalties that it charges even though it itself is a light armour.) He
survived that period. Took forever to get Armour up, though.

> Race : Deep Elf Res.Fire : + . . See Invis. : .

There are much worse things you could do with a ring slot; RNG willing,
there are better things too.

> Class : Conjurer Res.Cold : . . . Warding : .
> Worship : Sif Muna Life Prot.: . . . Conserve : .

Moonie is good for players who are just starting out with magic-users
IMO, in that you get to try out all sorts of stuff quickly and get some
experience with it, and throw it away if it turns out to be a dud. For
pulling on to a win, I'd say Vehumet is better for a variety of
reasons, unless you want to do some serious Alter Self sessions
(although these don't provide much that's useful to a pure conjurer) or
you're really aching to get Non-Conjurations Book XYZ relatively
quickly and assuredly.

> x - a +2,+1 blowgun

Still worth carrying at this point in the game IMO. Might even have
helped to secure an assassination of the UH -- they have a tendency to
flee rather than let you finish them off; poisoned UH's don't flee very
far.

> y - the +3,-4 whip of X Kisybi (weapon)
> (You found it on level 4 of the Dungeon)
> It affects your AC (+2).
> It affects your evasion (+2).
> It affects your dexterity (+3).

Short of a staff, you don't get much better than that.

> O - a +1,+0 bow of frost

Not worth carrying IMO; bows used unskilled are too inaccurate, all the
more so when firing bolts of frost/flame IIUC.

> // Cluttered inventory
> Magical devices
> d - a wand of random effects (11)
> j - a wand of magic darts (9)
> q - a wand of paralysis (0)

A weak enemy deliberately allowed to get next to you + a corridor + a
wand of paralysis = an unseen horror off your tail. In certain cases, a
paralyzed bee at a hive entrance = a hive off your tail. Etc. This one
can be powerful despite the fail rate. Shame about the lack of charges,
alas.

> v - a wand of frost (6)
> H - a wand of fire (

Had the UH's name written on it.

> Comestibles
> A - 17 honeycombs
> M - a meat ration

Yup, diving was still an option, especially since you had a source of
poison resistance sufficient for culinary use at least (the staff of
poison).

[snipped somehow: staff of poison]

If this was found before you met the bees, it definitely should've been
wielded for them. (IDing staves is a snap -- just wield one and cast
magic dart at the wall until it self-ID's.) If that's exactly what you
did do, or it wasn't available yet at that point, or you didn't know
that IDing staves is a snap (it's non-obvious), apologies for the fully
or partially unnecessary note.

> Skills:
> - Level 1 Short Blades
> - Level 1 Staves
> + Level 4 Dodging
> + Level 3 Stealth
> + Level 9 Spellcasting
> + Level 13 Conjurations
> + Level 10 Fire Magic

Definitely late enough to get started with Earth.

> You have 15 spell levels left.

This was a serious mistake, especially as a worshipper of Sif Muna.

> You know the following spells:
>
> Your Spells Type Success
> Level
> a - Magic Dart Conjuration Excellent 1
> b - Conjure Flame Fire/Conjuration Excellent 3
> c - Throw Flame Fire/Conjuration Excellent 2
> d - Fireball Fire/Conjuration Very Good 6

Bolt of Magma definitely should have been in there. Stone Arrow is iffy
for a Vehumite (it's an albatross around your neck if Selective Amnesia
takes forever to show up.) For a Moonie... take it.

BTW, if there was any way to safely retreat to a corridor immediately
after discovering the bee room, you probably could have taken them on
without a scratch with the help of Conjure Flame. It's a really
powerful spell if you take it seriously (like the man said, if you
remember to use it).

> Last Messages
>
> The bolt of fire hits something.
> H - a wand of fire

Probably a sign of another mistake: unless you'd JUST picked up this
wand, you should have already had it identified by zap-testing it at
the first thing you encountered that wouldn't be likely to kill you if
the wand happened to turn out to be Hasting. In the case of top-grade
attack wands like Fire, blowing a scroll of Identify on charge-ID can
also be worth it. Doing so is "expensive", but nothing's expensive if
it saves your life.

> It hits you!
> You die...

Oh, those two awful sentences, known well to all of us

> ..#..#.....####..#......# #.....
> .##..#.....# ##..#......####.....
> ..#..#########..........#........
> .<...........#......#'###........
> ###.######.%.#................#..
> #........#.#.#................#..
> #........#.#.#.#..............###
> #........#.#.#.###.........####
> #........#.#.#..@..........#
> #........#.# ##########...##
[...]

One space further west would've been ideal, as UH's have a tendency to
not politely remain on a compass direction for you, and the extra space
back would've equalled an extra space's worth of "corral" to pen it in.
A conjure flame in front if you, if time permitted, could also have
helped. Can't recall offhand, though, if they're afraid of Conjure
Flame, I must admit.

> 12 big kobolds (D:7)

Might've been a short blade of protection in the spoils of that kobold
room. Might well not've been.

I'd write more general advice, but it's late, and besides, I haven't
even written my long-promised YAVP story yet... :-[ Good luck and no
miscasts, and may your Orcish-Mines up-staircases always be free of
one-turn-murder mobs!

e.
 >> Stay informed about: -crawl- Surviving with a DECj? 

Jeremey Wilson wrote:
> Erik Piper wrote:

> I started a DEFE (in principle BOM isn't that much different from BOF,
> and otherwise the beginning's pretty much the same -- and I didn't want
> to deal with fighting for a fire book instead of ice). On the one
> hand, there's this:

Y'know, the discussion with Martin Read a while back about the
fire/earth starting book vs. the cold/air starting book has kind of
worked like slow-acting Convinceathol (available at finer drugstores
everywhere) on me since then. I'd say the arguments are only about
55/45 in favor of fire/earth:

Fire/Earth
+ fire is rarely-resisted and multiple-target
+ earth is never resisted
+ (...leading to:) no need to either replace one element in mid-game
with its opposite or
play out the game with no offense usable against a large portion of
endgame opponents
+ Imps are annoying, Ice Beasts are deadly
+ Conjure Flame stays relevant longer than Mephitic Cloud
+ No "dead" spell like Static Discharge is for a true conjurer
+ Top spell is single-element
- Bolt of Magma has reduced power due to dual-elementness and has
unreliable range
- Fireball is less flexible than Freezing Cloud
- Conjure Flame does less than Mephitic Cloud does if a Mephitic Cloud
would chuck wood
- Stone Arrow is pretty laughable

Ice/Air
- Err, for enough points to fudge the rest, it's simply the inverse of
the above.

At first, it looks like much more than 55/45. However, some of those
minuses for fire/earth deserve double weight. Really, the big problem
for ice/air is the forced choice between an awkward transition in
midgame or an awkward entire-rest-of-the-game. Doable with some
experience, still difficult for an advanced beginner.

e.
 >> Stay informed about: -crawl- Surviving with a DECj? 

Erik Piper wrote:
> Jeremey Wilson wrote:
> > Erik Piper wrote:
[snip longish discussion about armour-based vs. evasion-based
conjurers/characters in Crawl]

I have a feeling that the discussion is somehow diverting slightly into
whether dodge/stealth skills are useless instead of whether
armour-based is better or worse than evasion-based.

I'm not going to argue that dodge/stealth are useless -- far from it


However (in my personal opinion) armour route is safer. In my
experience with about 30 AC in heavy armour character is mostly safe
from all physical attacks from "standard" game monsters (cannot comment
on "bonus" monsters from "bonus" areas) -- with the notable exception
of Stone Giants. And 30 AC is not that hard to get if you invest into
armour skill with some determination (e.g. by keeping some experience
in pool at most times so that you train armour while you rest). If
you're lucky with AC jewellery you can get to "good enough" AC values
pretty early and with lowish armour skill.

Note, however, that my experience is with high AC high dexterity
character (high dex is an alternative to dodge skill in terms of
evasion), so the above conclusion is not *entirely* objective.


Anyways, if you look in short term effect of choosing heavy armour vs.
light armour you get:
- about -3 evasion malus (for -2 ev heavy armour vs. -1 ev light
armour) -- this is due to double heavy armour penalty -- both to
evasion and to dodging skill
- somewhat increased miscast chance (quite easily offset by extra
spellcasting-related skill levels)
- decreased stealth worth about 3 stealth skill levels for 40-50 au
(weight) heavy armour
- [typically] significantly increased AC
- much better effect of existing AC (guaranteed minimal damage
reduction vs. no guarantee in light armour)

For me, in short term effect heavy armour wins hands down. I'd much
rather know that many physical attacks can't do damage to me at all
rather than hope that evasion chance will work out in my favor. High AC
even helps with magic attacks -- though there's no guaranteed minimum
reduction there, so evasion is probably better unless your AC is
really-really high.

In longish term the choice is more muddled -- with heavy armour you
train armour skill (which increases your AC further), but with light
armour you train dodging and stealth -- which do have their own
significant benefits.


But taking it all together, in my opinion, it is much preferable to be
in heavy armour for most of the "tough" encounters. Since you often
cannot know in advance when a tough encounter will happen, I prefer to
walk in heavy armour. But if one's not lazy and has XP to burn, one
could also train dodging/stealth on easy monsters -- like I said
already, dodging&stealth are far from useless.

*sigh*... I really gotta run, sorry if this post doesn't make (much)
sense.
 >> Stay informed about: -crawl- Surviving with a DECj? 

Rubinstein wrote:

> Seriously, is Detect Creatures the same level as in b26? Also, Brent
> is not Linley and I don't know how much or whether at all they worked
> together, or in other words: does Brent know how certain things were
> meant to be initially?

Brent's responsible for b26, I think.

> The perfect solution IMO (for a future version, ok I start dreaming)

Okay, you're going about this entirely the wrong way. You need to
phrase things like this as, "Request for travel patch update", or
something. Start smaller than this, but try to trick Darshan into
adding a spell. Something minor. Like, "Darshan! In the next travel
patch, could you put Twist back in? I'm trying something." Then build
from there. As an alternative, eventually computing power will become
so tremendous that we will reach the Omega Point, after which an
infinitely powerful computer will generate 4.1 itself. So we could
wait for that.

> would be a split into 2 different spells: the old DC "as is" in b26
> (unpatched) plus a new "DC-deluxe" as level 6 spell which not only would
> include clear map but also the possibility to gain detailed information
> about detected monsters on the map (similar to a related Angband spell)

Just having detected creatures be in their true color at first casting
(like a slip into map view with monsters put on, maybe) would be
detailed info enough.

It'd be nice if there were a useful high-level Divinations spell.

--
Jeremey
 >> Stay informed about: -crawl- Surviving with a DECj? 

Jeremey Wilson wrote:
> Rubinstein wrote:
>
> > Seriously, is Detect Creatures the same level as in b26? Also, Brent
> > is not Linley and I don't know how much or whether at all they worked
> > together, or in other words: does Brent know how certain things were
> > meant to be initially?
>
> Brent's responsible for b26, I think.
>
> > The perfect solution IMO (for a future version, ok I start dreaming)
>
> Okay, you're going about this entirely the wrong way. You need to
> phrase things like this as, "Request for travel patch update", or
> something. Start smaller than this, but try to trick Darshan into
> adding a spell. Something minor. Like, "Darshan! In the next travel
> patch, could you put Twist back in? I'm trying something." Then build

Doesn't that kind of lack chutzpah, though? Although judging from what
I obsessively read (blush) of the pre-b26 rgrm discussions back in the
beginning of my Crawl career, Twist and Air Walk were both about
equally broken (I've never actually played any version that had either
one, so this whole spiel from me has some chutzpah of its own), there's
something jaw-dropping about cavalierly requesting the re-inclusion of
an unbalanced high-level spell than cavalierly requesting the
re-inclusion of an unbalanced low-level spell. And without some
jaw-dropping, you don't get that deer-in-the-headlights effect that
just might hypnotize Darshan into actually doing such a crazy thing.


e.
 >> Stay informed about: -crawl- Surviving with a DECj? 

Erik Piper wrote:
> Jeremey Wilson wrote:

> > Okay, you're going about this entirely the wrong way. You need to
> > phrase things like this as, "Request for travel patch update", or
> > something. Start smaller than this, but try to trick Darshan into
> > adding a spell. Something minor. Like, "Darshan! In the next travel
> > patch, could you put Twist back in? I'm trying something." Then build
>
> Doesn't that kind of lack chutzpah, though?

Hm. How bout, "Darshan, put Twist in or I'll steal your girlfriend."?

> Although judging from what
> I obsessively read (blush) of the pre-b26 rgrm discussions back in the
> beginning of my Crawl career, Twist and Air Walk were both about
> equally broken (I've never actually played any version that had either
> one, so this whole spiel from me has some chutzpah of its own),

No experience with either myself. My impression was that Twist had
been taken out not because it was broken but to make Warpers play
differently from all the other wizard-types.

Airwalk seems like it'd be a huge pain in the ass, which is a good
reason to put it back in.

Darshan! Some of us would like to try Twist and Airwalk. Could you
put it back in for the next travel patch update? Otherwise Erik will
steal your girlfriend.

Seriously, you know what would be awesome in the travel patch?
Searchable spellbooks. Like, Ctrl-F, type in "Dig" and get a list of
all the stashes with spellbooks with Dig in them. That would be
awesome. Unless that's already in there and I've missed it, which
wouldn't surprise me at all.

> there's
> something jaw-dropping about cavalierly requesting the re-inclusion of
> an unbalanced high-level spell than cavalierly requesting the
> re-inclusion of an unbalanced low-level spell. And without some
> jaw-dropping, you don't get that deer-in-the-headlights effect that
> just might hypnotize Darshan into actually doing such a crazy thing.
>

We could always try both. I'll go first.

Darshan, could you put Twist in the next travel patch update? I'm
trying something. And I think Rubinstein has some ideas about Detect
Creatures.

--
Jeremey
 >> Stay informed about: -crawl- Surviving with a DECj? 

Jeremey Wilson wrote:
> Erik Piper wrote:
> > Jeremey Wilson wrote:

[...]
> > there's
> > something jaw-dropping about cavalierly requesting the re-inclusion of
> > an unbalanced high-level spell than cavalierly requesting the
> > re-inclusion of an unbalanced low-level spell. And without some
> > jaw-dropping, you don't get that deer-in-the-headlights effect that
> > just might hypnotize Darshan into actually doing such a crazy thing.
> >
>
> We could always try both. I'll go first.
>
> Darshan, could you put Twist in the next travel patch update? I'm
> trying something. And I think Rubinstein has some ideas about Detect
> Creatures.

Darshan, could you put Air Walk back in in the next travel patch
update? I have some ideas about how it could create a fairer balance
for throwing-specialist Human Wanderers, who have been egregriously
neglected up until now.

(What do you think, Jeremey?)

e.
 >> Stay informed about: -crawl- Surviving with a DECj? 

Jeremey Wilson wrote:
> Erik Piper wrote:
>
>> d) You have to learn the Clear Map command.
>
> if you're not playing with a patched version and you don't have the
> clear map command, Detect Creatures is much, much less good.

The question is how Detect Creatures was initially meant to be and I
wonder if there ever was a discussion about clear map (whether it's
cheating or not). I agree in without clear map the spell is closed to
useless, but with it seems almost too good for such a low level spell.

>> [Dodging: 12 => cheap and free +6 =oEV]
>
> It's not a free +6 ring of evasion at all! It's a very costly +6 ring
> of evasion, since you need to actively train it. Dodging with a
> conjurer just doesn't train on its own.

I've already seen the skill rising from dodging ranged weapons (not sure
about dodging spells), though training "actively" this way would be
quite another story of course.

I agree with Erik: not occupying a ring slot *and* being permanent is
what I'd call "free" (assuming we don't talk about money). Anyway,
training Dodging isn't much more bothersome than training Armour, even
for a conjurer. As Erik said, low level sparring partner are always
available.

R.
--
"Try ballyhoo - it chokeberry not!"
(from an article about spam-art and dada...)
 >> Stay informed about: -crawl- Surviving with a DECj? 

Rubinstein <piborg RemoveThis @gmail.com> writes:
> The question is how Detect Creatures was initially meant to be and I
> wonder if there ever was a discussion about clear map (whether it's
> cheating or not).

The clear map command is a semi-backport from 4.1 alpha. If Brent
doesn't think it's cheating...

--
Darshan Shaligram <scintilla RemoveThis @gmail.com> Deus vult
 >> Stay informed about: -crawl- Surviving with a DECj? 

Darshan Shaligram wrote:
> Rubinstein <piborg DeleteThis @gmail.com> writes:
>> The question is how Detect Creatures was initially meant to be and I
>> wonder if there ever was a discussion about clear map (whether it's
>> cheating or not).
>
> The clear map command is a semi-backport from 4.1 alpha. If Brent
> doesn't think it's cheating...

You could take it this way: playing 4.1 (in its current state) is
impossible to play w/o cheating, anyway. So you need to import Zot traps
on D:1 and other prettiness as well!

Seriously, is Detect Creatures the same level as in b26? Also, Brent
is not Linley and I don't know how much or whether at all they worked
together, or in other words: does Brent know how certain things were
meant to be initially?

The perfect solution IMO (for a future version, ok I start dreaming)
would be a split into 2 different spells: the old DC "as is" in b26
(unpatched) plus a new "DC-deluxe" as level 6 spell which not only would
include clear map but also the possibility to gain detailed information
about detected monsters on the map (similar to a related Angband spell)

R.
--
"Try ballyhoo - it chokeberry not!"
(from an article about spam-art and dada...)
 >> Stay informed about: -crawl- Surviving with a DECj? 

Erik Piper wrote:
> The example character you're describing in this thread forces me to say
> for fairness's sake, or even just for the sake of not sounding like an
> arrogant fool: this character model can survive. But is it really
> something to recommend to an advanced beginner? As Darshan once said to
> me, "Advice XYZ of yours might be more applicable to beginners if you
> weren't doing <insert-ridiculous-Erik-project-of-that-moment-here>."
> You do far fewer ridiculous projects than I do, but you're still an
> advanced player and, as such, able to handle futzy things better than
> an advanced beginner is. I'd call heavy-armour DECj's futzy, but...
> perhaps that's open to (many-pages-long) debate.

Personally in my pre-win times and after a long-long break from Crawl
(does it qualify as an advanced beginner? ), I found heavy-armour
characters easier to start than otherwise.

But YMMV.

Getting back to what OP asked -- the suggestion some people are
advocating here is to try heavy armour route (i.e. put on the first
scale mail you find [or ring mail if it shows up first]) and see for
yourself how it goes. Some believe that it's easier to play Cj that way
(though some disagree completely)
 >> Stay informed about: -crawl- Surviving with a DECj? 

Jeremey Wilson wrote:

> Darshan! Some of us would like to try Twist and Airwalk. Could you
> put it back in for the next travel patch update? Otherwise Erik will
> steal your girlfriend.
>
> Seriously, you know what would be awesome in the travel patch?
> Searchable spellbooks. Like, Ctrl-F, type in "Dig" and get a list of
> all the stashes with spellbooks with Dig in them. That would be
> awesome. Unless that's already in there and I've missed it, which
> wouldn't surprise me at all.

Searchable spellbooks, *that* would be something! That's a very old wish
of mine and I dunno why I'd never suggested (*everybody* wants it,
right?). This seems so obvious to me that the only reason I can imagine
why it's not yet in, because it smells like a lot of (tedious?) work to
realise.

> Darshan, could you put Twist in the next travel patch update? I'm
> trying something. And I think Rubinstein has some ideas about Detect
> Creatures.

Yes, and if no one actually wants to steal your girlfriend, I've always
an open heart...

R.
--
"Try ballyhoo - it chokeberry not!"
(from an article about spam-art and dada...)
 >> Stay informed about: -crawl- Surviving with a DECj?