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Ben Finney

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Since: Jul 31, 2006
Posts: 55



(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:55 am
Post subject: A cornucopia of magic systems
Archived from groups: rec>games>frp>gurps (more info?)

Howdy all,

GURPS Basic Set outlines a college-categorised, spell-based magic
system; this is expanded in GURPS Magic, and an alternative
Improvisational Magic system is detailed.

Other magic systems, of greater and lesser compatibility with Magic,
are detailed in other sourcebooks: Spirits, Religion, Cabal, etc.

How much have you enjoyed each of the available magic systems in
various GURPS books? What type of campaigns have they worked best in?

To what extent have you combined these various magic systems with
other supernatural power systems (psionics, super-powers, mysterious
technology, etc.)? How did it work out?

Which systems suit which style of world? Which type of players enjoy
which systems?

--
\ "For mad scientists who keep brains in jars, here's a tip: why |
`\ not add a slice of lemon to each jar, for freshness?" -- Jack |
_o__) Handey |
Ben Finney

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Peter Meilinger

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Since: Nov 16, 2005
Posts: 70



(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:38 pm
Post subject: Re: A cornucopia of magic systems [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Ben Finney wrote:
> Howdy all,
>
> GURPS Basic Set outlines a college-categorised, spell-based magic
> system; this is expanded in GURPS Magic, and an alternative
> Improvisational Magic system is detailed.
>
> Other magic systems, of greater and lesser compatibility with Magic,
> are detailed in other sourcebooks: Spirits, Religion, Cabal, etc.
>
> How much have you enjoyed each of the available magic systems in
> various GURPS books? What type of campaigns have they worked best in?

I like a lot of the various GURPS magical systems, but the one
thing that's always annoyed me is that not a single one of them
is truly generic and universal. They're specific systems with
specific rules rather than a general framework that would
allow you to create any type of magical system you want.
For that reason, I like the Hero rules more when I'm trying
to create or emulate a certain type of magic.

> To what extent have you combined these various magic systems with
> other supernatural power systems (psionics, super-powers, mysterious
> technology, etc.)? How did it work out?

We had a Wild Cards game going for awhile, and we had all sorts
of non-superpowered characters running around. My character
was a Sharpshooter super-normal, for example, and another
character was a Highlander Immortal who was Trained By A
Master(*).

An important NPC was an ace, but her powers manifested
as magic and the GM used the Magic rules for her. She was
very powerful and versatile, since she had 300 or so points
to work with, the same as the PCs. She wasn't much when
it came to direct damage, but she could kick some serious
ass when using non-damage spells. I think she'd have been
unbalancing as a PC, but she worked pretty well as an NPC
because 1) she didn't really have the mindset of a combatant
and 2) the GM made sure she didn't get out of hand.

Pete

* - The Highlander Immortal only had one hand. I can't
remember if we decided that his regeneration didn't
regrow lost limbs or if it just worked very slowly and
his hand hadn't come back yet. In game terms, he
hadn't paid the points for Regrowth but the GM was
going to allow him to buy it with an extra time disad
if he wanted to.

Anyway, the character was also allowed to buy
skills that he hadn't used "on-screen" yet and
justify them by saying he'd known them all
along, being really really old and experienced
and all. At one point the player bought the
Three Part Staff skill, I think it was, and happily
wrote it down on his sheet. It was only then
he remembered his character only had one
hand and couldn't use two-handed weapons.
The look on his face was priceless. I think
he kept the skill for realism's sake, since
it was something the character would know
even if he couldn't use it at the moment.

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Wylie

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Since: Jul 07, 2005
Posts: 70



(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:07 pm
Post subject: Re: A cornucopia of magic systems [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Ben Finney wrote:
> Howdy all,
>
> GURPS Basic Set outlines a college-categorised, spell-based magic
> system; this is expanded in GURPS Magic, and an alternative
> Improvisational Magic system is detailed.
>
> Other magic systems, of greater and lesser compatibility with Magic,
> are detailed in other sourcebooks: Spirits, Religion, Cabal, etc.
>
> How much have you enjoyed each of the available magic systems in
> various GURPS books? What type of campaigns have they worked best in?
>
> To what extent have you combined these various magic systems with
> other supernatural power systems (psionics, super-powers, mysterious
> technology, etc.)? How did it work out?
>
> Which systems suit which style of world? Which type of players enjoy
> which systems?
>
> --
> \ "For mad scientists who keep brains in jars, here's a tip: why |
> `\ not add a slice of lemon to each jar, for freshness?" -- Jack |
> _o__) Handey |
> Ben Finney

We once had a lot of fun using 3rd ed psionics as magic in a low-magic
swords & sorcery type setting. It reflected the flexible and aspected
kinds of magic pretty well.

Ever since then I've toyed with a fantasy/traveller crossover where the
elves/dwarves/orcs etc were specialized breeds of human developed by
the ancients and "magic" is psionic based.

-wylie
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copeab

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Since: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 657



(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:17 pm
Post subject: Re: A cornucopia of magic systems [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Ben Finney wrote:
>
> How much have you enjoyed each of the available magic systems in
> various GURPS books? What type of campaigns have they worked best in?

I'm using the ritual magic system from Spirits in my Weird World War II
campaign because I wanted something lesh flashy thn the default magic
system. It has worked very well so far.

> To what extent have you combined these various magic systems with
> other supernatural power systems (psionics, super-powers, mysterious
> technology, etc.)? How did it work out?

My oldest GURPS setting still going* uses the default magic system
(with some changes**) along with psionics. The mix, has for the most
part, worked out well. It should be noted that while magic only
reappeared in the setting in 2007 (where the world's mana level got
raised by one level), magic and psionics are both generally understood
and detectable by science.

* cyberfantasy setting in 2049
** Spells are M/A and M/H, most missile spells do triple damage, there
is no automatic cost/time reduction for high skill

I've really wanted to use hex magic from GURPS Deadlands: Weird West
(with cards) but haven't had the chance yet.

Brandon
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Ben Finney

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Since: Jul 31, 2006
Posts: 55



(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:55 am
Post subject: Re: A cornucopia of magic systems [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Peter Meilinger" <p_meilinger.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> writes:

> Ben Finney wrote:
> > To what extent have you combined these various magic systems with
> > other supernatural power systems (psionics, super-powers,
> > mysterious technology, etc.)? How did it work out?
>
> We had a Wild Cards game going for awhile, and we had all sorts of
> non-superpowered characters running around. My character was a
> Sharpshooter super-normal, for example, and another character was a
> Highlander Immortal who was Trained By A Master(*).

Cool. That's where I'd expect just about any magic system to fit in
well; the Supers settings are pretty embracing of any supernatural
powers.

--
\ "I got some new underwear the other day. Well, new to me." -- |
`\ Emo Philips |
_o__) |
Ben Finney
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Ben Finney

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Since: Jul 31, 2006
Posts: 55



(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:55 am
Post subject: Re: A cornucopia of magic systems [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Wylie" <wylie72.RemoveThis@gmail.com> writes:

> We once had a lot of fun using 3rd ed psionics as magic in a
> low-magic swords & sorcery type setting. It reflected the flexible
> and aspected kinds of magic pretty well.

I expect it would have been more akin to the "sorcerous", manipulative
magic style rather than flamboyant elemental powers.

Did the GM employ a distrust of magic users by segments of the
population? Psionic "magicians" sound much more open to discrimination
and bigotry.

> Ever since then I've toyed with a fantasy/traveller crossover where
> the elves/dwarves/orcs etc were specialized breeds of human
> developed by the ancients and "magic" is psionic based.

Would this take place in the Third Imperium? How would the Imperium
feel about two independent psionic groups -- the Zhodani and the
Tolkeini -- on different parts of their border?

--
\ "There are always those who think they know what is your |
`\ responsibility better than you do." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson |
_o__) |
Ben Finney
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Ben Finney

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Since: Jul 31, 2006
Posts: 55



(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:55 am
Post subject: Re: A cornucopia of magic systems [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"copeab@yahoo.com" <copeab.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> writes:

> Ben Finney wrote:
> > How much have you enjoyed each of the available magic systems in
> > various GURPS books? What type of campaigns have they worked best
> > in?
>
> I'm using the ritual magic system from Spirits in my Weird World War
> II campaign because I wanted something lesh flashy thn the default
> magic system. It has worked very well so far.

That seems to be what draws many people to the spirit magic system:
the possibility to integrate magic more subtly into a setting, but
still with very powerful effects.

Which agencies use magic in your setting? The Thule Group? The
Kremlin? The Allies?

How has this affected the feel of the setting? How has it affected the
power level? Is it on a par with the TL7 technology, or is it more
subtle and less reliable?

> > To what extent have you combined these various magic systems with
> > other supernatural power systems (psionics, super-powers,
> > mysterious technology, etc.)? How did it work out?
>
> My oldest GURPS setting still going* uses the default magic system
> (with some changes**) along with psionics. The mix, has for the most
> part, worked out well. It should be noted that while magic only
> reappeared in the setting in 2007 (where the world's mana level got
> raised by one level), magic and psionics are both generally
> understood and detectable by science.

Cute. Was this planned in advance, or was magic added to develop the
existing setting further? What is the current game-time, i.e. how many
years have people had to deal with the combination of magic and
psionics?

> I've really wanted to use hex magic from GURPS Deadlands: Weird West
> (with cards) but haven't had the chance yet.

I'm not familiar with that. Can you describe it in terms of one of the
other systems, by comparison or contrast?

--
\ "What if the Hokey Pokey IS what it's all about?" -- Anonymous |
`\ |
_o__) |
Ben Finney
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David Johnston

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Since: Apr 14, 2006
Posts: 181



(Msg. 8) Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:55 am
Post subject: Re: A cornucopia of magic systems [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 31 Jul 2006 12:38:22 -0700, "Peter Meilinger"
<p_meilinger RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:

>Ben Finney wrote:
>> Howdy all,
>>
>> GURPS Basic Set outlines a college-categorised, spell-based magic
>> system; this is expanded in GURPS Magic, and an alternative
>> Improvisational Magic system is detailed.
>>
>> Other magic systems, of greater and lesser compatibility with Magic,
>> are detailed in other sourcebooks: Spirits, Religion, Cabal, etc.
>>
>> How much have you enjoyed each of the available magic systems in
>> various GURPS books? What type of campaigns have they worked best in?
>
>I like a lot of the various GURPS magical systems, but the one
>thing that's always annoyed me is that not a single one of them
>is truly generic and universal. They're specific systems with
>specific rules rather than a general framework that would
>allow you to create any type of magical system you want.
>For that reason, I like the Hero rules more when I'm trying
>to create or emulate a certain type of magic.

I hate the Hero rules when trying to do magic. It all comes out as
superpowers. You never get the feeling that it's what your character
knows that matters skill roll or no skill roll.
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copeab

External


Since: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 657



(Msg. 9) Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:59 am
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Ben Finney wrote:
> "copeab@yahoo.com" <copeab RemoveThis @yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > Ben Finney wrote:
> > > How much have you enjoyed each of the available magic systems in
> > > various GURPS books? What type of campaigns have they worked best
> > > in?
> >
> > I'm using the ritual magic system from Spirits in my Weird World War
> > II campaign because I wanted something less flashy than the default
> > magic system. It has worked very well so far.
>
> That seems to be what draws many people to the spirit magic system:
> the possibility to integrate magic more subtly into a setting, but
> still with very powerful effects.
>
> Which agencies use magic in your setting? The Thule Group? The
> Kremlin? The Allies?

The Soviets tend more towards psionics, the rest use ritual magic.I
haven't decided yet if I want a German group to use a variation of rune
magic. Still, mages/psis are fairly rare.

> How has this affected the feel of the setting? How has it affected the
> power level?

It hasn't affected either yet. Currently it is March 1941 and both PCs
are America civilians (a Shinto priest and a professor of
archaeology/linguistics).

> Is it on a par with the TL7 technology, or is it more
> subtle and less reliable?

More subtle but fairly reliable.

> > > To what extent have you combined these various magic systems with
> > > other supernatural power systems (psionics, super-powers,
> > > mysterious technology, etc.)? How did it work out?
> >
> > My oldest GURPS setting still going* uses the default magic system
> > (with some changes**) along with psionics. The mix, has for the most
> > part, worked out well. It should be noted that while magic only
> > reappeared in the setting in 2007 (where the world's mana level got
> > raised by one level), magic and psionics are both generally
> > understood and detectable by science.
>
> Cute. Was this planned in advance, or was magic added to develop the
> existing setting further?

Planned from the start. The beginning year for the campaign was 2048.

> What is the current game-time, i.e. how many
> years have people had to deal with the combination of magic and
> psionics?

Approximately 40 years. The period from about 2010-2020 is known as
"The Collapse" as many governments fell, unable to deal with the influx
of magic and magical creatures. Frex the fall of the US government came
with it tried to forcibly remove a couple hundred thousand dwarves in
the Rockies -- the US Army ceased to exist after the final battle).

> > I've really wanted to use hex magic from GURPS Deadlands: Weird West
> > (with cards) but haven't had the chance yet.
>
> I'm not familiar with that. Can you describe it in terms of one of the
> other systems, by comparison or contrast?

It's a little like the default magic system, but with no prerequisites,
and drawing a poker hand from a normal deck of cards (the better the
hand, the better effect the spell has).

Brandon
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copeab

External


Since: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 657



(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:25 am
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Paul Colquhoun wrote:
> On 1 Aug 2006 03:59:04 -0700, copeab RemoveThis @yahoo.com <copeab RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> |
> | Ben Finney wrote:
> |
> |> Is it on a par with the TL7 technology, or is it more
> |> subtle and less reliable?
> |
> | More subtle but fairly reliable.
>
> Have you read _The Atrocity Archives_ by Charlie Stross?

Never heard of it.

Brandon
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Wylie

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Since: Jul 07, 2005
Posts: 70



(Msg. 11) Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:30 am
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Ben Finney wrote:
> "Wylie" <wylie72.DeleteThis@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > We once had a lot of fun using 3rd ed psionics as magic in a
> > low-magic swords & sorcery type setting. It reflected the flexible
> > and aspected kinds of magic pretty well.
>
> I expect it would have been more akin to the "sorcerous", manipulative
> magic style rather than flamboyant elemental powers.
>
> Did the GM employ a distrust of magic users by segments of the
> population? Psionic "magicians" sound much more open to discrimination
> and bigotry.
>

It was a Conan-flavored (well, Thundar flavored really) so magicians
were rare and "seperate" from common people.

> > Ever since then I've toyed with a fantasy/traveller crossover where
> > the elves/dwarves/orcs etc were specialized breeds of human
> > developed by the ancients and "magic" is psionic based.
>
> Would this take place in the Third Imperium? How would the Imperium
> feel about two independent psionic groups -- the Zhodani and the
> Tolkeini -- on different parts of their border?
>

World would have been out in the frontier, undiscovered. My plan would
have been to have the players' Traveller characters discover their
"fantasy" characters.

Tolkeini - I like that.

-wylie
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Elvis

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Since: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 75



(Msg. 12) Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:24 am
Post subject: Re: A cornucopia of magic systems [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Wylie wrote:
> Ben Finney wrote:
> > "Wylie" <wylie72.RemoveThis@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> > > We once had a lot of fun using 3rd ed psionics as magic in a
> > > low-magic swords & sorcery type setting. It reflected the flexible
> > > and aspected kinds of magic pretty well.
> >
> > I expect it would have been more akin to the "sorcerous", manipulative
> > magic style rather than flamboyant elemental powers.
> >
> > Did the GM employ a distrust of magic users by segments of the
> > population? Psionic "magicians" sound much more open to discrimination
> > and bigotry.
> >
>
> It was a Conan-flavored (well, Thundar flavored really) so magicians
> were rare and "seperate" from common people.
Alternative Magic systems - My head 'hurts' ! I just tried to learn
Microsoft Access as a
CUSTOMER - DRIVEN - CUSTOM DESIGN PROCCESS in only 4 weeks in a
fast-paced
summer school environment! I for one do NOT have the time for
"Alternative Magic Systems"! Microsoft Access + 3-4 other Microsoft
Products are ALL THE 'MAGIC' I have
time for!!!! esviesso.RemoveThis@yahoo.com
>
> > > Ever since then I've toyed with a fantasy/traveller crossover where
> > > the elves/dwarves/orcs etc were specialized breeds of human
> > > developed by the ancients and "magic" is psionic based.
> >
> > Would this take place in the Third Imperium? How would the Imperium
> > feel about two independent psionic groups -- the Zhodani and the
> > Tolkeini -- on different parts of their border?
> >
>
> World would have been out in the frontier, undiscovered. My plan would
> have been to have the players' Traveller characters discover their
> "fantasy" characters.
>
> Tolkeini - I like that.
>
> -wylie
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Peter Meilinger

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Since: Nov 16, 2005
Posts: 70



(Msg. 13) Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:03 pm
Post subject: Re: "Generic" magic (was: Re: A cornucopia of magic systems) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Ben Finney wrote:
> "Peter Meilinger" <p_meilinger DeleteThis @hotmail.com> writes:
For that reason, I like the Hero
> > rules more when I'm trying to create or emulate a certain type of
> > magic.
>
> Is that truly "universal" though, in the GURPS sense? Is it truly a
> single system that smoothly handles all the different types of magic
> currently divided among disparate systems in GURPS?

It's handled every magical system I've tried to emulate better
than any other game system I'm familiar with. It probably can't
do, say, the GURPS Ritual Magic system better than the
GURPS rules do, but that's because the variou GURPS rules
are specifically set up for one kind of magic and the HERO
rules are trying to give you the framework to create absolutely
anything you want. There is a bit too much genericity,
if that's a word, in HERO, but I like that lots better than
having to create a brand new system from scratch
every time I want to fiddle with an idea for a magical
system that isn't already covered by pre-existing rules.

Basically, it's very much a tastes vary situation. There
are a lot of fantasy/magical settings that I'd prefer to
use GURPS for over HERO. The various GURPS
magical rules I'm familiar with are pretty damned good.
If I want to do something not covered by those rules,
though, I'd probably try it in HERO first, because
those rules at least meet me halfway when it comes
to creating something entirely new.

> How is it different to creating a "magic system" from GURPS Powers?

I have no idea, not being familiar with GURPS Powers. Could be
it addresses all my concerns. Be pretty cool if it did.

> I ask partly because I suspect that it strongly favours particular
> modes of magic at the expense of others, but also partly because I'm
> not very familiar with the Hero system.

It probably does favor some over others, but I've never noticed
any problems. Whether that means the rules are darn close
to perfect for everyone or just for me is the question there.

Pete
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Peter Meilinger

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Since: Nov 16, 2005
Posts: 70



(Msg. 14) Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:08 pm
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Jefferson wrote:
> Peter Meilinger wrote:
>
> > I like a lot of the various GURPS magical systems, but the one
> > thing that's always annoyed me is that not a single one of them
> > is truly generic and universal. They're specific systems with
> > specific rules rather than a general framework that would
> > allow you to create any type of magical system you want.
>
> So what? I've never seen a rules framework for affecting the
> world that would enable to create any system they wanted.

And for that reason a game that calls itself "Generic" and
"Universal" shouldn't try to live up to those terms when it
comes to magic systems?

> _Mage
> The Ascension_ comes the closest, but even it has its problems.
> Frankly, creating a new magic system is easy. What _I_ want is a
> framework for creating any system of technology you want.
> _That's_ a far more worthwhile project than a framework for magic
> systems.

Not if you're more interested in magic than technology, it
isn't. If you want a stereotypical fantasy game, whatever
the heck that is, a ruleset that kicks ass when creating
high technology won't really be all that useful.

> > For that reason, I like the Hero rules more when I'm trying
> > to create or emulate a certain type of magic.
>
> Hero rules are about the worst possible when it comes to
> emulating skill-based magic.

And I disagree. What are the odds, huh?

> _GURPS Thaumatology_ will cover a large number of options for
> magic system that GMs can mix and match to build unique magic
> systems.

Sounds cool. When's it coming out? The HERO rules that I
think do a pretty good job have been out for over 15 years,
after all. You gotta admit that gives them an edge over GURPS
rules that don't exist yet.

When did HERO's Big Blue Book come out? I want to say '89.
Maybe '90. I'm pretty sure it was my freshman year, anyway.

Pete
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Steffan O'Sullivan

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Since: Jan 08, 2005
Posts: 8



(Msg. 15) Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:55 pm
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Jefferson wrote:
>
>_GURPS Thaumatology_ will cover a large number of options for
>magic system that GMs can mix and match to build unique magic
>systems.

That really should be _GURPS Thaumaturgy_. Thaumatology is the
study of magic (without necessarily being able to cast a spell);
Thaumaturgy is the working of magic. I assume the book will cover
how to work magic more than simply studying it...

--
Steffan O'Sullivan | "If I should pass the tomb of Jonah
sos.DeleteThis@panix.com | I would stop there and sit for awhile;
www.panix.com/~sos | Because I was swallowed one time deep in the dark
Plymouth, NH, USA | And came out alive after all." -Carl Sandburg
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Deliberate amnesia? - Hey gang, I'm trying to figure out how to represent (in 3ed, if possible, but I can backdate a 4ed mechanic if neccesary) a case of amnesia where the character has deliberately and methodically erased his own past from his memory. It's a TL 3 society..

TEMPLATE: Tough Mer ( as in... Mermaid Duuh!)GURPS - TEMPLATE: Tough Mer (Mermaid) All Characteristics 11 or above cost 60 points ((Mer genetic weeding is done by GREAT WHITE SHARKS, & others....)) Amphibious cost 10 points,DR 5 scales cost 25 (no they are NOT turtle shell I just checked), Nictitating....

A Song Of Ice And Fire's Dire Wolves template - As per subject, I'm trying to build a Dire Wolf PC for a campaign in the setting of A Song Of Ice And Fire, the popular book by Martin. I'll build this racial template, but since I've not a great knowledge of the book series, I'd ask help from you in..
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